iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
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1 edit | DSL Deployment - How hard w\Verizon as the ILEC?
So Verizon is grooming the lines in my hometown, and will be making DSL available soonish (end of month probably). So at that point the phone lines will be good enough quality to allow for DSL from the CO to a lot of town...
So the company I'm working with back home is thining of deploying some sort of IP services to businesses. Wireless is one option, however it would seem to me that DSL should be pursued if line conditions are decent, due to lower startup costs (pull bandwidth into the CO, put a DSLAM in the CO, start selling) and no spectrum sharing issues.
So, assuming we went the DSLAM colo route and had enough bandwidth available near (but not at) the CO, how much work would it take to
a) Get Verizon to give us pairs to work with
b) Get the DSLAM collocated and bandwidth cross-connected to the CO (wireless should be fine...it's a short link...maybe even fiber)
Also
c) What DSLAMs would be good options? We'd have ADSL2+ vs. the competitors (Verizon and Windstream) not having it, however to get a real competitive edge we'd want something that could do Annex M. We could then offer 10/2 DSL to give customers a cheaper, our-brand option vs. TWC's $200 10/1.5 cable connection.
d) How hard would it be to do G-Bond ADSL2+ Annex M line bonding? Doing such a thing would allow for 20/3 or maybe even 20/5 speeds over a copper loop for a decent distance. If we could get to 20/5 we'd be faster than anything in the state other than FiOS and the odd cooperative's fiber-powered service. The advantage to that of course is being able to compete on features rather than price on the business side of things; 20/5 for half the price of a T1 sounds like an attractive offering.
Would becoming a DLEC be required to get something like this working? How much work is that? WS is a legacy (pre-Windstream, pre-being-bought-by-Valor) DLEC here but they're still running G.Lite 1.5/512 to my knowledge, for $50 per month. Their only advantage over TWC is TWC prices themselves out of the market.
Also, is this DSLAM any good for that sort of thing (probably not but just asking):
»www.dsl-warehouse.com/product_in···8fe627e6
It's small, but I figure it'd be a nice starting point. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | Re: [Tech Ops] ADSL2+ Annex M
Or maybe this?
»www.zhone.com/products/Bitstorm-RP/ |
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Inssomniak
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON | reply to iansltx
Im not sure in the states how it works, but in Canada its a nightmare, expensive and you have to be a CLEC. |
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mtroup
Marty
Premium
join:2007-06-28
Hermitage, AR
| reply to iansltx
Re: DSL Deployment - How hard w\Verizon as the ILEC?
There are numerous threads about this, including some of my own. You almost always have to be a CLEC (I originally found a loophole, then they changed their tariffs after the PSC told them I was correct).. I got a quote for $5000 out the door to become a CLEC.. in the state of AR you have to have a lawyer file and make and claims for you if you are a corporation so I figure I'd spend that much if I did the paperwork and had to hire someone to file it.. also it takes about 6 months here.. but all states are different. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | Hmm, anything about being a DLEC. I've seen your threads but couldn't find them offhand. Also, I'm dealing with Verizon, which is probably a lot different than a small telco... |
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bzmeteorite
join:2006-02-15
Nipomo, CA
| reply to mtroup
said by mtroup  :There are numerous threads about this, including some of my own. You almost always have to be a CLEC (I originally found a loophole, then they changed their tariffs after the PSC told them I was correct).. I got a quote for $5000 out the door to become a CLEC.. in the state of AR you have to have a lawyer file and make and claims for you if you are a corporation so I figure I'd spend that much if I did the paperwork and had to hire someone to file it.. also it takes about 6 months here.. but all states are different. Which ILEC are you dealing with and can you disclose how much you're paying for a dry line?
--
What happens when you combine common sense and an outspoken personality? |
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mtroup
Marty
Premium
join:2007-06-28
Hermitage, AR
| reply to iansltx
said by iansltx :Hmm, anything about being a DLEC. I've seen your threads but couldn't find them offhand. Also, I'm dealing with Verizon, which is probably a lot different than a small telco... Actually most all ILECS operate similarly.. and with the bigger ones you are going to have more trouble because they have more finances to fight 
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by DLEC? |
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mtroup
Marty
Premium
join:2007-06-28
Hermitage, AR
| reply to bzmeteorite
said by bzmeteorite :Which ILEC are you dealing with and can you disclose how much you're paying for a dry line? It's a smaller local ILEC and at this time I'm not a CLEC and they changed their tariffs which disallows me to purchase dry lines so I'm on hold for now. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | reply to mtroup
Not 100% sure either but that's how KTC (bought by Valor, merged to Windstream) has DSL here... |
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| reply to iansltx
said by iansltx :Hmm, anything about being a DLEC. I've seen your threads but couldn't find them offhand. Also, I'm dealing with Verizon, which is probably a lot different than a small telco... If you want to offer DSL with your own DSLAM you will need to become a CLEC (a DLEC most likely only offers DSL, most CLECs do both), Verizon won't allow you to connect anything to the cable plant without it.
What needs to happen to do this varies from state to state but essentially will require the creation of a corporation and then the use of a telecom lawyer to help you go through the process.
Once that's done you can negotiate the colocation fees to put your equipment in their CO and then you will pay them a monthly fee for each line connected to your DSLAM. I wouldn't expect them to allow a wireless option, any connection that doesn't go through them might have challenges with them allowing you to install it.
I am curious why you think you'd be the only one doing ADSL 2+ when it's Verizon's technology for deploying DSL now? Granted you can innovate by offering bonding etc as well as possibly a lower price.
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CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
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| Sorry for not being specific. Verizon uses ADSL2+ now but their speeds don't reflect this (7 Mbps can be done over regular ADSL, though it goes out farther with ADSL2+).
The two things I'm curious about at this point are why nobody has done Annex M in the US that I know of (does it preclude POTS on the same phone line?) and what the going rate would be for leasing a loop from Verizon. If the pricing is similar to that of a retail Verizon DSL connection ($20ish epr month) things start to get pointless, but I'd think that around the $15 mark you could shoot for the high end of the market and win. |
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Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
| reply to iansltx
As those stated above, if you want inside the CO or 'direct' access to the copper, you'll have to become a CLEC. As far as I know becoming a DLEC is no different than a CLEC so there is no reason to limit yourself to data only.
I would forget trying to get wireless into the CO unless the CO has a tower already. Mounting on the building is usually not an option.
As far as DSLAM's, me personally, I would go with Occam. We have Occam, Ericsson, and Next-Level/Motorol DSLAMs. Physically the Occam gear is very flexible, you can purchase a 1U chasis or a 12U chasis, the cards themselves are interchangable. You are looking at ~$100 per port using a 6252 card (48 port adsl2+).
We've not used Annex-M, but have tested with line bonding (the occam supports line bonding). I suspect you get a lot of 'facilities not available' when trying to get more than a single copper pair to most residences. To do 20/5 you are going to be severly limited by distance 4-6kft (the upstream is gonna get you). Check some of my past post's, as I posted our results of line bonding.
I would avoid that dslam as it only has a 10/100 ethernet connection. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | Got it. So what about the Zhone (specifically the Bitstorm-RP)? It supports Annex M + Bonding...I'm realy curious how the Annex M upstream frequencies do at distance. I saw somewhere that they replace POTS frequencies on the line? |
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Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
| I've not dealt with the Zhone products personally but looking at the product docs it seems like it is a decent dslam - or at least has all the features that I would look for. I'm not registering to get the actual user manual but I would check to see how it would scale past a single unit.
Annex M takes away some of the lower bins from the downstream carrier and assigns them to the upstream carrier. Therefore I would suspect the fall off rate to be about the same as you would see with standard adsl2+. Upstream tends to carry better (percentage wise) since it's a lower frequency, but you're working with a lot less margin if you are wanting to push out 2+Mb/s and you're starting off with 3Mb/s max.. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | Thanks for the info. I'll probably go ahead and look through the user manuals to see what's up. I know they used to call themselves Paradyne, and as far as I know nobody has had any problems with them... |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | reply to Rhaas
I guess you're talking about the tests below:
»[Equipment] Adrenaline & Bonded DSL test results
??? |
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Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
| 
ADSL2+ Annex A | 
ADSL2+ Annex M | 
Annex M Profile - Annex A was the same. |
A full DB more attenuation when using Annex M on the upstream side.
Speed tests were 19M x 1.1M on Annex A, and 19M x 2.0M on Annex M. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
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| Interesting. However what's the big deal with a single db of attenuation over the lack thereof, when the connection provides 1 Mbps more on the upload side?
Thanks for doing the test. 35/4 at 11kfeet (bonded ADSL2+ Annex M) seems like an attractive proposition when the competition doesn't go above 2 Mbps up and 15 Mbps down... |
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Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
1 edit | Acutally it's 4db attentuation on the upstream, I was looking at the SNR margin when I wrote that - Looking at one thing and writing another, sorry.
Just like wireless you have to be careful of your SNR margins, too little margin and the modem re-syncs and become unstable. We use 6db SNR as the target, however we will begin to see issues at 4db or less. Generally I have my DSLAM's setup to begin fall back at 3db to slower speeds to increase the SNR. That 1db of SNR margin can easly be a go-nogo point. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO | Sure. The drastically decreased upstream SNR is interesting, however for businesses that are close-in bonded ADSL2+ Annex M seems promising. |
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