 drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 | reply to GTJiga
Re: call of duty mmo Fast twitch doesn't belong in a persistent world IMO.
I played Planetside and that game sucked in too many ways to me. |
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 pwrtopplC-C-C-Combo Breaker
join:2008-11-21
Broomfield, CO | said by drew:Fast twitch doesn't belong in a persistent world IMO. I played Planetside and that game sucked in too many ways to me. you slow? or is your computer crappy?
in wow pvp, you need to be on the ball to drop gcds and responses faster then the other team...dont see it being different here besides everyone having guns instead of just hunters
in pve, mistiming a cast, or reaction to an ability can mean a raid wipe. nothing wrong with a mmofps doing something similar
remember the ovens in everquest? you only had so much time to get the door open before you killed the raid...remember when only a couple people got the right code? and when they werent paying attention it was a wipe?
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 GTJiga06 GTPremium
join:2002-02-02
Azle, TX
kudos:1 | reply to drew
said by drew:Fast twitch doesn't belong in a persistent world IMO. I played Planetside and that game sucked in too many ways to me. Never played Planetside, so no opinion on that game. I did play WWIIOnline from beta to release and about a year into it.
The game was pretty decent, just didn't have the player base to support large scale warfare. The design and implementation of the game was perfect... well, buggy at first, but the overall idea of the game was great.
If they could make any FPS game into an online persistent world AND have the player base to make it feel truly epic, I would be there in a heartbeat. |
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 | reply to pwrtoppl
I am neither slow nor is the computer crappy.
Fast twitch does not belong in a persistent world. That's my opinion. |
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 NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny YoursPremium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
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| said by drew:I am neither slow nor is the computer crappy. Fast twitch does not belong in a persistent world. That's my opinion. Fast twitch has been around in some form in every popular MMO to date. From Aion to World of Warcraft. So in your opinion, the only games that should be in persistent worlds should be online poker or euchre? 
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 | There is absolutely zero fast twitch in WoW.
Quick response time? Yes. Fast twitch? No. |
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GTJiga06 GTPremium
join:2002-02-02
Azle, TX
kudos:1 | said by drew:There is absolutely zero fast twitch in WoW. Quick response time? Yes. Fast twitch? No. I believe there is some extent to twitch in WoW. Drew, you know I played WoW for quite some time as well, from 04 to 09. I mainly PVP'd up to Wrath. In arenas it was crucial to be on your keys. I had everything keybound with a lot of modifiers, shift+mw up, shift+mb4, stuff like that. If you were not fast on your keys plus moving around (not keyboard turning mind you..) and dependent on class, you lost. It does come down to class combos, but also skill in button mashing, keybinding everything, and being fast and knowing what to do. |
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| I'm explicitly referring to fast twitch with a mouse and clicking.
Key mashing is one thing, but the act of aiming in coordination with other things is significantly different from a RPG, particularly WoW-esque ones.
Progress in a MMO I think should come from knowledge and time invested instead of physical abilities. FPS is very much a physically demanding game, especially at the top tier of competitive play.
I don't feel that FPS belongs in a MMO setting and while there are many out there who would enjoy it, kudos to them but to me, boo-urns. You'll also not be nearly as successful as many would think.
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GTJiga06 GTPremium
join:2002-02-02
Azle, TX
kudos:1 | said by drew:You'll also not be nearly as successful as many would think. If you are referring to a MMOFPS not being as successful, I tend to agree. To many instant-gratification types these days. If it took more than a minute for them to get into action and start fragging, they would lose interest. But there are many of us out there that highly enjoy realistic/tactical games. I love Arma and Arma2, Rainbow Six Series up to Raven Shield, Joint Ops, and other games of similar style. |
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| I really enjoyed Ghost Recon et all and the first R6 games too.
None of that renders itself well in a MMO environment.
I hit CAL-M "back in the day" on CS1.6, so I'm not some no-talent scrub who started playing WoW a few years back so now I'm a gamer.
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NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny YoursPremium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI Reviews:
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1 edit | reply to drew
said by drew:I'm explicitly referring to fast twitch with a mouse and clicking. Key mashing is one thing, but the act of aiming in coordination with other things is significantly different from a RPG, particularly WoW-esque ones. Progress in a MMO I think should come from knowledge and time invested instead of physical abilities. FPS is very much a physically demanding game, especially at the top tier of competitive play. I don't feel that FPS belongs in a MMO setting and while there are many out there who would enjoy it, kudos to them but to me, boo-urns. You'll also not be nearly as successful as many would think. What we are really talking about here is reaction time. Button mashing, moving the mouse, hitting the mouse button fast.....its all reaction. I consider "twitch" gaming to be games like WoW because "twitch" is all "reaction". If "twitch" didn't belong in MMORPGs, then everyone would be created equal. As it turns out, in WoW, there were people who were VERY good at the game. They were good when it came to how fast they reacted to a situation. Then you have total nubs who can't react their way out of a wet paper bag. All those times you wiped because of that nub, congrats!
Now that we got that out of the way.....
The whole thing with aiming the mouse and clicking the button is just another method of reaction time. Even at the top level of WoW there are players who are better than 95% of the other players in the game. In every game, there will be people who are faster than others.
Will the game succeed or fail? Its hard to say. Global Agenda will be a good test as to that statement. Planetside was awesome back in the day.
You are right though that we have too many gamers that are into the instant gratification. I wish there were more strategic minded gamers out there like JIGA that would like a slower more tactical and realistic shooter.
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 | There's a huge difference from mouse speed for say, using Grid/Healbot and playing a FPS. You know this. |
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NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny YoursPremium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI Reviews:
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3 edits | said by drew:There's a huge difference from mouse speed for say, using Grid/Healbot and playing a FPS. You know this. Its just a different form of reaction time. I have played a healer in WoW, so I know the difference. Its just a matter of definition I guess. I define "twitch" as reaction. If there was no "twitch" gaming in MMORPGs like WoW, we would have an equal playing field across the board. That isn't the case as there are fail healers out there with Healbot that miss key heals. Then you have MMORPGs that are built on a point and click interface which even reinforces my point. Even if you have every mod available to eliminate moving the mouse at all, you still have some things you have to use the mouse for. Think "twitch" gaming has nothing to do with that in a high pressure situation?
As I said, all a matter of definition.
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| Did I imply otherwise?
There's, as I'll say again, a HUGE difference between the two.
Plus, there's a large difference in hand-eye coordination. I know of 60 year old somethings in progression guilds that make fantastic healers yet would get murdered in a FPS situation.
The play styles are not even close to similar and in a persistent world, I'd want to bash people's heads in the wall... persistently?
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NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny YoursPremium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI Reviews:
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2 edits | said by drew:Did I imply otherwise? There's, as I'll say again, a HUGE difference between the two. Plus, there's a large difference in hand-eye coordination. I know of 60 year old somethings in progression guilds that make fantastic healers yet would get murdered in a FPS situation. The play styles are not even close to similar and in a persistent world, I'd want to bash people's heads in the wall... persistently? I just don't believe its that huge when it comes to a MMOFPS. Maybe a small difference, but not huge. I know 50+ old people who play MW2 and can regularly get positive kill ratios.
Maybe we can both agree with the fact that a MMOFPS and a MMORPG like WoW tailors to specific users and their talents? Some people are good when it comes to a MMOFPS and reaction time in a game like that, and others are tailored to WoW and reacting to in game events there as well.
You make it sound like there is this HUGE, worlds apart, difference and that just isn't legit in my eyes. Hell, if it is then my 37 year old reflexes couldn't stand up against a batch of 14-21 year old teens in a game like that and I hold up rather well. If I was getting pwned every match, it would be different.
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1 edit | reply to Nightfall
said by drew:There's a huge difference from mouse speed for say, using Grid/Healbot and playing a FPS. You know this. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitch_gameplay
"Twitch gameplay is a type of video gameplay that tests a player's reaction time and precision."
WoW emphasized reaction speed but not precision. Macros and hotkeys are related to reaction speed, not twitch.
Twitch gameplay is linked so hard to FPS because the execution requiries precise, fast movements to be successful. The Tetris example is interesting, with precision being dictated by movement of the block rather than a mouse. Your reaction speed could be great, but if you spaz out (lack of precision), fail.
Heal botting is not even close to twitch, you queue a skill and then click the tank's picture which doesn't move, is large, and requires no precision. PvP, I might give you that there are twitch elements due to unpredictability of the location of opponents, but then "target nearest enemy" keys break that argument. |
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| reply to Nightfall
I don't think the market would support such an endeavor. Companies are welcome to try, but you take the absolute worst part of PvP in MMOs (balancing) and almost entirely take that out of the equation.
You can't balance out pure player skill. That may be the idea, but what happens when your playerbase matures? Then you have a couple hundred thousand good players and anyone that comes in is at an immediate disadvantage. This is the vary same thing you see in older FPS, for example CS. Finding BAD players in CS is relatively difficult due to the age of the game.
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| reply to Dentist
I hope you're just quoting my post but really agreeing with me.
You're supporting my argument and doing a much better job. Kudos.
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| said by drew:I hope you're just quoting my post but really agreeing with me. You're supporting my argument and doing a much better job. Kudos. Yeah.
Twitch MMO scares me because of latency when you try to execute something on that large of a scale. In CS, anything over 50 ping was bad. Wow, 300 ping is playable, not great, but playable.
I never played Planetside, which is epic fail on my behalf. I'm curious how that worked from a latency standpoint.
Jumpgate evolution is also apparently going to be twitch based spaceship combat (not fps). |
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drewAutomaticPremium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·wavebroadband
| That's where netcode is focused on heavily.
WoW was never designed to be as big as it was, so the britches have to be stitched a few dozen times.
With a MMOFPS, they have to build it with large scale in mind from the ground up. I don't see the tech behind something like that being available currently.
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