Zupper
Premium
join:2002-12-28
Novelty, OH
1 edit |  OT: Conserving Can Cost More
The general topic of conserving energy comes up here quite often, so this seems appropriate to post here.
I urge everyone to keep tabs on their local utilities, and do what ever possible to let your government regulators know you don't appreciate these shenanigans.
Here in Ohio, I have seen a few reports of the utilities complaining that they don't make enough money now due to conservation.
- The Water department said they will have to raise rates, because water usage is down.
- The electric company tried to enact a program where they would give everyone 2 "free" CFLs, and would consequently charge a total of about $21 over 3 years - to pay for the bulbs and the cost of energy that would not be used.
- Today, there was an article again about electric rates, where the utility wants the ability to jack up fees on an as needed basis to recoup their revenue due to conservation efforts reducing actual usage.
The consumer's incentive to use methods and devices to reduce energy use are based on the assumption that you will recoup the up front cost of said devices, and eventually save money. If the utilities are able to adjust their pricing to counteract drops in usage to achieve a fixed revenue, then all the cost savings assumptions are negated.
This kind of thinking needs to be stopped. |
|
Snakeoil
Taxes are Armed robbery.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Why do you think there have been talks about passing a law and putting GPS units in cars to track their mileage and tax the owners based on miles driven. Thanks to the hybrids and the push for plug in electric cars, tax income from gasoline will drop.
Hybrids under pay gas taxes anyhow. What I mean by that is you take a hybrid, compute the gas usage vs miles driven, ten compare that to a non-hybrid vehicle.
If driven properly, hybrids should be getting more mileage per gallon then a normal car.
So the same thinking would apply to utes..
The less usage, the loss of billing income to support the current equipment. The only way to recover the loss is to increase the rates.
Another example is cable. The more people in the neighborhood using cable, the cheaper it should be, the fewer using it, the higher the cost.
--
I want Obama money. "wheres it comming from?" I dunno, his stash. I don't care, I just want obama money. Shows the lack of education and the greed of people. Hand outs from the government comes from your pay check and wallet. Think about it. |
|
John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| reply to Zupper
The best place to voice your opinion is at the state PUC:
»www.naruc.org/commissions.cfm
Use this map to find the PUC in your state.
Here is the Wiki listing:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_uti···mmission
--
The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.
|
|
morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
·AT&T Southwest
2 edits | reply to Snakeoil
said by Snakeoil  The only way to recover the loss is to increase the rates.
uh, no. that's what utility companies want but that is not required. the population is growing as is our need for electricity and related energy is not decreasing. utility companies are doing fine. they haven't "lost" anything. |
|
disconnected
@snet.net
| reply to Zupper
The last ditch "scorched earth" tactic is to let them shut off your electricity and get an electric genset. Run it to pump water so you can take a shower and flush the toilet. Do everything else with battery power and solar chargers. It's austere, but it will save you thousands a year. |
|
Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage
| reply to Zupper
Propane companies are notorious for this, if you don't own your tank.
If you don't use a certain amount they will charge a low usage fee.
Those that don't charge a low usage fee will raise the price so high that it negates any savings that you make by using alternative fuel (wood, pellets etc).
Losing battle and a complete rip off. Only solution is to own your own tank where YOU shop around and call the shots. |
|
Lurch77
Stop looking at me.
Premium
join:2001-11-22
+44.88-87.89
| reply to Zupper
Electric companies around here want us to conserve energy because usage is getting close to the maximum they can provide with the plants they have. They don't want to spend the billions to build new energy plants. They don't tell us that though. They pretend it is because they want to save the earth.
--
"On a motorcycle, you're penetrating distance right along with the machine. In a car you're just a spectator; the windshield's like a TV." ~ Kenny "Von Dutch" Howard |
|
morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | So you want them to be honest and tell you that they don't want to build new plants and don't want to buy electricity from other providers? |
|
scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC | Yes - I want them to be honest |
|
Lurch77
Stop looking at me.
Premium
join:2001-11-22
+44.88-87.89 | reply to morbo
What's the difference? Would it change anything? No, it wouldn't. |
|
scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
| said by Lurch77 :What's the difference? Would it change anything? No, it wouldn't. It would make me feel better about granting a proposed rate increase for them, if necessary.
I'm not saying they're perfect angels (our power company's level payment plan is a joke for the consumer), and they are a business. But if they're asking for a rate increase - I want to see the honest reason for it.
And if state / federal government ever makes the GPS mandatory - that's the day they better delete the petroleum taxes per gallon. |
|
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| reply to Zupper
Oh Man, what a timely topic.
Read THIS CRAP AEP just sent me in Oklahoma:
"On September 15, 2009 PSO (Public Service company of Oklahoma, wholly owned subsidiary of AEP) filed and application to meet the Commissions rules for implementing energy efficiency and demand response programs (Read Smart meters and the like, peak time usage, off-peak usage etc etc) and for the recovery of program costs, lost revenues AND a shared savings incentive through the Demand Side Management Cost Recovery Rider (IE an added fee to bills to cover all costs related with demand side management)..... BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
What they are asking for is a RATE INCREASE to cover their "lost revenues" when Smart metering and other Demand Side management programs come into effect that allow Residents and Commercial clients to SAVE ENERGY expense.
W T F
That's like you spending $5k making your home more energy efficient and saving several hundred a month on energy bills only to have the Utility raise rates several hundred dollars per month to get back the "lost revenue" that you "cost" them.
WOW. Just WOW.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
|
|
panth1
The Coyote
join:2000-12-11
Boca Raton, FL
1 edit | reply to Zupper
Same B.S., same spin every year. Same old from the federal gov't, state, county, city, utility, bank, family. haha.
Our power utility has been on a rate increase marathon with the state public service commission.
They wanted customers to pay for a new gas pipeline, research in building a new nuclear power plant (lawyers and lobbyists), and pay the cost of building the power plant.
Oh yea, they also wanted to pass on the cost of flying their private jet to the PSU to lobby for the rates increases.
And two of the PSU members were tossed for being in bed with the power company. This came out during the media grilling them every day.
Yea, I fogot. We already got a water service increase due to lower revenue due to water restrictions. |
|
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN | reply to Zupper
I have a fixed charge of $17 on my electric bill every month... I could use no power and still be charged $17 every month.
I have all CFL's in my house but I doubt I save much because they keep playing with the energy rates. |
|
cowboyro
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| said by BlakePaulson :I have all CFL's in my house but I doubt I save much because they keep playing with the energy rates. You DO save. 4hrs/day of burning a 100W incandescent is ~12kWh so some $2/bulb/month. A comparable CFL would save you $1.50 from the $2 spent. You probably have more than 1 bulb burning at any given time. Sure when compared to a $300 bill it's almost nothing, but if you have only 6 such bulbs it's $100/year more in your pocket. Sure they will increase the rates, but you still pay less than what you'd pay when using incandescent  |
|
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN
 ·AT&T Wireless Broa..
·Charter Pipeline
| said by cowboyro :said by BlakePaulson :I have all CFL's in my house but I doubt I save much because they keep playing with the energy rates. You DO save. 4hrs/day of burning a 100W incandescent is ~12kWh so some $2/bulb/month. A comparable CFL would save you $1.50 from the $2 spent. You probably have more than 1 bulb burning at any given time. Sure when compared to a $300 bill it's almost nothing, but if you have only 6 such bulbs it's $100/year more in your pocket. Sure they will increase the rates, but you still pay less than what you'd pay when using incandescent Alright after a quick tally in my head here's how it breaks down:
4 - 23 watt cfls
7 - 9watt cfls
12 - 15 watt cfls
50 - 13watt cfls
I'm sure I'm missing more but basically every bulb that was at one point incandecent is now a cfl |
|
cowboyro
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| Question is how many of these are actually being used constantly?
You could replace say 3 bulbs in your attic but if you don't go there you'll likely never see any savings. Or you can replace the floodlights of your house that stay on from dusk to dawn and see savings immediately... |
|
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN
·AT&T Wireless Broa..
·Charter Pipeline
| I didn't include any bulbs that I have that are in storage spaces (IE hardly used.)
I didn't include flood lights but those are all CFL's as well (There are 4 sets of flood lights on my garage so 8 bulbs)
I have a 5 bedroom house with 3 stall garage.
My last electric bill was $80. I have two flatscreen TV's, a well, a water softener and electric water heater... I used 560KWH's on the last bill. |
|
Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Spring City, TN
·AT&T Southeast
| reply to Zupper
As far as electric goes unfortunately there isn't much you can do if in the end it comes to a rate increase. I mean sure you could move off the electric grid, but lets look at the other solutions:
Take example the average home setup to draw a maximum of 100 amps of 240volt power (we're not going to get involved about how that rarely happen in this segment). Our local poco charges around $500 for a new service setup (i didn't bother finding an average for this, as this one swings widely). Lets say this home, with electric heat and water, has an average usage base of 15 A/h @240v (3.6Kw/h) over the course of a month.
POCO Electric:
$500 Initial service setup (100Amp 240V service)
15 A/h x 240 x 24 / 1000 x $0.1205 (National KW/h average) x 30.5 = $317.54 Monthly
Natural Gas Home Generation
$7,559 Generac QuietSource Series™ 22 kW C.O.P Standby Power Generator
62.18 cubic ft/h (estimate of usage for 15A/h average) x 24 / 1000 x $15.15 (National Average p/ Thousand cubic feet) x 30.5 = $689.56 Monthly
LP Home Generation
$7,559 Generac QuietSource Series™ 22 kW C.O.P Standby Power Generator
0.66 G/h (estimate of usage for 15A/h average) x 24 x $2.216 (National average LP per Gallon) x 30.5 = $1070.59 Monthly
Diesel Fuel Home Generation
$10,499.00 Powermax PMD 20 17.6 KW C.O.P Power Generator
0.687 G/h (estimate of usage for 15A/h average) x 24 x $2.790 (National average of Diesel Fuel) x 30.5 = $1403.05 Monthly
Genset prices don't include the need for oil change and replacement, filter replacement, and general maintenance...
Looks like even with the price hikes... I'll be with the poco for at least a little bit. |
|
Zupper
Premium
join:2002-12-28
Novelty, OH
1 edit | reply to cowboyro
said by cowboyro .... Sure they will increase the rates, but you still pay less than what you'd pay when using incandescent But that is the whole point of my original post, that this is not necessarily true. The utility wants to use the concept of charging you for power you didn't even use!
So, say they are charging you X dollars for Y units used. You start conserving energy, and now only use Z units (which is less than the original Y), but they play with the rates and fees to make you still pay X dollars. This is regardless of how you saved energy, but you didn't save squat.
Yes, if there was just a normal rate increase, then using less energy must save money, or at least avoid paying more. Again, it is this dynamic billing method that essentially charges for unused power (so the utility can keep a constant revenue) means you can't win. |
|
