dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
13047
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

3 edits

BlakePaulson

Member

Installing a second electric stove... breaker box full...

Hello,

I am getting ready to rent my basement and am adding an electric stove in the basement (already have an electric upstairs.) The original owners had a natural gas stove downstairs and it would have been fine had it not set off all the smoke detectors in the house when used (probably due to ventilation issues.)

Since I'll have a renter who's probably never dealt with gas anyway I picked up an electric stove... they ran the wiring for the stove however it is not hooked up and my main panel is full (they ran so many circuits for the house it's crazy... it's a 5 bedroom 3 stall garage and the garage has it's own subpanel) so there is no place to add another 50amp breaker in the box for the second stove.

What I'm wondering is do I absolutely have to add a subpanel box and offload two circuits onto the subpanel plus the electric stove (so that I can put in a breaker for the subpanel in the main panel) or can I put in 1 100amp circuit breaker and connect both stoves into that one 100amp breaker (I was thinking of picking up a 2 pole square D 100amp breaker.)

I know electricity isn't anything to fool around with... I'm just wondering if it's doable or if I definitely have to install a subpanel.

The main panel is 150amp panel (ironically enough the subpanel in the garage is a 200amp panel and has more openings.)

Thanks for any help!
JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

Premium Member

No you absolutely can not do that. The breaker is designed to protect the wire. Unless the wires are up-sized enough to handle 100A that's not a good idea. Let alone the issue of shoving two sets of wires under one screw terminal.

You have a few options depending on what you want to do. Since the garage panel is larger and has more capacity you could swap panels. This could also end up being the most expensive option considering you probably shouldn't be doing this yourself, you would need to get someone out there to do it and also shut off the mains to be on the safe side which means getting the PoCo involved.

Your best option is seeing if your panel can take a multi circuit breaker. I'm not exactly sure what these are called. Basically they are the same size as a standard single pole breaker but have two throws for two circuits. Another similar option is replacing any 1" breakers with 1/2" breakers if your box supports them.

This is an example of one of the "dual circuit" breakers. They look identical to a double pole breaker but they don't have a common trip handle tie. »www.hardwareandtools.com ··· /6943062. I just searched Google for "dual circuit breaker" and it was one of the results.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

I was guessing I probably couldn't do it... I just figured it didn't hurt to ask.

I also thought of switching around the panels but that's something I couldn't do and I just wouldn't do.

It's not going to be outrageous to put in a subpanel and in all honesty it's not worth ruining appliances or electrocuting myself to save $150 or $200 bucks to have someone do it... I just figured if possible to use 100amp circuit breaker and connect both I'd do so.

Both sets of wires are AWG 6 wiring...
JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707

Premium Member

If the wire is already run then there is no need to do a sub panel unless you can't get any 1/2" breakers or the dual circuit breakers. If you do run a sub panel I would probably put it in the basement somewhere, move all the basement circuits to it and let it be a true sub panel for the basement. That way if the renter trips something they don't have to come bother you to reset it. Of course if the main is already in the basement this idea is moot. Plus it could be more costly than you want but honestly I think it would be the best option.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

Box is already in the basement so it's pretty much moot.

So I'm going to pick up some dual 20amp circuit breakers and get an electrician to come in and do the other work.

I figure it can't take more than an hour to add one a 50amp breaker and move a few other circuits around in the box and hook up the 4 prong range connector...

I'm pretty sure I could do it safely but the idea of still having the live wires coming into the box just scares the hell out of me... $50 to $80 is much better than dying or ruining something else

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson
Did anyone do calculations to see if your existing 150amp panel can handle another full 50amp draw? Hopefully you don't have electric heat on top of two electric stoves, plus all the other electric devices.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to JoelC707

MVM

to JoelC707
said by JoelC707:

unless you can't get any 1/2" breakers or the dual circuit breakers.
You are referring to circuit breakers sometimes called tandem breakers, piggy-back breaker, etc.

The panel may not be suitable to accept them, and their use in your panel may violate also violate the NEC if your locality is using previous versions before the 2008 NEC. Check with an electrician before you buy the breakers.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

1 recommendation

nunya to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson

The main panel is 150amp panel (ironically enough the subpanel in the garage is a 200amp panel and has more openings.)


You need a load calculation. There's a good chance you are overloading you're service. 2 dwellings (which is what your home has become) on a 150A service, plus it sounds like some hoaky arrangement to begin with regarding the sub.

Your plan needs serious re-evaluation. You need a professional, not a yes man, to look the entire situation over. It would have been better to stick with gas. A PROPERLY functioning gas stove will not set off alarms.
Tyreman
join:2002-10-08
Cambridge, ON

Tyreman to BlakePaulson

Member

to BlakePaulson
Put the gas stove in your part, gas pipe it in.
your electric stove downstairs to renter use your old stove breaker, wire it in and there you go.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

said by cdru:

Did anyone do calculations to see if your existing 150amp panel can handle another full 50amp draw? Hopefully you don't have electric heat on top of two electric stoves, plus all the other electric devices.
I don't have electric heat. Main appliances that use electric are as follows:

Electric stove, Air Conditioner, Water Heater, Washer, Dryer, Well Pump, Furnace (blower), Refrigerator (X2), Dishwashers (X2), Microwave (X2), Water softener (Only runs at 2AM)

The subpanel in the garage has a wall mount A/C unit and a Gas Furnace (electric blower) plus your typical setup for outlets, lights, and Garage Openers, and whatnot.
said by whizkid3:

said by JoelC707:

unless you can't get any 1/2" breakers or the dual circuit breakers.
You are referring to circuit breakers sometimes called tandem breakers, piggy-back breaker, etc.

The panel may not be suitable to accept them, and their use in your panel may violate also violate the NEC if your locality is using previous versions before the 2008 NEC. Check with an electrician before you buy the breakers.
I plan on double checking with an electrician before using tandem breakers... my house was built in 2000 however there are a lot of circuits that are wasted in the box (IE the furnace blower motor is on a 15A circuit by itself and two kitchen outlets downstairs are on their own 20A circuit... combining them shouldn't be an issue as the square d circuit breakers I have have two individual mount points.)
said by nunya:


The main panel is 150amp panel (ironically enough the subpanel in the garage is a 200amp panel and has more openings.)


You need a load calculation. There's a good chance you are overloading you're service. 2 dwellings (which is what your home has become) on a 150A service, plus it sounds like some hoaky arrangement to begin with regarding the sub.

Your plan needs serious re-evaluation. You need a professional, not a yes man, to look the entire situation over. It would have been better to stick with gas. A PROPERLY functioning gas stove will not set off alarms.
Both panels were signed off by a Minnesota state electrical inspector (they both have stickers on them along with the date and a signature.) Also prior to buying the house I had an electrician come in and he said adding another electric stove wouldn't be an issue I'd just need a subpanel box downstairs because the main panel is full (mainly due to the fact that the original electrician created so many individual circuits.)

It wasn't a freebee and cost $40 just to take 15 minutes to look it over and that was my main concern as to knowing if I could put in another stove.
said by Tyreman:

Put the gas stove in your part, gas pipe it in.
your electric stove downstairs to renter use your old stove breaker, wire it in and there you go.
I hate using a gas stove (I don't cook much but I'm just not fond of it.) I only plan on renting the basement for a few years... not long term but still will have a fridge and stove downstairs when the renters move out.

I like the idea of having two kitchens (was a selling point in my opinion) because that way in the summer when i don't have a renter I'd be able to cook downstairs without heating up the upstairs and whatnot.

---------

There are a lot of different power draws in the house but the odds of every single thing being on at one time are slim...
themagicone
join:2003-08-13
Osseo, MN

themagicone

Member

"I plan on double checking with an electrician before using tandem breakers... my house was built in 2000 however there are a lot of circuits that are wasted in the box (IE the furnace blower motor is on a 15A circuit by itself and two kitchen outlets downstairs are on their own 20A circuit... combining them shouldn't be an issue as the square d circuit breakers I have have two individual mount points.)"

State of MN (Maybe national code also) requires 2 dedicated circuits for kitchen outlets. Plus a lot of devices now require their own dedicated circuits, so it may seem a waste of circuits but it was done to code.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

said by themagicone:

"I plan on double checking with an electrician before using tandem breakers... my house was built in 2000 however there are a lot of circuits that are wasted in the box (IE the furnace blower motor is on a 15A circuit by itself and two kitchen outlets downstairs are on their own 20A circuit... combining them shouldn't be an issue as the square d circuit breakers I have have two individual mount points.)"

State of MN (Maybe national code also) requires 2 dedicated circuits for kitchen outlets. Plus a lot of devices now require their own dedicated circuits, so it may seem a waste of circuits but it was done to code.
I get that it was done the way it was for a reason (the bathroom outlets being on their own circuit and whatnot) I'm more frustrated with knowing whoever put the box in the first place didn't plan very far ahead.

The main panel should have been a 200amp right off the bat and should have contained more spaces.

The joys of buying a used house and not building your own.

Off to consult an electrician I go!

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson

my house was built in 2000 however there are a lot of circuits that are wasted in the box (IE the furnace blower motor is on a 15A circuit by itself and two kitchen outlets downstairs are on their own 20A circuit... combining them shouldn't be an issue as the square d circuit breakers I have have two individual mount points.)


Wrong on so many levels. It's quite the norm, and required in every jurisdiction I've seen, to have the blower on it's own circuit. Kitchen outlets are few per circuit because of high demand small appliances. 2 20 amp small appliance circuits are required by code. These may not go anywhere else but the dining room or pantry. Individual 20A bathroom circuit - required by code only for bathroom(s). "Double tapping" or "Double lugging" breakers is prohibited almost everywhere, whether or not the breaker allows it. Tandem breakers would be better suited if loading and the panel allow it.

You can come up with all kinds of excuses and schemes, but it doesn't change the fact that you have a 150 Amp panel now serving 2 dwelling units. My guess is this residence was never intended to be multi-family.


Off to consult an electrician I go!

Hopefully someone willing to tell you the truth.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to BlakePaulson

to BlakePaulson
said by BlakePaulson:

Off to consult an electrician I go!
This is the best thing you've said through all of this. Not being offensive, but some of your ideas such as doubling-up two stoves on a single breaker, combining your kitchen circuits and being miffed at the fact that "whoever put the box in the first place didn't plan very far ahead" are big red-flags to your lack of knowledge on the subject.

There's nothing wrong with that, as plenty of us are not experts in many subjects, but you are 100% correct that you need a qualified electrician to advise you and do the work. It would not be wise or safe for anyone to do it any other way.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

I may have made quite a few stupid comments but I wasn't going to do anything... I just wanted information so that when an electrician shows up I can ask questions to see if they can do tandems or not or what the scoop is.

I just didn't want to have an electrician come in and rip me off and by me pointing out incorrect things I've learned and haven't hurt myself or my house.

Thanks for all of the information and whatnot. I'll post an update as soon as I find out what the verdict is and then I'll take pictures.
c4junk
Premium Member
join:2004-05-08
Orlando, FL

c4junk to BlakePaulson

Premium Member

to BlakePaulson
Could you pull a sub panel off the garage to the basement?
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

I don't think it'd work like that because then I'd have to put a bigger circuit breaker in the main panel (they're currently running the subpanel in the garage off of a 50amp circuit breaker and they have some of the recepticles in the garage sharing off of other circuits in the house...)

I think it'd just be better if I take pictures so you guys know the setup.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

mattmag to BlakePaulson

to BlakePaulson

I think you are actually very wise, and realize when you need a pro. Which, by the way, I am not; just a mildly-experienced DIY type that also knows when to call in the cavalry!

Here are a couple thoughts of mine, that I would discuss with the electrician if it was me:

First, ask him to determine what the exact capacity of the service drop to your home is. As the pros here have noted, it is not logical to have a 200A sub off of a 150A service. Something is amiss there. Almost sounds like the 200A was an extra piece someone had lying around...

Second, I would get two opinions and estimates if possible, just to help assure yourself you are not getting ripped-off. The vast majority of pros aren't rip-off artists, but like any other trade, they do exist. Protect yourself if you have doubts! Maybe consult friends who have had work done in the past to get recommendations. I am lucky, in that my area is very rural, and bad workmanship and price-gouging catches up to a guy pretty fast.

Third, and this is just personal preference, but I try to avoid tandem breakers if possible. Think of it as putting 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound box. It can be crammed in, but it really isn't as good.

Last, as noted already, you now have a multi-family dwelling, and those often require different things to be in place to make them legal. The last thing you want is putting your financial life at risk by exposing yourself to a lawsuit from a tenant that experiences damages due to something you omitted in the electrical system.

Get er' done, but done right, and up to all applicable codes and standards, and you can sleep peacefully at night!
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

Thanks for the advice...

The following link is a directory of pictures I took (I'll explain each one on here.)

»www.ifixipodsfast.com/electrical

Picture 1 is of the main panel minus the cover (located in the basement in the utility room)

Picture 2 is the description of each of the circuit breakers.

Picture 3 is the subpanel in the Garage (it's got 10 extra slots)

Picture 4 is the description of each of the circuit breakers in the subpanel.

Picture 5 is a closeup of the breakers in the subpanel (can see the 200amp breaker at the bottom.)

Picture 6 is the sticker from the state of minnesota (it's on both panels)

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson
The garage sub is not a 200A sub. It is a 50A sub of the main panel according to your directory. The 200A breaker is because someone wasn't smart enough to install a main lug panel. The 200A breaker has no use whatsoever except as a local disconnect. The true rating of the panel is the lower of: Panel rating (in your case 200A) or feeder rating (in your case 50A).

That in itself isn't enough to flunk an inspection. The poor / sloppy workmanship and double lugging in the main panel is certainly enough to flunk an inspection just about Anywhere, USA.
It's unfortunate your local inspection authority has such low standards, although I'm hoping from the age of the stickers (9 and 3 years), that the crap work was done after the inspector saw the box.
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

I'm well aware that the garage is really only a 50amp because that's all it connects to in the main panel. I was simply meaning that I find it odd that they put a huge panel in my garage that is capable of 200 amps and a 150amp box with less spaces as the main.

So in order to bring this up to snuff would it be better for the electrician to put all the basement lights/recepticles and appliances in the subpanel?
Also would it be wise to put in a 200amp main breaker (I'm guessing that's what the service is) or is 150 going to cut it?

Thanks

Killa200
Premium Member
join:2005-12-02
TN

Killa200

Premium Member

would be ideal if you could get all the basement circuits dropped into the sub panel and then have it reran to the meter pan since its a 200amp panel in its own. Then you could remove the 50A double pole feeding the sub panel from your main and have room for growth later on.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson
It would be better to have a 2nd service strictly for the tenant and let them pay the bill. In some places it is required.

Your main is a 30 space panel. I'm not fond of Square D, so I do not install it. It's not very popular in this neck of the woods. Someone else may be able to chime in as to whether that panel will allow tandem breakers. A popular configuration amongst resi manufacturers is a 30/40 panel, with the bottom 10 spaces (5+5) able to accept tandem breakers. Yours may or may not have this feature.

If you have to upgrade to 200 A service, which you may, then you can put in a 40 space panel. It's normally cheaper to buy an entire new panel than to upgrade the breaker. I had to replace a smoked 200A breaker this morning. It was $250 for the breaker. But if I bought a new panel with a breaker already in it, it's $126. So now I have a bunch of empty panel boxes stacking up in storage.

You should try and keep everything in one box if possible. Sub panels can make for some ugly looking installs. It's nicer to keep everything conveniently "under one roof".
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

I get what you're saying... see the original electrician that I had came over said there wasn't anything wrong with squared breakers and thought they were ok.

I might take your advice and have a 40 panel box with a 200amp main on it... they aren't too bad of a price at menards but I don't know how well electricians like when you have your own stuff and then tell them to install it into what you provide...

I know I'm not that fond of when customers send in iPods with parts they bought elsewhere that were supposedly "working" and they're crap.

So if I get the main panel switched out will I have to contact my poco or will the electrician get someone out to do that?

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to BlakePaulson

MVM

to BlakePaulson
Getting you own materials wont help anything unless your electrician has a serious markup, in which case you need a new electrician. We get stuff from the supply house much cheaper than Lowe's Depot Menards.

The power company must be involved with any service upgrade to make sure the service drop and transformer can handle the extra load plus disconnect the service to allow a proper upgrade. Normally it requires a permit. Anyone avoiding either of these is trying to pull a scam (not really upgrading the service, only the panel itself).
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

BlakePaulson

Member

Alright... money pit here I come!

Thanks for all of your help nunya. I really truly appreciate it!
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

3 edits

patcat88 to nunya

Member

to nunya
said by nunya:


my house was built in 2000 however there are a lot of circuits that are wasted in the box (IE the furnace blower motor is on a 15A circuit by itself and two kitchen outlets downstairs are on their own 20A circuit... combining them shouldn't be an issue as the square d circuit breakers I have have two individual mount points.)


Wrong on so many levels. It's quite the norm, and required in every jurisdiction I've seen, to have the blower on it's own circuit.
Even though my oil steam boiler takes a puny 3 amps, there is logic behind the dedicated circuit. What if you leave for a few days, something trips the boiler circuit (wirenut comes loose, AFCI trips, GFCI trips from undiscovered leak into a wall, dog runs into wall and badly installed wirenut comes loose, someone nails something to your house and goes through romex, earthquake, chinese appliance turns on and shorts, a transformer in the cable box power supply shorts, table leg gives, table and CRT guillotine extension cord and it shorts, I'm out of ideas) come home, all the pipes have burst?

Regarding your kitchen circuits. I will just say this, unless you had an extra circuit installed, and its not being used anymore, there are no other candidate circuits to combine/remove. Houses nowadays only get built to code minimum. The code is the bare minimum, not the "best" or "adequate" an electrical system could be. You really think the developer will install 1 more circuit than code requires?

The kitchen contractor of the former owner of my house decided to steal a circuit for the now abandoned dishwasher. Now 1/2 the 1st floor and 1/4 the 2nd floor is on 1 circuit. Not cool. The 2 20 amp kitchen counter circuit rule didn't exist when the house or the kitchen was remodeled.

Putting the stove on the "200 amp" sub panel isn't happening. That "200 amp" sub panel is just 50 amps for your purpose. You could upgrade that 6 gauge to 1/0 gauge, then install a 150 amp breaker in the main panel (will it let you? check its label, if not, use 1 gauge and 125 amp breaker), but the difficulty and cost, that just makes it smarter and cheaper to replace the main panel. My generic opinion is, unless you trip the main breaker, you don't need a service upgrade. But do a test, turn everything on, all ovens on, all ACs on, etc. If you feel confident, use a clamp amp meter. See if you can get the main breaker to trip. If after turning every last thin on, you can't reach 75% of your service's rating, don't waste money on a service upgrade. Some electricians are quick to sell them on you. There is nothing evil with many sub panels, or daisy chaining them (a star is smarter than a daisy chain). Whats evil is having load permutations that trip them, and undersizing the feeders to those sub panels. Officially, the NEC has rules for the minimum amount of circuits needed in a home and where. Your home already meets that (built in 2000). My opinion is, any circuits you add, they all will be dedicated for particular reasons, you can judge yourself if there is any chance they ever will be on at the same time. If in doubt, assume they will be on at the same time in calculating your feeder size. My knowledge of the NEC load calculations rules is limited.

Back to that 200 amp panel. I wonder if its screwed to the wall, or it stands tall and proud on its 2 feet. I also can't pick out the feeder on it.

No homes electrical system is designed to have all circuit at 100%. You would need a drop from the street atleast as thick as a toilet paper roll. But let your main panel be the limiting factor that knocks down the circuits' amperage into the master breaker amperage, not your sub panel feeders/breakers.

Replacing the main panel, its smarter to do a service upgrade at the same time. Adding a sub panel next to the main panel and moving 15/20 amp circuits over with a nice large feeder (atleast 50 amps) to the main panel is the cheap way out. AFAIK, you can fill the whole 150 amp main panel with 100 amp breakers going to sub panels. It will look even more wrong, but you can do it. Another idea is tandem breakers. Square D makes them. Your panel has none right now. They are the really cheap way out. And code compliant usually (check the paper label of the panel for how many and where you can use tandem breakers in the panel).

Since you want to rent out. Ask about a 320 amp service. Screw 200. 200 is so dated. What about electric car charging? or your arc welder? or your car lift? Or oversized air compressor? Multiple washing machines. Heated pool. And 2 families. You don't want to do a service upgrade again in a few years. Ask about 320 amps. Its the next level up from 200 amp.

Also properly installing a gas stove or multiple gas stoves is the best way to go $ wise. Gas is cheaper than electricity. Hiring a gas plumber I think will be cheaper than a service change. Buying a generator and running it off natural gas and having your home off the grid is slightly cheaper than buying power from the power company. Fix your smoke detector problem. I believe building code requires exhaust hoods over all stoves. Not sure if unvented non-oxygen deprived gas stoves are supposed to trigger smoke detectors in the first place. Or someone is burning food or using dirty pots with caked food which causes smoke to set off the smoke detector.

Killa200
Premium Member
join:2005-12-02
TN

Killa200

Premium Member

said by patcat88:

Buying a generator and running it off natural gas and having your home off the grid is slightly cheaper than buying power from the power company.
I call you on that »Re: OT: Conserving Can Cost More
BlakePaulson
join:2008-08-06
Alexandria, MN

1 edit

BlakePaulson to patcat88

Member

to patcat88
I do say a lof of things and then 10 seconds later realize they sounded stupid (I guess my brain likes to play jokes on me) and therefore the furnace idea was a stupid one. Being in Minnesota you don't want that happening in the winter unless you want a disaster on your hands.

Speaking to power usage... Currently I'm unmarried, am 23, work from home, and try to use as little electricity as possible.

I've lived here for 6 months now and I'm not motivated enough to run the dishwasher at the same time as the clothes washer or dryer... I rarely cook... while all of the appliances do get used at some point I can't think of one time where everything was on at the same time.

Now as for the renting situation... this is about as informal of a renting situation as possible. I'm pretty much renting it out dirt cheap to someone I know because I'm sticking about 6 grand into getting it completely finished (drywall was up but it had shitty cheap doors, horrible carpet glued to the cement floor, no trim, floor boards, no cupboards, no fridge for downstairs even though the previous owner had one down there.)

So the only new add I can see is an additional Fridge (which will be on it's own circuit for the kitchen downstairs as each kitchen has two dedicated circuits) and a stove. The renter is using my washer/dryer so aside from it getting used more there isn't more than one.

The range situation... the most I've used my stove for is cooking pizza and the occational hotdish... I'm not sure how much the renter plans on cooking but I'm guessing she'll cook more than I do.

As soon as I get everything set I'm going to turn both ovens on at the same time and a dishwasher and dryer along with having the furnace go just to see if it can handle it... if not then I'll have to see about getting a higher service.

And as for gas... works fine for the furnace and I'm sure once my electric water heater goes out I'll switch that over to gas but for cooking I don't like it. I'm not a master chef and personally I think gas is very dirty (leaving residue and whatnot.)

It's my house and I want what I want