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Monolith
join:2007-07-25
united state

Monolith

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New Computer & sine wave ups

I just bought a new computer and I am rather annoyed with it, I am told that I need a sine wave ups. I really cannot afford a new UPS at this time as these sine wave ups are expensive. Anyone know anywhere to get one cheap, 450 bucks or less? Or do I have any other options other than just use a surge protector for now?

Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
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join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Jahntassa

Premium Member

Who said you 'need' a sine-wave UPS? Unless your power is so horrible that you'll constantly be on battery, I don't personally think it matters for a home PC.

Just get a battery with the appropriate rating for your wattage use and runtime required and you'll be fine.
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
united state

Monolith

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The manufacture said I needed it, because the UPS I have now won’t work. It runs my other computer fine, but when I test it on the new computer it fails. Also on the manufacture web site, there a ton of posts on the support forums with others having the same problem. Yes we do have few power outages a month.
RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

RJ44

Member

said by Monolith:

The manufacture said I needed it, because the UPS I have now won’t work. It runs my other computer fine, but when I test it on the new computer it fails. Also on the manufacture web site, there a ton of posts on the support forums with others having the same problem. Yes we do have few power outages a month.
Which manufacturer said you need it, the PC or the UPS? When you say "it fails", what fails, the UPS or the PC? And how does it fail?

Who manufactures your pc and who makes the PSU in your new pc and what model is it?
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
united state

Monolith

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The computer shuts off, acts like it not connected to a UPS. The PC manufacturer told me what type of ups "one with sine-wave" to get that would work with this type of computer. Dell Studio XPS 9000, with Intel i7-975 processor.
RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

RJ44

Member

It figures it would be a Dell, who knows what they've done to their PSU now? Anyway, maybe you could check with them to see if this model would work, they say it has a 'stepped approximation to a sine wave':

»www.apc.com/resource/inc ··· =4605,3c
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
united state

Monolith

Member

Hi,
Thanks for the info, though the one I have now I think is the same as the one listed, but instead of the 1300 it the 900. It runs my Precision T3500 just fine. I have 2 of the 900, using one for each system.
RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

RJ44

Member

FWIW, the 900 doesn't seem to mention the 'stepped approximation" bit. I don't know if that means it doesn't have it or if they just didn't bother to include it or what. Or maybe I'm looking at the wrong 900.

»www.apc.com/products/res ··· atts=200

And of course I have no idea if the 'stepped approximation to a sine wave' would even solve your problem, just thought it was worth a shot to ask Dell. Maybe someone else can answer that.
HarryH3
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join:2005-02-21

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Are you certain that the computer is plugged into the correct outlet on the UPS? All of my UPS systems have one bank of outlets that provide total protection and another bank that only provides surge protection. Anything plugged into the surge protection outlets will lose power in an outage.

Tursiops_G
Technoid
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If a "Stepped Approximation Sinewave" UPS actually can't cut it, then perhaps check out Eaton/Powerware for some decent quality, affordable, "Pure Sinewave" UPSes...

»powerquality.eaton.com/P ··· spx?cx=3

HTH,

-Tursiops_G.
westom
join:2009-03-15

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said by Monolith:The PC manufacturer told me what type of ups "one with sine-wave" to get that would work with this type of computer. Dell Studio XPS 9000, ... [/BQUOTE :

I don't know who told you that. But it was not the manufacturer. Let’s discuss reality even from the IBM PC days - with numbers. How do you know so many other posts were useless? Numerous reasons including an answer without numbers.

All computers must work fine even when the incandescent bulb dims to 50% intensity. That is an industry standard. How often do your lights dim that much? Why does a computer need a UPS? Because data might be lost if lights dim even more.

It is called a computer grade UPS. Their output so 'dirty' as to be harmful to other appliances such as small electric motors. And perfectly acceptable to any computer. For example, this 120 VAC UPS outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Perfectly acceptable to any computer.

More numbers. Anything that UPS might 'clean' is required to exist inside a computer's supply. Computer's supply so robust that even a UPS output (even harmful to power strip protectors is perfectly acceptable to any computer.

Unfortunately, some without any electrical knowledge get hired to answer phones. Did he provide any above numbers? Of course not. Too many only know because that is what someone told them. Your only responsible information sources are from those who also say why - with numbers.

Computers are also required to continue working when electricity disconnected for almost 20 milliseconds (actual number is usually higher). A UPS provides no power when switching to batteries. A switchover that every UPS performs faster if working properly.

Simple test. Plug the computer into the UPS. Unplug the UPS from AC. Then start the computer. Does it start? If not, the UPS is defective, undersized, or its batteries are exceeded it three year life expectancy.

Do the same test with light bulbs connected to the UPS. How many light bulbs (how many total watts) until the UPS (disconnected from mains) does not work?

Notice what is necessary to solve your problem. Answers with numbers. Do not waste time trying to cure the problem. First learn what you have. Above is how you provide the informed with important facts and numbers so that the informed can post something useful. Something without "it could be this or could be that" nonsense.
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
united state

1 edit

Monolith

Member

westom, your post is not very helpful so why bother to post at all. I was told by dell that I need a sine wave UPS for the type of computer I have. If you look at dell support forums and APC support forums, several other people that own the dell XPS 9000 are all having the same problem. Several people posted that after they purchased the sine wave UPS the XPS 9000 worked fine when the power went out. LIke I said the UPS works fine with my other computers, and yes it connected to the right UPS outlet. All I was looking for was if anyone knew of a sine wave UPS, that would not cost me an arm and a leg. Not a lecture on how to post.

Everyone else thank you for your replies. I think I am going to, buy the Eaton/Powerware UPS, as much as I don't want to spend the money I have no option.
RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

RJ44

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said by Monolith:

I think I am going to, buy the Eaton/Powerware UPS, as much as I don't want to spend the money I have no option.
Good luck and let us know how it works out for you. I will look into the Eaton UPS the next time I'm in the market as well.

Tursiops, thanks for that link.
srr2
join:2001-12-20
Pipersville, PA

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I would really like to know what's going on with that. Since there's anecdotal evidence that there's some validity to the "must have sine wave" story, it's likely that Dell has taken a different approach to the input stages of their power supplies for this model, probably in an attempt to raise efficiency and/or maintain a near-unity power factor. And, taking the argument one step farther, if Dell has done this, can other PS manufacturers be far behind. It wouldn't be a good thing at all if suddenly the next generation of power supplies won't play nice with all the millions of UPSs that are already working fine with older supplies.
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
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Monolith

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It not with all Dell's I can say that for sure, because the Precision T3500, that I purchased 3 months ago works just fine with my current UPS, same one I am tested the 9000 on. Someone posted the following on the dell board.

"Many newer PC's use the different power supply to conform to European Spec's and rather than use two different types of power supplies they just use the European spec type in all. Eventually, that will become the standard power supply type for all PC's."
richard_f
join:2002-11-04
Briarcliff Manor, NY

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I have a 9000 on order and had no idea about this issue. APC makes a 750 VA UPS that outputs a pure sine wave on battery and it's $240 at amazon:

»www.amazon.com/APC-SUA75 ··· d_cp_e_1

That should be enough UPS for the cpu, monitor and a router to give you a few minutes to shut down.

Tursiops_G
Technoid
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I'd Shop around online for the best price...

Here's a few Examples from a quick "Eaton 5115" search:
»www.pcmall.com/s?rch&q=e ··· age=true

»www.insight.com/search/n ··· =31&y=14

»www.cdw.com/shop/search/ ··· +it.y=12

»search.dell.com/results. ··· ck=deseg

-Tursiops_G.

Dream Killer
Graveyard Shift
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join:2002-08-09
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You really don't need it to be sine wave. As soon as the mains power enters your power supply, it gets greeted with a full-wave recitifier which turns any kind AC waveform into DC.

Tursiops_G
Technoid
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Tursiops_G

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That Used to be the case, But with the newer "Green", "80+ Efficiency" PSUs, it's now greeted first by an "Active PFC" circuit, which tries to bring the Power Factor as close to 1.0 (like a "Resistive load") as possible...

Unfortunately, Excessive High-frequency Harmonics on the AC input from *some* UPSes may Flummox *some* Active PFC Power Supplies into "Self-Protect Shutdown" (thinking that the AC input is too far out of whack for Safe operation).

In those cases, using a "Pure Sine Wave" UPS may be the only way to go...

-Tursiops_G.
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
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Monolith

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I tried a friends, Stepped Approximation Sinewave, ups, that did not work either. Do most of you keep your systems on a UPS?

Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
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join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Jahntassa

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said by Monolith:

I tried a friends, Stepped Approximation Sinewave, ups, that did not work either. Do most of you keep your systems on a UPS?
What brand and model of UPS was it?
Monolith
join:2007-07-25
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Monolith

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APC BACK-UPS XS 1300VA - Stepped approximation to a sinewave , this one won't work, so can rule that out. Think I am just going to have to take the plunge and buy one. Going to check with local place first, that might sell some that are sine wave, as I get 20% discount from work at this place.

urbanriot
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said by Monolith:

If you look at dell support forums and APC support forums, several other people that own the dell XPS 9000 are all having the same problem.
Can you please link to the threads you're referencing, I'd be interested to read more as I know of people running the same hardware on UPS's that you say are not compatible, so I'd like to do more research on what Dell is doing that might make this impossible, if it's really true.
RJ44
join:2001-10-19
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said by Monolith:

Do most of you keep your systems on a UPS?
I do. Two UPS's cover the 3 desktops, and my two HDTVs are each on their own UPS. Basically if it's electronic and valuable, it's on a UPS.

XBL2009
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join:2001-01-03
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I would return the stupid Dell and get something that doesn't need a "special" ups.
westom
join:2009-03-15

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said by Monolith:

westom, your post is not very helpful so why bother to post at all. I was told by dell that I need a sine wave UPS for the type of computer I have.
No Dell computer uses a power supply that defective. You are being told something that is not true. Why would Dell suddenly make a power supply that violates standards that even the original IBM PC had to conform to? That does not do what most every non-PC supply also must do?

Meanwhile, the only true sine wave UPS costs $500 and up. At least $500 for the UPS to output power as clean as what comes from AC mains. Anything less, well, this is the output typical of most 120 volt UPSes in battery backup mode: two 200 volt square waves with a 250 volts spike between those square waves. Some manufacturers will call that, subjectively, a type of sine wave output. Even that UPS is ideal power for every computer.

To get power from a UPS that is only as 'clean' as what comes from the AC mains - that UPS must be over $500.

Meanwhile, power from sub $500 UPS is cleanest when not in battery backup mode. That is when the computer is connected directly to AC mains - does not get 'dirtier' power from UPS circuits.

If you need 'pure sine waves', then spend over $500 for that UPS. Or replace the power supply - $60 full retail.

Now, if you read everything in that earlier post, you also notice what others discussed. A UPS outputs no power while its relay is switching. UPS manufacturers claim that relay switches in 10 ms. That is awful fast for any relay. Computer will work without any power for more than 17 ms. UPS hardware is made as cheap as possible (which is why a replacement battery costs almost as much as the entire UPS). Therefore slow relays can cause strange effects during switchover.

But also posted in that previous post was a test to identify that defect. To think like an engineer; not like an english major. Apparently you got so emotional as to not see that and a few other tests that would have identified the problem. To reach a conclusion from facts. That earlier post comes from one who does this stuff at the component level. Who actually knows this stuff. Accurately noted - no power suply needs pure sine waves. None. That 'pure sine wave' nonsense is what the naive will say due to frustration and no knowledge. Your experiments do not lead to the conclusions you have assumed. Do that previously posted test to discover if relay response time may be a factor.

Metatron2008
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Metatron2008

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I'd love to test this stupid psu with a multimeter and find out why the hell is would need a 'half' sinewave psu.

If they are selling a psu that violates standards, I'd replace it immediately. As well as call a lawyer.

urbanriot
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Yes, I agree with you as I don't see any technical information on those links that suggest this is necessary whatsoever. I see a group of non-technical people, some extremely novice, that have diagnosed a problem based on a post on Dell's web page. An email was sent by an APC representative that suggests a costlier Smart-UPS, but further asks the recipient to provide other information regarding other items plugged into the UPS.

I've connected systems that have higher specs than Dell's, and have 'efficient' power supplies, and they work fine on stepped sine wave UPS's. I also blame Dell's power supply on this one.

Metatron2008
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Metatron2008

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said by urbanriot:

Yes, I agree with you as I don't see any technical information on those links that suggest this is necessary whatsoever. I see a group of non-technical people, some extremely novice, that have diagnosed a problem based on a post on Dell's web page. An email was sent by an APC representative that suggests a costlier Smart-UPS, but further asks the recipient to provide other information regarding other items plugged into the UPS.

I've connected systems that have higher specs than Dell's, and have 'efficient' power supplies, and they work fine on stepped sine wave UPS's. I also blame Dell's power supply on this one.
I'd love to see the specs on this pc in question. I have a custom built core i7, with gtx 260 on a ocz 700 watt psu. I use Opti-ups Es1500c (As I do with my other pcs), which has simulated sine wave, not true sine wave, and I've never had a pc 'not work' with any ups.

NYR 56
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Firstly, if it is true that that computer will not work with a regular UPS, I would demand a replacement from Dell that does. There is absolutely no reason why a computer built in 2009 will not function with a consumer level UPS.

One solution that was mentioned above is a great ideal as well. Simply replace the power supply with a proper PSU. You would save money as compared to buying an unnecessarily complex UPS. You may even just convince Dell to send you one for free.

Either way, no one in their right mind should accept the situation and shell out more money for a PSU that is defective by design.