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No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
reply to jfmezei

Re: Do You Warm-Up Your Car In Cold Weather? Don't Do It!

You're making some sweeping and inaccurate generalizations of Americans.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

110% Fail. Same amount will be produced whether you idle or drive.
The engine warms up more quickly while driving, so no, less is unburnt fuel is produced if you drive the car.
--
Striving for Parfection.


i1me2ao
Premium
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS
reply to Xstar_Lumini


keyboard5684
Sam

join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to Last Parade
Does it take you back in time? Or forward too? I know when you hit 80mp/h it does that, not sure on km/h...

Too many movies I do watch?

dipweed23

join:2009-07-21
Ypsilanti, MI

1 edit
reply to i1me2ao
Myth #2: Idling is good for your engine. Reality: Excessive idling can actually damage your engine components, including cylinders, spark plugs, and exhaust systems. Fuel is only partially combusted when idling because an engine does not operate at its peak temperature. This leads to the build up of fuel residues on cylinder walls that can damage engine components and increase fuel consumption.
This is bogous and not based on facts. No matter if you are driving or idling if the engine is not up to operating temp it is going to run rich, timing is retarded and the platnum in the media of your cat is not heated up enough to do its job properly. The average light off temperature at which the catalytic converter begins to function ranges from 400 to 600 degrees F. At an idle, yes it will take it longer to heat up than at 2500 RPM, but nobody here is suggesting to idle for hours to warm up either.
For every two minutes a car is idling, it uses about the same amount of fuel it takes to go about one mile.
Umm, at what speed and in what gear? What make and model vehicle are they talking about? What is the Idle speed compared to the engine speed while traveling those two miles?
Statistics like these can't be believed unless backed with the data sets to prove them as accurate. Most statistics can be presented in a fashon to prove the point that the author wants to prove!

Protip: If your trips are less than what it would take for the temp guage to reach at least 150F, LET IT IDLE, or drive some more!!! You need those operating temps to clear condensation from the internal parts of the engine. If you don't, you should be changing your oil at least once a month, because you are contaminating your oil with that condensation. Water will combine with sulfer dioxide from the exhaust gases that normally make it into your oil and create acid which will eat at engine components. "Burn off" the water, and no matter when you start off, you will be fine.


james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to ctggzg
said by ctggzg:

Read the owner's manual. The people who engineer and maintain the car know how it's supposed to run.
But does the writer of the manual know? :O
--
said by Metatron2008:

But people who download thousands of movies and games.... Yes, they are as bad as any murderer


keyboard5684
Sam

join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to No_Strings
I agree. Why does jfmezei think that American's are like this? Do you drive a hybrid? Then, the electric would start the car moving until you need the engine. Same as if you were getting something in the convenience store, or whatever.

In the US, in many cities and some states, it is illegal to leave your car running if you are not behind the wheel or for a certain time limit. Texas is one of many states that has such rules...
Admin code. Or read the law itself... Texas idling no longer than 5 minutes.

I am sometimes amazed that people globally seem to forget that the US is a very diverse place with many different opinions. I think that your "prejudice" is not justified. It depends where AND what type of pollution you are looking at. The top 10 polluted countries do not include the United States. However, as far as pollution in regard to output of carbon, Canada is right up there with the US and China. Google it.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:

The engine warms up more quickly while driving..........
Thank you for stating the obvious.
You forget that until the engine is at operating temp the computer air fuel compensations are
just accelerated dumping more pollution and contaminates in a quicker time frame.
You can't argue with physics and thermo dynamics but I'm sure you try.


way2evil
Premium
join:2007-09-14
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

I know that this is a USA forum and discussing the environment is akin to discussing evolution and isn't tolerated BUT...

Letting your car idle ANYWHERE, be it when you inittially start it, of when you wait at a convenience store for someone to buy something is wasteful. Not only does it burn your money (litterally), but it also contributes to pollution.

You may not believe in global warming. But do you at least believe in pollution ? If you enjoy breathing in the exhaust from your car, you should check in to some suicide clinic.

Idling engines, especially when cold, have very inefficient combustion. The quickler you rev up your engine, the quickler it moves into a more efficient zone. The total time spent in inefficient combustion is less than if you let engine warm up at idle mode.

The challenge in very cold weather isn't "warming up" the car, it is starting the engine. Once your engine has started and stabilised (matter of seconds), it isn't going to do much good to let it idle. It is already warm enough to result in ignition of the fuel in the pistons.

Idling wont start to move the grease/oil in wheels and other systems. Moving the car will. And this is why you need to go slow at first to let the grease/oil loosen up (with some warming due to friction).

And BTW, this is why there are summer and winter oils for cars. (In fact, even gasoline is formulated differently in winter in northern climates)
LOL envorinment. Who cares? Go spew that crap somewhere else.


fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
reply to The Pig
said by The Pig:

I can't go faster then 35MPH or the check engine light comes on because without the cable hooked up the engine it doesn't know to shift gears (automatic).
While I feel your pain, that's actually kinda funny. At least a little.
--
Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23

1 edit
reply to keyboard5684
>However, as far as pollution in regard to output of carbon, Canada is
>right up there with the US and China. Google it.

Canada is unftunatly now worse than the USA and probably China. We are stuck with George W Harper who is still acting as if his uncle Bush was in power south of the Border.

Harper's proposal at Copenhagen was to cut emissions GROWTH by 10%. This would force the Alberta oil sands project to grow their Co2 emissions by only 152% in the next 10 years instead of growing by their planned 162%. (Left unchecked, the Alberta Oil sands project could product up to 40% of the World's CO2.)

Canada also blocked climate agreement at the Commonwealth meeting a few weeks ago.

So Canada's leader is now the dinausor in the room. The Australia, USA and China have changed their opposition to the enviornment (or are in the process of changing), with India making baby steps. But Canada moved in the opposite direction because protecting the oil industry is Job #1 for a prime minister whose party is funded by oil industry.

The problem is that Geoge W Harper is a disciple of the New American Centuryt neo-cons who controlled Bush. So he reflects a mentality that is still active in the USA, although not in power.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by jfmezei:

Canada is unftunatly now worse than the USA and probably China.
This isn't Talking to Americans and you aren't Rick Mercer.
We are gathered here today to argue endlessly about the mechanical aspects of warming up our vehicles.
Come here if you want to talk climate politics. Wolfie needs some backup. »Dr. Tim Ball On the Significance of the CRU Hacked Documents


Kendo

@optonline.net
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Depending on the make model can be a big difference!
I always let my direct injection engine warm up! It uses oil to drive high pressure injectors that push fuel directly into the compression chamber. Even though the oil weight (viscosity) says its 15/40 I can tell you that I have to warm the oil before changing it or it takes forever to drain.
Then I let it run for at least a minute before I shut it down to cool the Turbo and exhaust manifolds.
Besides you can "wash the bearings and/or wear out the oil pump sooner by using oil thats too thick or too cold....


Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2
Here in Toronto the coldests temps get anywhere from -20 to -26, and let me tell you that no car will start and immediately drive off without stalling or sputtering. Even other objects need warming up, what makes you think a vehicle doesn't?

P.S. also some guys here lost my point, this post has nothing to do with warming your car to keep you you warm, I'm strictly talking warming your vehicle for its own good.


XT0RT
S3x, Drugs, War

join:2001-07-28
Edmonton, AB

3 edits
Here in Edmonton, it was -30/-35C with -40/-50C windchills. My car is 7 years old with 170000 KM's on it. There is no way in hell I am moving that car before the engine and all the electronics are warmed up.
--
Asus P5Q-E / Q9450 @ 3.6 / 4GB OCZ Reaper HPC 8500 / XFX 9800 GX2 / Windows 7 Ultimate x64


pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
said by XT0RT:

Here in Edmonton, it was -30/-35C with -40/-50C windchills. My car is 7 years old with 170000 KM's on it. There is no way in hell I am moving that car before the engine and all the electronics are warmed up.
LOL electronics work better when they're cold. Your engine doesn't really need to warm up either regardless of whether you think it does. But hey your reasoning isn't based on facts anyway so why listen to anybody?

I wait a bit for the revs to go down a little mostly for the sake of the transmission when I shift into drive.

7 years and 170k, that's spritely! I've never had a car so new and North Bay is just about as cold as Edmonton.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Whoever wrote that article (and some who have posted here) must always drive alone and/or lives in a mild climate.

Driving a car full of people without any warm-up in cold weather (below 25F) is unsafe, as the windows will instantly fog up to the point of translucence. It takes a least a couple of minutes for the defogger to do its job on the windshield under those conditions.
--
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke. "Walk the Talk".


XT0RT
S3x, Drugs, War

join:2001-07-28
Edmonton, AB

2 edits
reply to pnjunction
said by pnjunction:

said by XT0RT:

Here in Edmonton, it was -30/-35C with -40/-50C windchills. My car is 7 years old with 170000 KM's on it. There is no way in hell I am moving that car before the engine and all the electronics are warmed up.
LOL electronics work better when they're cold. Your engine doesn't really need to warm up either regardless of whether you think it does. But hey your reasoning isn't based on facts anyway so why listen to anybody?

I wait a bit for the revs to go down a little mostly for the sake of the transmission when I shift into drive.

7 years and 170k, that's spritely! I've never had a car so new and North Bay is just about as cold as Edmonton.
Sigh, have fun with your transmission replacements after the crap you put them through. I'm sure your torque converter likes being forced to work at such temperatures without a decent warmup. Ontarions and cars... not always a good mix. Try driving a car with a hydraulic clutch and see what happens, seeing that I own a car with a manual transmission.

quote:
LOL electronics work better when they're cold.
You're so full of shit, that just proves it.
--
Asus P5Q-E / Q9450 @ 3.6 / 4GB OCZ Reaper HPC 8500 / XFX 9800 GX2 / Windows 7 Ultimate x64


pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
said by XT0RT:

Ontarions and cars... not always a good mix.
quote:
LOL electronics work better when they're cold.
You're so full of shit, that just proves it.
OK explain to me why electronics don't like cold, and if so why it's better to heat them up (heat up electronics..snicker) idling rather than driving.

Think about why your computer has cooling fans, and why overclockers and supercomputers use liquid cooling, sometimes to cool to sub-zero temperatures.

If you want the reason they work better cold (although 'better' just means with more margin if it works at high T anyways which it should), carrier mobility in semiconductors decreases with temperature (link) and thermal noise increases with temperature (link). MOSFET threshold voltage increases with lower temperature but this shouldn't be a problem in properly designed circuits.

Edmontonians and talking out their asses...apparently a good mix.


XT0RT
S3x, Drugs, War

join:2001-07-28
Edmonton, AB

2 edits
quote:
Think about why your computer has cooling fans, and why overclockers and supercomputers use liquid cooling, sometimes to cool to sub-zero temperatures.
1. That's merely airflow, which has nothing to do with the way a car works. Your car sits stationary while you warm it up, so there is really no airflow under the hood of the car minus the radiator fan that kicks in once the thermostat has reached a certain temperature.

2. Overclocking and liquid cooling. Yeah, they did 5 or 6 years ago when Prescotts and Athlon's were running 50C at stock temperatures. Get with the times. Aircooling with a high end cooler is more practical and common place in overclocking seeing the Core 2 doesn't get that hot. Watercooling, Prometia, etc. is for showoffs. They are only cooling the processor which can handle being that low. A motherboard cannot, such as the one inside your vehicles OBD-I/II unit.

You've strayed so far off topic, that your arguments don't even make any sense. Good riddance to you. Think twice before using Wikipedia as an argument for something you can't comprehend.
--
Asus P5Q-E / Q9450 @ 3.6 / 4GB OCZ Reaper HPC 8500 / XFX 9800 GX2 / Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Expand your moderator at work


THUD300
Part Of A Complete Breakfast
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Decatur, IL
reply to pnjunction

Re: Do You Warm-Up Your Car In Cold Weather? Don't Do It!

said by pnjunction:

If you want the reason they work better cold (although 'better' just means with more margin if it works at high T anyways which it should), carrier mobility in semiconductors decreases with temperature (link) and thermal noise increases with temperature (link). MOSFET threshold voltage increases with lower temperature but this shouldn't be a problem in properly designed circuits.

OK, that makes my head hurt....
--
Illinois: where the governors make the license plates!


disconnected

@snet.net
reply to jfmezei
I have a neighbor who idles his two bulldozers all day long. Sometimes he's working in the yard with one machine while the other is idling. Other times, both machines idle for hours on end. The guy is the most wasteful neighbor I know, but he's also a politician, land developer and likes to play with his "toys". Needless to say, diesel fumes smoking up the wilderness doesn't make life pleasant for the rest of us.
Expand your moderator at work


pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to XT0RT

Re: Do You Warm-Up Your Car In Cold Weather? Don't Do It!

said by XT0RT:

Think twice before using Wikipedia as an argument for something you can't comprehend.
Hahah..nice addition to your post.

Those articles are for you to get caught up. I have knowledge with semiconductor physics, device electronics and circuit noise because I work with them on a daily basis. I design mixed-signal electronics for a living.

Still waiting for your explanation of warming up electronics and why these circuits need to do this while the engine is idling (and the electronics are still monitoring sensors and managing fuel injection, ignition timing, valve timing, etc... pretty much the same way they would be while driving).


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

Thank you for stating the obvious.
You forget that until the engine is at operating temp the computer air fuel compensations are
just accelerated dumping more pollution and contaminates in a quicker time frame.
You can't argue with physics and thermo dynamics but I'm sure you try.
The converters and O2 sensors reach temperature more quickly when the exhaust volume is greater. This is not a linear relationship as you suggest. In exceptionally cold temperatures they may not even reach optimum temperatures at idle.
One reason is that engines are more efficient under load than at idle (BSFC). A throttled engine is never as efficient as one that is not throttled (operated under load).
--
Striving for Parfection.


RR Conductor
NWP RR Inc.,serving NW CA
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

3 edits
reply to Xstar_Lumini
When we lived in Pocatello, Idaho (1990-1997), I had a electric engine block heater installed in my Toyota Pickup. I would plug it in the night before, and the engine would be warm when I started it up in the morning.

Here in Redwood Valley (about 120 miles northwest of SF in Mendocino County), it gets down into the teens during the winter, and even some single digits on occasion, but no sub zero stuff like we had in Poky

»www.google.com/products?sourceid···AQrQQwAg
--
You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:

The converters and O2 sensors reach temperature more quickly when the exhaust volume is greater. This is not a linear relationship as you suggest. In exceptionally cold temperatures they may not even reach optimum temperatures at idle. One reason is that engines are more efficient under load than at idle (BSFC). A throttled engine is never as efficient as one that is not throttled (operated under load).
Interesting points and if correct make a valid argument to drive off sooner and you may be right.
However if my windows are not up to temp I still can't go.


TOPDAWG
Premium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON
kudos:3
reply to Xstar_Lumini
I will if it's super cold out and my windows got ice on them.

Bobcat79
Premium
join:2001-02-04
reply to mikelz
said by mikelz:

If you do not warm your car up, the oil sits in the crankcase in a gelatinous state until the oil temp goes up and gets pumped. In the meantime, your crankshaft, pistons & rods, camshaft and valves are all doing metal-on-metal contact. The same is true for your automatic transmission and transmission fluid.

Go ahead and run it cold if you want to buy a new one sooner.
Your logic is faulty. Since it takes longer for the engine to get to operating temperature if the car is just sitting there, by your logic you want to drive the car so it warms up sooner.

Of course, you're wrong about a lot of things. I'm just pointing out the error in your own logic.