 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Why Is This Bad? As long as contract terms are fully disclosed, even with fine print, and the company is adhering to said contract, then what exactly is the EFF's complaint?
If the customer doesn't bother to read the fine print, why is that anyone else's fault but the customer's?
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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| I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract. You have to be a lawyer to understand it. What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period. If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans). The terms should be short, and to the point. I guarantee you, if most people understood what they were signing, a LOT of them would say 'screw it, it's a bad deal'. Fine print is how they make a BAD DEAL look good.
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The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! |
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| reply to pnh102
The single biggest issue is that they are so one sided and can be changed at any given time by the corporations.
Sure you agree to it at this point in time, but then all of a sudden after you have become "dependent" or accustomed to the product they go and throw a wrinkle in there hoping you will miss it OR simply will not mind so much because you have become comfortable with their product/service and fear change OR times have changed and you really have no good viable option anyway and they know that.
This can be and should be simply rectified. Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up or until the customer leaves and comes back. These companies want to have us agree to a 2 year plan, then we are on THAT plan for 2 years. If they and their legal department missed a screwing when drawing up that plan, then I guess they have to wait 2 years to rectify it and stick it to us. |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to karlmarx
said by karlmarx:I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract. I read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time.
said by karlmarx: You have to be a lawyer to understand it. So just because you can't do it means that we have to ruin things for everyone else? I've never had a problem looking up the meanings of legal terms online and I am no lawyer.
said by karlmarx: What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period. You can go to any service provider's website and view a copy of a potential contract with no fine print. You can even use your browser settings to jack up the font size to whatever you like.
said by karlmarx: If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans). So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:The single biggest issue is that they are so one sided and can be changed at any given time by the corporations. So clearly that provision is not hidden by the fine print. Again, what is the problem?
said by Skippy25:Sure you agree to it at this point in time, but then all of a sudden after you have become "dependent" or accustomed to the product they go and throw a wrinkle in there hoping you will miss it OR simply will not mind so much because you have become comfortable with their product/service and fear change OR times have changed and you really have no good viable option anyway and they know that. So in other words, people allow themselves to be screwed. Whose fault is that? And what difference would it make if these terms were posted in 72 point Courier New instead of 4 point Arial?
said by Skippy25:This can be and should be simply rectified. Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up or until the customer leaves and comes back. These companies want to have us agree to a 2 year plan, then we are on THAT plan for 2 years. If you are talking about cell providers, then most contracts stipulate that the company making a change to the contract allows the customer an out at no charge.
Perhaps the EFF should refocus its efforts on the people who sign contracts without reading or understanding the terms. Maybe there are a lot of people who would like to know more about what their contract say and the EFF could be a huge help for such people.
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| Shouldn't I be able to change the fine print anytime to fit my needs as well and if they dont like it they can cancel the agreement without me assessing an early termination fee?
Or how about I get to add fine print that says payment is best effort and at my sole discretion OR if they don't like something and want to dispute it we will both tell my mom our stories and she will decide who is in the right and it is binding? |
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 aSicapplication specificPremium
join:2001-05-17
Wakulla, FL | reply to pnh102
said by pnh102:said by karlmarx: If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans). So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice. *rimshot*
Nice zing.
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Teamwork is a lot of people doing what I say. |
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 GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:8
 ·AT&T U-Verse
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said by pnh102:said by karlmarx:I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract. I read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time. said by karlmarx: You have to be a lawyer to understand it. So just because you can't do it means that we have to ruin things for everyone else? I've never had a problem looking up the meanings of legal terms online and I am no lawyer. said by karlmarx: What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period. You can go to any service provider's website and view a copy of a potential contract with no fine print. You can even use your browser settings to jack up the font size to whatever you like. said by karlmarx: If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans). So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice. How do you look something up when you're there, away from the computer?
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 VanPremium
join:2009-07-08
New Orleans, LA | reply to pnh102
said by pnh102  I read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time.
[/BQUOTE :I would be willing to bet that you have not read the fine print of everything you have signed |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to Gbcue
said by Gbcue:How do you look something up when you're there, away from the computer? The best way is to never sign something on the spot. If it is a cell phone contract, those can be read at home before you sign up. As for a mortgage, I was able to read the paperwork before closing and prepare my list of questions. The same goes with a lease. For the car loan, the only thing I was worried about was being scammed into one of those "you own it but you really don't" type of deals... and if the dealer is desperate enough to close a deal with you, they will let you read the contract.
If you have a phone with a data plan and a browser, that also helps.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to Van
said by Van: would be willing to bet that you have not read the fine print of everything you have signed And you'd lose.
I don't see why this is considered a bad thing. Any contract that involves you paying money for something and which has the potential to really screw you over if you aren't careful really should be read and understood by you before you sign it.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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VanPremium
join:2009-07-08
New Orleans, LA | I doubt it. It makes your argument stronger online but nobody reads every single line of every single product they buy. Some are almost 10-12 pages long of small line-by-line words.
I am sure you won't admit otherwise but I doubt I am wrong.
Not mocking you as I don't either |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:Shouldn't I be able to change the fine print anytime to fit my needs as well and if they dont like it they can cancel the agreement without me assessing an early termination fee? If they agree to it then sure. If they don't, too bad. That's all part of contract law. If you do not like that the wireless carrier doesn't care for your terms, well that's the art of negotiation, when you have no leverage, they won't care who you are or what you want.
But in the grand scheme of things, cell phone contracts seem to work just fine for most people except for the vocal minority that thinks that agreed-upon contract terms should be thrown out simply because they do not like them anymore.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to Van
And you're more than welcome to do that. I'll continue reading contracts. 
If it helps to convince you, I do not sign up for many subscription-based services simply because I do not like the types of terms in some of these contracts.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to Van
Ten to twelve pages is nothing. If I'm entering into a contract that make me financially liable for something, I do read everything. Ask the closing agent that I used to close on my last house. I spent close to two hours reading/signing everything. The sad thing is that the closers said that they've never had anyone read the documents. What??? Why would you not read everything if you're getting ready to agree to pay more than $1 million dollars over the next 30 years?
FWIW, I actually read the license agreements on software that I install on my computer too, but that's a different discussion. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to Skippy25
I don't have much pity for people who can't/won't read contracts before signing them, but I will agree with this point. A contract is a contract and should be binding for both parties. said by Skippy25:Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up |
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I believe we fully understand you read everything before applying your John Hancock and that's great, but the simple truth is that most don't. Also the TOS contracts are often intentionally obscure and hard to understand, one because people who actually want to read it give up, and two, because for a lot of people they don't know what the heck they're reading and therefore DON'T know what to ask.
Anything that assists the consumer in understanding what the heck they're signing/agreeing to is a bonus in my eyes, and I cant understand your vehement support of how the system currently works. As it stands, it is broken, and severely favors the provider while penalizing the consumer. You can throw more flawed logic at this if you want, but that's where it stands. |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | said by pistachionut:I believe we fully understand you read everything before applying your John Hancock and that's great, but the simple truth is that most don't. True, but as another poster pointed out, if someone is willing to commit a ton of money to a long term financial obligation without reading exactly to what they are agreeing, then there is really no way you can fault the contract for that.
said by pistachionut:Anything that assists the consumer in understanding what the heck they're signing/agreeing to is a bonus in my eyes, and I cant understand your vehement support of how the system currently works. As it stands, it is broken, and severely favors the provider while penalizing the consumer. You can throw more flawed logic at this if you want, but that's where it stands. Ok maybe I am missing something here, but why on earth would anyone sign up for service that they apparently do not like, can't use the way they need to, think is overpriced, and charges them fees that they don't like? There is no logic in that at all.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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It's a full time job just keeping track of the fine print for most people if they don't want to get screwed. Gotta read the fine print for everything. I'd prefer just having a 1 page TOS with NO "fine" print for these types of services. The average consumer shouldn't need to try and keep track of 40 or 50 of these and their changes monthly. |
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I doubt you have enough time to keep up with all the monthly changes that are happening. Also, I've read contracts where they refer to something in some other location. You go to that, it refers you to some other place that you can not fine, etc... It's a racket to hide the "icky" parts. |
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