| reply to KodiacZiller
Re: Novell Strips BitTorrent DHT Technology From openSUSE said by KodiacZiller:I have no idea what a Störerhaftung is, but it certainly sounds like something to be avoided. 
Störerhaftung = roughly translated (by google), means "Disturber liability" (and we certainly wouldn't want to be a 'disturber', now would we?)
(translated links)
Wikipedia
Law firm of Reichhardt & Schlotz in Stuttgart website (this link specifically refers to the issue of Internet Filesharing)
I can't fault Suse for this, and I don't think it's much of an issue since I believe most Susers are aware of and use the Packman repos. I also wouldn't consider Transmission 'crippled' without DHT, although I do turn it on in my clients (Deluge, Ktorrent and Transmission). |
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3 edits | reply to rawwhide
The Wiki link to Störerhaftung is here. It roughly translates (according to Google) as disturber liability. In this case, IMO, a violation of IP law.
While I was researching this, Lurkarooski had posted essentially the same info. |
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kudos:2 | reply to Lurkarooski
said by Lurkarooski :
I believe most Susers are aware of and use the Packman repos. Correct. It's hard to miss:
Additional Package Repositories |
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| reply to Lurkarooski
said by Lurkarooski :
I can't fault Suse for this, and I don't think it's much of an issue since I believe most Susers are aware of and use the Packman repos. I also wouldn't consider Transmission 'crippled' without DHT, although I do turn it on in my clients (Deluge, Ktorrent and Transmission).
My only real criticism of them is rolling over too easily.
At risk of sounding pedantic how does allowing OpenSUSE to operate with Packman make it any better or worse than offering the DHT enabled client in the first place.
So the IP lobby marches on pushing for a wider criteria for Distributor Liability (which is what I assume the translation meant)
Where does it stop? Should you re-write the OS so that BT clients cease to work at all?
Anyways I think you know where I'm going with this... |
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| I remember when Red Hat couldn't play mp3 files. Ubuntu still doesn't come with Flash or video codecs (I think).
Each distro makes decisions on such things based on the prevailing law and their legal advice. I don't think this is one of those "let's take up arms and storm the gates" kind of issues. |
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| said by No_Strings: Ubuntu still doesn't come with Flash or video codecs (I think). Each distro makes decisions on such things based on the prevailing law and their legal advice. Fair enough
You are correct in the above about Flash, MP3s, WMA and Java. You need to install Ubuntu-restricted-extras in order to have those. |
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| said by El Quintron:said by No_Strings: Ubuntu still doesn't come with Flash or video codecs (I think). Each distro makes decisions on such things based on the prevailing law and their legal advice. Fair enough You are correct in the above about Flash, MP3s, WMA and Java. You need to install Ubuntu-restricted-extras in order to have those. Yet those installable bits are still hosted by Canonical infrastructure. I guess the distros just don't want to piss off a few beard lovers by making them click an "agree to this" box at some point during the install.
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 jdongEat A Beaver, Save A Tree.Premium
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kudos:1 | said by firephoto:Yet those installable bits are still hosted by Canonical infrastructure. I guess the distros just don't want to piss off a few beard lovers by making them click an "agree to this" box at some point during the install. All the default installed media apps will prompt to install the codecs upon-demand the first time you attempt to play a MP3 file or view a Flash webpage.
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| reply to El Quintron
said by El Quintron:My only real criticism of them is rolling over too easily. Where does it stop? Should you re-write the OS so that BT clients cease to work at all? Anyways I think you know where I'm going with this... I do, and I think most people do as well, but it's a CYA World out there now.
said by No_Strings:Each distro makes decisions on such things based on the prevailing law and their legal advice.
With the likes of the RIAA suing Grannies and Tweeners for the smallest infractions, they have little choice. Imagine what an inviting target Suse/Novell might make, and all the ensuing chaos that could cause. |
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| reply to jdong
said by jdong:said by firephoto:Yet those installable bits are still hosted by Canonical infrastructure. I guess the distros just don't want to piss off a few beard lovers by making them click an "agree to this" box at some point during the install. All the default installed media apps will prompt to install the codecs upon-demand the first time you attempt to play a MP3 file or view a Flash webpage. Right and status of not being totally free is more of the reason than any legal uncertainty.
I don't know where this 'packman' is hosted or who owns it so the reality of this beyond what Novell in Germany wants to portray is a bit vague.
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| said by firephoto:I don't know where this 'packman' is hosted or who owns it so the reality of this beyond what Novell in Germany wants to portray is a bit vague. I think they may be playing both sides of the fence (like most corporations) and hoping they piss off the least amount of users either corporate or individual.
Hence the artificial wall between them and Packman. I can deal with the CYA I find all the fancy footwork a little tiring at times. |
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4 edits | reply to firephoto
said by El Quintron:said by firephoto:I don't know where this 'packman' is hosted or who owns it so the reality of this beyond what Novell in Germany wants to portray is a bit vague. I think they may be playing both sides of the fence (like most corporations) and hoping they piss off the least amount of users either corporate or individual. Hence the artificial wall between them and Packman. I can deal with the CYA I find all the fancy footwork a little tiring at times. Nasty.
Considering all those nice people who provide you with FOSS.
»packman.links2linux.org/
We build software packages to enable users to easily install and remove software on Linux. More specifically, we do so for software that is not shipped as part of distributions or that are shipped as an outdated version.
The site is © 2001-2009 by Marc Schiffbauer and Pascal Bleser.
People of openSUSE: Pascal Bleser
August 9th, 2007
In addition to Packman, Marc Schiffbauer is involved with Linux kernel development and other Linux stuff.
PackMan:FAQ (en)
[opensuse] contrib vs. Packman
»linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List···920.html
Packman started long before openSUSE existed as a means to offer packages for SuSE Linux that were not part of the distribution. Nowadays it's mostly interesting for all the stuff Novell can't put into the distribution or host in the build service due to license issues like various audio and video codecs.
»linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List···919.html
Some of the OpenSUSE Members packing for Packman, too. But i thin the big different are the Licenses. Build Service only can host Projects with an free Licence (similar to GPL/LGPL). Packman hosts many Projects with other Licences: w32codecs, libxine1. libdvdcss. This Projects can't hosted by the Build Service. AFAIK
»linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List···953.html
The Packman's have no plans on merging with Contrib. Mainly because Packman is following a complete different set of rules. For instance you can do version updates of Software in Packman, you cant in Contrib. etc. etc.
»linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List···954.html
Contrib is a community-driven logical extension of Factory, with all limits applied. (i.e. no codecs, no patented stuff, etc...)
Its is like Ubuntu Universe.
Pacman has no such limitations. Its is like Ubuntu Multiverse. |
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| My original post might have been taken the wrong way due to it being somewhat lacking in detail.
Right or wrong, good or bad, falling back on a "those nice people providing FOSS" type of argument is a bit lame. FOSS doesn't make anything instant good or perfect or even right.  Packman is hosted in Germany too fwiw so the laws that might have started this equally apply to packman too I'd guess. heh
To the original topic (which has been resolved for future releases afaik) it's kind of dumb to remove functionality of a program because stupid people might do stupid things similar to smart people doing smart things. If the programs did something that wasn't agreeable or possibly illegal they should of just removed them and not did some half assed butchering in the name of being safe yet friendly to everyone that they thought mattered.
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jdongEat A Beaver, Save A Tree.Premium
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kudos:1 | said by firephoto:My original post might have been taken the wrong way due to it being somewhat lacking in detail. Right or wrong, good or bad, falling back on a "those nice people providing FOSS" type of argument is a bit lame. FOSS doesn't make anything instant good or perfect or even right. Packman is hosted in Germany too fwiw so the laws that might have started this equally apply to packman too I'd guess. heh To the original topic (which has been resolved for future releases afaik) it's kind of dumb to remove functionality of a program because stupid people might do stupid things similar to smart people doing smart things. If the programs did something that wasn't agreeable or possibly illegal they should of just removed them and not did some half assed butchering in the name of being safe yet friendly to everyone that they thought mattered. Well the problem here with SUSE is their German audience. It seems pretty clear from anecdotal evidence (IANAL) that the new German laws make a lot of US-okay 'hacking tools' (from DHT to Wireshark) not okay over there -- even in Ubuntu we've heard the occasional warning that we shouldn't have wireshark in the repo or tcpdump shouldn't be in the default image, etc.
It seems like Novell doesn't want the inconvenience of a separate "German edition" of OpenSUSE... The question that comes to mind is, how does their community feel about this decision?
I think for most, this will not be a big deal. For those who need DHT capabilities, there's popular 3rd party repos that offer them.
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4 edits | reply to firephoto
said by firephoto:My original post might have been taken the wrong way due to it being somewhat lacking in detail. Actually, if you look at the quoted conversation structure, my comment was directed to El Quintron, not you. Don't know why my previous post says 'reply to firephoto'. It was not intended.
said by firephoto:Packman is hosted in Germany too fwiw so the laws that might have started this equally apply to packman too I'd guess. heh Quite obviously, for whatever legal & structural reasons, they don't.
said by jdong :
I think for most, this will not be a big deal. It's not a big, moderate or tiny deal for any SUSE user as Packman offers the complete packages. The Packman repo is a standard YaST package manager user addition.
said by jdong :
The question that comes to mind is, how does their community feel about this decision? The community is happy that openSUSE and Packman are available.
And as you said, each country has it's own laws. Laws are what they are.
said by No_Strings :
Each distro makes decisions on such things based on the prevailing law and their legal advice. I don't think this is one of those "let's take up arms and storm the gates" kind of issues. Exactly. |
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| said by SUMware:said by firephoto:My original post might have been taken the wrong way due to it being somewhat lacking in detail. Actually, if you look at the quoted conversation structure, my comment was directed to El Quintron, not you. Don't know why my previous post says 'reply to firephoto'. It was not intended. I know, but I did sort of start this tangent. 
It's not said much but I get the impression the act of the user downloading something as optional vs. installed by default (with a broad definition of default maybe) is what's in play here.
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| reply to firephoto
said by firephoto:My original post might have been taken the wrong way due to it being somewhat lacking in detail. Right or wrong, good or bad, falling back on a "those nice people providing FOSS" type of argument is a bit lame. FOSS doesn't make anything instant good or perfect or even right. Packman is hosted in Germany too fwiw so the laws that might have started this equally apply to packman too I'd guess. heh To the original topic (which has been resolved for future releases afaik) it's kind of dumb to remove functionality of a program because stupid people might do stupid things similar to smart people doing smart things. If the programs did something that wasn't agreeable or possibly illegal they should of just removed them and not did some half assed butchering in the name of being safe yet friendly to everyone that they thought mattered. This is what turned me off with what SUSE did. Wouldn't it be better just not include the package rather than offer it up crippled? Some people(myself included) have no clue what DHT technology is and how it could effect torrent clients.
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2 edits | reply to firephoto
said by firephoto:It's not said much but I get the impression the act of the user downloading something as optional vs. installed by default (with a broad definition of default maybe) is what's in play here. That could simply very well be it.
The apps containing the 'questionable' features are not distributed with those features as part of the operating system.
They must be optionally user installed, at a different time, with specific user intent.
That specific individual user action may eliminate potential liability from the original distribution's distributor. |
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1 edit | reply to rawwhide
said by rawwhide:Wouldn't it be better just not include the package rather than offer it up crippled? No. Transmission contains PEX and performs just fine without DHT. Initially I didn't even know that DHT was missing. Excellent peers are located without DHT. LiveCDs were/are downloading at my max bandwidth. |
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| reply to SUMware
said by SUMware:said by El Quintron:I think they may be playing both sides of the fence (like most corporations) and hoping they piss off the least amount of users either corporate or individual. Hence the artificial wall between them and Packman. I can deal with the CYA I find all the fancy footwork a little tiring at times. Nasty. Considering all those nice people who provide you with FOSS. Save it.
I'm a nice person that provides you with credit, manages your pension fund and gives your investment advice that's in your best interest everyday.
What I don't pretend is that my employer has your best interest at heart. My employer wants market share, and the least hindrance in doing so, hence why it pretty much blindly follows whatever law the provincial securities regulator(s) set out for it no matter how stupid.
SUSE is doing the same thing. It doesn't want to challenge the german government because it has a comfortable relationship with it.
I do believe SUSE could probably take the high ground on my employer, but like most corporations they wussed out on this one because it was the most expedient choice. |
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