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Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1
reply to CptObvious

Re: [ Classes] Druid Thread

Thought cat swipe was still limited to 3?



Reanimator7

join:2008-11-22
Matthews, NC
reply to stvnbrs

nope
just limited to frontal cone, unlike bear's 360 attack.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

said by Reanimator7:

nope
just limited to frontal cone, unlike bear's 360 attack.
This, but the damage is still split between the number of mobs instead of multiplying. So the more mobs you have the less damage is done to each, but the total remains similar.

53kdps? I find that hard to believe on trash due to the previously mentioned mechanic. The only way I can see this is if it is a 30sec fight and he had a 5pt FB going in from a previous pull then used TF+berserk to spam swipe. Even then I doubt that happened without some fight mechanic boosting his numbers. Is he spec'ed into swipe? If he is, then he is loosing out on single target dps on bosses which is were we truely shine.


Reanimator7

join:2008-11-22
Matthews, NC
reply to stvnbrs

Im really not positive that the aoe cap applies to cat swipe. Though I agree that it SHOULD.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

It's possible this is an exploit like an Unholy DK using pestilence in Faction Champs. Check out some of the top parses for that fight -- lol.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

It applies to cat swipe. I constantly have about 16-25k swipes when all targets are crit, this is regardless of the number of mobs. Although, I have seen smaller numbers when less then 3.



CptObvious

@dia.mil

I have a very hard time believing that aoe cap applies in the same sense as it does to other classes. His damage definitively scales with the size of the packs nearly ad infinitum; every other class we have seems to cap out in the mid-to-high 20s.

The 50k+ pulls were on the whelp packs pre-sindragosa, which are a LOT of mobs. My volley was doing about half normal damage; I capped out at about 25k and 27k He spiked over 60k and ended the pulls at 48k and 53k. He did not have FB going at the start of the first pull, which was higher.

So either swipe has ENORMOUS damage potential, to the point that the cap still lets it be up to double other classes' AoE, or the cap (if it applies) isn't being applied the same way. He consistently crushes all other AoE in the raid, and he does not consistently crush anyone single target. (He's top 4 consistently in 25s). So swipe seems to be either inherently strong, or inherently different in its cap (or lack thereof). Either way, the AoE is a strength of the class.

I find it interesting that the discussion has gone this way, though- while his trash numbers are eye-popping, they're of far less import (in my opinion) than the combination of raid buffs and boss dps that a full-gear cat brings to to the table. Hell, he even theorycrafts out higher than at least one of the "pure" classes while bringing better buffs. I can't help but be baffled by the apparent scarcity of raiding cats.



drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

They're very hard to play correctly, IIUC.

Raiding as a cat requires a set of gear that is 100% different from any of the other 2 trees and still different from bear. I'd love to pick up cat to try, but I have really no gear to do so.
--
"And Tehuno said let there be haste, not mp5, and there was haste. All creatures of the world rejoiced." -WotLK Ch. 3.3.2



Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1

cat was hella fun back in the day... I could go cat and switch out a few pieces of gear and do great dps without even trying... I just HATE having to get almost 2 full sets of the exact same gear to enchant/gem it differently. Hence the boomkin offspec now. And it gives me a chance to bring more raid buffs to the raid than feral.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to drew

How does cat work nowadays? Get ArPen capped and stack attack power?



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to CptObvious

There is a talent that some cats spec that increases swipe damage by 30%, unfortunately, for a cat to take this talent means 2 points are taken out of somewhere else, and there aren't many options to do so. He must have had to use berserk in order to keep up swipe, as it takes 40 out of 100 energy to use.

Cats are very fun to play, but to do well, you must think 10 sec ahead of every fight. Grats if you have a cat that can do this in your raid, as we are hard to come by. The biggest thing about cats is:

Gear is no where close to skill.

ArP does not factor into your gemming until soft cap. It is very difficult to get to without very high end gear and the right trinkets. Also, never gem ATP, agi gives atp and crit, which you want to stack to make the rotation easier.



drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
reply to Krisnatharok

nfi.

I'd be happy to gear up for cat and try it if I had the "blessing" of the powers-that-be.



Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1
reply to stvnbrs

what he said. Agi is #1 stat pretty much for cats still.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

Ah ok. Back in 3.0 - 3.1 I used to run Naxx/heroics with this cat that stacked arpen. No idea how bad that was but he did insane dps (5-6k).



drew
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Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

I would imagine there is/was a point in time where it made sense. The game changes way too much.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

Sad that bear and cat talent builds are so vastly different. You could feasibly want 5 different specs as a druid.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to stvnbrs

If you are trying to build a cat gear set, then a few things you need to know:

#1 get to 50% crit unbuffed (this allows you to even out your rotation and gives your OOC a good chance to proc more often.

#2 try to get to expertise cap

#3 never gem for hit

#4 Delicate Cardinal Ruby in red / Deadly Ametrine in Yellow / nightmare tear in blue with highest socket bonus, otherwise delicate cardinal ruby



drew
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join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
reply to Krisnatharok

You have no idea man. I need a raid heal vs tank-focused heal spec vs a moonkin spec vs pvp versions of healing and dps.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Sad that bear and cat talent builds are so vastly different. You could feasibly want 5 different specs as a druid.
I currently switch my offspec between 3 other specs / gearsets so far I have:

Cat pve
Bear pve
Feral pvp
Resto pve

No more room in bank for boomkin


Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI

3 edits
reply to stvnbrs

said by stvnbrs:

If you are trying to build a cat gear set, then a few things you need to know:

#1 get to 50% crit unbuffed (this allows you to even out your rotation and gives your OOC a good chance to proc more often.

#2 try to get to expertise cap

#3 never gem for hit

#4 Delicate Cardinal Ruby in red / Deadly Ametrine in Yellow / nightmare tear in blue with highest socket bonus, otherwise delicate cardinal ruby

Once your armor + gems get you above a certain level gemming for ArPen is generally considered better. I actually break the ArPen cap when I proc, but I am aiming to hard cap my ArPen so I don't have to rely on internal cooldowns and procs to roll. I have 1 nightmare tear and the rest are all fractured cardinal rubies.

Right now the ArPen cap is 1400. When I proc I hit 1500, but I am sitting over 900 arpen without a proc. I have yet to run a pug where another kitty out damages me. I main spec bear now so I don't even have the latest and greatest gear for my cat. I talked with a guild kitty (alt) and she regemmed for arpen and saw a sizeable increase in her dps. Although this is anecdotal, there is evidence on EJ and other sites that support ArPen for kitties for top DPS. When I have time I'll dig up a link.

--
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it.


Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI

From: »elitistjerks.com/f73/t63774-cat_dps_guide/

At about 400 - 500 ArPen, ArPen becomes the best stat
The exact amount depends on your gear (especially the trinkets). Use RAWR or Toskk to find out, when exactly ArP overtakes Agility. Also remember, that the value of both is very similar at that low lvl of ArP. The difference is extremely small and only gets bigger, when you gather more ArP.
As soon as you can reach these numbers, regemming all Agility gems for ArP gems would improve your DPS.
Our goal is to come as close to the ArP Hard Cap as possible.

And now it's time for mentioning the three ArP trinkets currently ingame:

[Grim Toll]
[Mjolnir Runestone]
[Needle-Encrusted Scorpion]

Wearing two of these trinkets is quite useless since they have a significant shared uptime and then there would be ArP wasted (assuming you've got some ArP on your gear). The goal is, to reach the ArP soft-cap. Soft Cap means: you have exactly 100% Armor Ignore when your trinket proccs.

ArP Soft-Cap: 722 ArPen, if wearing [Needle-Encrusted Scorpion]
ArP Soft-Cap: 735 ArPen, if wearing [Mjolnir Runestone]
ArP Soft-Cap: 788 ArPen, if wearing [Grim Toll]

For clarification, I will try to explain this. Let's say you don't have one of the two trinkets and x is the ArP on your gear (and with Hearty Rhino, the +40 ArP food buff):

x Agility is the best stat, gem for it
400 ArPen is the best stat, gem for it
1400 Agility is the best stat, gem for it

Now finally Grim Toll drops off Gothik the Harvester and you are lucky enough to get it!

x Agility is the best stat, gem for it
400 ArPen is the best stat, gem for it
788 Agility is the best stat, gem for it

Just replace your soft-cap with 735, when wearing Mjolnir Runestone instead of Grim Toll and with 722, if wearing the Scorpion.

If you are wearing a lot of ICC items and manage to get about 1000 Passive ArP, it's better not to wear one of the 3 ArP Trinkets and instead going for the Passive HardCap!
--
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

So once my druid hits 80, the two best trinkets immediately available to him would be Greatness (AGI) and NES?


jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to stvnbrs

I up grade a couple pieces lastnight. I lost hit with both items how high up the priority list should hit be for cat dps it's still around 270 so it's not horrible. It seems like everything has expertise on it rather than hit.



Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1
reply to Krisnatharok

yeah. Another reason to not go cat, you go into that horrible trinket battle with every other dps in the game looking for it too.

But for luck, end tier pieces and leather pieces have freaking armor pen all over them (which is a shit stat for bear over all.. helps for threat that no one has issues with..yay).



Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1
reply to jofos

welcome to the tanks dilemma



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Antonica

That's encouraging.

Funny story... tanked a ToC25 last night, JV didn't drop, DC did, and I rolled a 99 but had to pass since I was MS tanking... lol. fml



Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI
reply to jofos

said by jofos:

I up grade a couple pieces lastnight. I lost hit with both items how high up the priority list should hit be for cat dps it's still around 270 so it's not horrible. It seems like everything has expertise on it rather than hit.
262 is the hit cap (correct me I am wrong) for cats since you are standing behind the mob. You're fine.

Greatness is a nice trinket. You can also get the Banner of Victory out of regular ToC (+84 ArPen w/ 1008 AP proc). The nice thing about the DMC is that it's a good trinket for Bears and Cats.
--
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it.


CptObvious

@dia.mil
reply to Zyncotl

Heh, yeah, our cat gems for ArP. He's basically crit capped, which starts cutting into the value of AGI. He's expertise capped, and close to ArP capped, and now he's actually pushing hit- he says that he's only started caring about hit since he got the 4pc t10, that it was worthless before. After he gets his hit down, I think he plans to actually start pushing haste, since he'll have *everything* else capped or near capped.

Speaking as a guy currently raiding a hunter, the only thing I'll ever see capped is hit. I'm boggled by a toon being crit capped, arp capped, exp capped, AND hit capped. I wonder if ferals hit a point like Boomies do, where they're so capped that they have a hard time getting better.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to stvnbrs

A lot of the T10 gear is missing hit and expertise. Where is the druid at crit? I know I am rocking close to 75% in 10 mans which is fine. T9 has a lot of hit on it to the point where I am like 100 hit over cap, and I make sure that I am expertise capped. I am not at the point where I can start stacking ArP yet, even though I have NES.

The thing about ArP is that it only affects 3 attacks. The way to ensure you are at the right point to move to ArP is to judge weather or not your ArP will be high enough with the 3 attacks to outweigh the damage you loose on ALL other attacks that benefit from agility.

Found it:

Armor Penetration vs Agility
Armor Penetration affects white damage, Mangle, and Shred. Agility affects white damage, Mangle, Shred, Rake, and Rip. For Armor Penetration to be superior to Agility, your white damage, Mangle and Shred must be a large enough fraction of your damage, and be sufficiently hard hitting relative to what you could have gained across all of your abilities from the equivalent amount of Agility. Similar to the Strength versus Agility tradeoff, the rate at which one scales fastest depends on the amount of the other present. The higher your total non-Armor Penetration stats are, the better increasing Armor Penetration becomes. The higher your total Armor Penetration is, the better other stats become, however Armor Penetration is subject to increasing returns, thus the higher your total Armor Penetration is, the better Armor Penetration becomes.

For each gear point, there is a point of inflection, where 1 Agility = 1 Armor Penetration Rating.
For the vast majority of the gear points available in game, the amount of stats on your gear without gemming is such that 1 Agility > 1 Armor Penetration Rating.

So in practice, this is what happens when you decide to stack it.
(Inflection point - Static Armor Penetration) gemmed at 1 Agility > 1 Armor Penetration Rating, at a loss of X DPS.
(Remaining gem sockets) gemmed at 1 Armor Penetration Rating > 1 Agility, at a gain of Y DPS.

If Y > X, then stacking Armor Penetration Rating over Agility is worth it. If X > Y, then you lose too much DPS making Armor Penetration rating out-scale Agility to see a DPS increase.

taken from: »druid.wikispaces.com/ToskksDPSGearMethod

NES and DMC:G are great trinkets. I am still running with those as I can't seen to win the roll on the wispering skull from Deathwisper. I will look for the conversion and post it.



Antonica
Premium
join:2002-09-02
kudos:1

NO HIT on T10, and 1 piece (legs) have EXP on them. GG bliz.