Reviews:
 ·voip.ms
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| [Other] VBuzzer: Issue with Storing Credit Card Number VBuzzer recently changed their policy and they now require users to store their credit card number on their Website in order to keep renewing their number. Paypal payments are no longer accepted for yearly registration fees.
I have a few problems with this policy. Firstly, there is a lot of credit card fraud. Hackers are able to infiltrate databases of large merchants. Anyone remember the TJX breach? Secondly, as far as I know, merchants are not supposed to keep credit card numbers on file. Thirdly, if I ever had to dispute charges with them it would be difficult as they only communicate via messages in the control panel.
The problem with this is that, for some reason, sometimes messages sent to them do not appear in the outbox so there is no record of contacting support. Visa credit card providers usually require proof of cancellation or proof that you contacted the merchant to resolve the dispute. This proof would be hard to provide with VBuzzer.
Would you guys consider switching VOIP providers based on this policy change? As you can see from my review, I'm a VBuzzer fan but I also don't want to have my credit card # out there.
The other issue I have with them is that they censor forum posts. Currently, there is one about this topic but they have deleted a few others about this.
VBuzzer claims that they have created this policy so that they can verify customer's name and address and to cut down on scammers using their service. When it was pointed out that they can verify name and address through paypal they responded by saying that it's not as reliable.
What are your thoughts about this? |
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maziloFrom MaziloPremium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
kudos:1 | said by Rastan:Would you guys consider switching VOIP providers based on this policy change? As you can see from my review, I'm a VBuzzer fan but I also don't want to have my credit card # out there. Then, move on.
VBuzzer claims that they have created this policy so that they can verify customer's name and address and to cut down on scammers using their service. This is just an unsupported excuse, AFAIC.
When it was pointed out that they can verify name and address through paypal they responded by saying that it's not as reliable. Ask VB if CC is also reliable to them and consumers? Worse comes to worst, just use a 1-time CC.
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PX EliezerPremium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:12 Reviews:
·voip.ms
·callwithus
·Callcentric
·Vitelity VOIP
·Optimum Voice
·Gizmo5
| reply to Rastan
Heck, TJX was small potatoes compared to others:
»www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/Augu···810.html
But the point is, everyone is at risk all the time anyway, as the above item shows.
I don't know how much more you are at risk with having a card on file at VBuzzer.
As was said, you can use a 1-time card, prepaid card, or use a card with small limit.
Or, consider Voip.MS. They are a Canadian provider that does not require a card to be on file. |
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 Arne BolenHappy Anveo customerPremium
join:2009-06-21
Planet Earth
kudos:1
·Anveo
·Callcentric
·voip.ms
| reply to Rastan
said by Rastan:Would you guys consider switching VOIP providers based on this policy change? Yes, personally I avoid merchants not accepting PayPal.
If you switch to another VoIP provider make sure to tell VBuzzer they lost a customer due to not accepting PayPal.
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 RockyBBPremium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO | reply to Rastan
said by Rastan:What are your thoughts about this? I think you're being a weenie. The credit card industry has instituted significant compliance standards, and significant penalties for non-compliance, for protection of end user credit card data. Remember that identity theft is a pain in your ass, but the banks end up paying for it. The credit card processors are required to insist on a security audit for each of its members. Problems of the past have been addressed. Is it foolproof? Probably not. But attacks on Vbuzzer or any VOIP company are not likely as there aren't enough customers to make a hack attempt worth even a 12-year-old Russian mobster's time. Do a google search on "PCI compliance."
If you're worried, then go somewhere else. But it seems like the worst reason in the world to make a change. |
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| reply to Rastan
There's another string on this issue. But if you're concerned about your card information being hacked, open a credit card account with an issuer that also offers virtual numbers (like Citibank). Set a limit to that number, or cancel it right after they process the yearly fee. |
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Mangowww.toao.net
join:2008-12-25
Alberta
kudos:8 Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Anveo
 ·Shaw
·FreePhoneLine
·TELUS
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1 edit | reply to RockyBB
I don't like having my credit card on file with anyone because I want to pay bills when I think they should they paid rather than having them pay themselves. I do like PayPal because of its added security features. Auto-billing is not inherently a bad thing if done in a legitimate way but based on my personal opinion I would side with Rastan.
said by RockyBB:I think you're being a weenie. How very professional of you! 
said by RockyBB:The credit card processors are required to insist on a security audit for each of its members. Problems of the past have been addressed. Is it foolproof? Hardly. I've been through one of those audits. All they did was a port scan on my web server and told me what services I had running, which I already knew. They asked me if those were all necessary. I said yes.
That was the extent of it, basically.
m.
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Reviews:
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| reply to RockyBB
said by RockyBB: I think you're being a weenie. That's Mr. Weenie to you.
said by RockyBB:The credit card industry has instituted significant compliance standards, and significant penalties for non-compliance, for protection of end user credit card data. Remember that identity theft is a pain in your ass, but the banks end up paying for it. This is debatable. With the introduction of chip & pin technology, it will be very hard to get your money back if the pin number was used with a counterfeit card because it is the card holder's responsibility to protect their pin number. This is an entirely separate issue than what I'm talking about, but what you stated does not take this liability shift into consideration.
In my case, I'm more worried about disputing transactions with VBuzzer, partly because of the limited way they communicate with their customers. Disputing transactions from a merchant you have willingly provided your credit card number to can be a royal pain in the ass. It's a long process that can take months. It's far worse than the process of reporting fraud because there is a lot of back and forth with the merchant you are in a dispute with. |
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2 edits | Chip and PIN technology is the way it is in the United Kingdom. I have a NatWest MasterCard, and if I'm traveling there and I don't know the PIN that goes with the credit card, I am out of luck. It's just like using a debit card. The U.S. is behind the curve here, but it will eventually come. I'll dread it because of all the credit cards with PINs I'll need to remember.
But fraud is a fact of life. I opened up one new credit card earlier this year (with Banco Popular). Before I even had a chance to use the card, somehow the information from it was cloned onto a blank card and was used for purchases by someone traveling from Ontario, California to Texas. They were "non swiped" transactions (the magnetic stripe was invalid), so the number was manually entered, but all sales went through. Total of the fraudulent charges was about $500. After I signed a written statement to the bank that I had no knowledge of all this, they were satisfied I wasn't responsible. A new account number was created, and that ended that.
Anyway, stuff happens. One can hide in a cave all their life and still be a victim of fraud or identity theft. |
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BruceNHi
join:2006-11-17
Roswell, GA | reply to Rastan
PayPal or Credit cards pose a similar risk to a merchant.
Merchants may NEVER sote the 3 digit code you supply that is on the back of your card.
Merchants never must allow employees to see the actual CC number. Last 4 digits is the only thing they might see.
All CC numbers must be encrypted on their servers.
These are FCC mandates that do not apply to non telcom outfits.
So in other words, CC numbers are far safer with a telco, IMHO |
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PX EliezerPremium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:12 | Good points!
However, the OP was asking about VBuzzer.
They will be under Canadian regs which may be different. |
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BruceNHi
join:2006-11-17
Roswell, GA | reply to Rastan
Does the FCC not control everything 
And for the record, the most dangerous place for a credit card is restaurants.
#1 place your numbers are stolen.
Where else do you hand someone your card and they have it for a few minutes out of your sight? |
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nitzanPremium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:2 | reply to BruceN
said by BruceN:These are FCC mandates that do not apply to non telcom outfits. So in other words, CC numbers are far safer with a telco, IMHO But VBuzzer is Canadian - so FCC mandates don't really apply. |
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2 edits | reply to BruceN
said by BruceN:Does the FCC not control everything And for the record, the most dangerous place for a credit card is restaurants. #1 place your numbers are stolen. Where else do you hand someone your card and they have it for a few minutes out of your sight? I agree with that 100%!! Several years ago I used a credit card I don't use often at a sit down Mexican restaurant in Granada Hills. Later that same day it was "off to the races" with that number, as that card was used numerous times on telephone porn/chat numbers. I read there is a crime ring that rewards restaurant staff in providing numbers that they use to run up charges on phone services they get commissions on. I called the bank and they canceled the card but I don't think they did anything else. I called the restaurant and they claim they "don't know anything." I'm starting to think that crime does pay. I've been a victim of stuff like this many times and I've come to the conclusion that unless the loss is a huge amount, nobody cares.
Also, in watching one of those to-catch-a-thief shows on MSNBC, they showed a cashier at a Mervyn's department store who collected credit card numbers. Once she had a good supply, a friend of her's would come to "shop" and made sure that she lined up at her register. When she presented her credit card, the cashier pretended that her magnetic strip didn't work, and thus she had to manually enter in all the numbers. She used numbers from other cards, which included the three digit codes from back.
So whether or not merchants are never allowed to store all the numbers from a card, there's always a problem with whomever at the store handles credit card purchases writing down numbers and/or memorizing them. |
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PX EliezerPremium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:12 Reviews:
·voip.ms
·callwithus
·Callcentric
·Vitelity VOIP
·Optimum Voice
·Gizmo5
| I'll almost never use a credit card at a restaurant.
If I do, I'll use Amex. At least I know they have intelligent CSR if there is a problem.
Here in NJ (as in Oregon) we are not allowed to pump our own gas. So I sure as hell won't use a credit card at a gas station. Some of our gas station folks look pretty scary.
And debit cards are even worse, because the money is sucked out of your bank account instantly. |
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4 edits | said by PX Eliezer:Here in NJ (as in Oregon) we are not allowed to pump our own gas. So I sure as hell won't use a credit card at a gas station. It's too long of a story to explain it all here, but a few years ago I pumped a small amount of gas into my car using a self-service pump with a credit card at a local Mobil station on the way to work, and I ended up being interviewed by the LAPD as a potential witness/accomplice/suspect in a local murder/arson investigation. An investigator went to all the local gas stations looking for small purchases of gasoline at about the same time a fire started at a murder scene. His logic was the culprits had to get the gas from somewhere to start the fire. Since I pumped a small amount of gas, I must have filled up a gas can.
Ever since then, my co-workers now treat me with respect. They didn't know I can go on some wild murder-arson spree during the early morning hours, and then go right to my job, quickly clean all the soot off of me, and then sit at my desk like nothing happened.
Anyway, after the detective interviewed me, it was the last I heard from him. I think he realized he was wasting his time.
Lesson learned: Don't fill your car up with gas at self-service with a credit card unless you need more than a half a tank. |
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| reply to Rastan
This was posted to the vbuzzer forum towards the ridiculous, rude, and ignorant admin who goes simply by the name... admin.
I have been with vbuzzer for two years. I have never messed around with the system in any way. I have never attempted to manipulate or disrupt vbuzzer, but now, because some bad apples decided to mess around with you and your loose security measures, I am now treated like a criminal after being a loyal customer. This is a disgusting practice to place on customers that were paying you UP FRONT. YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN PAID for a years subscription and time not even used yet through the vbuzzer credit system and yet you think these people are committing scams? Are you even listening to yourself?
You state you have ghosting people... but are you not one? You go by the name of admin and nothing else. After you admit all these security problems, you want us to submit credit card information to verify validity of our persons when you can not verify yourself or that your system is now protected by any means. VISA and MASTERCARD states not to give you credit info.... think about that.
The better business bureau rates you now as an F. I must agree wholeheartedly if only on the grounds of how you are treating loyal customers who you have never been found or caught manipulating anything. At the least you could make an exception for the ones who have been with you and never screwed with you.
What about all the people that bought voip/sip hardware to use your service and then you deny them the service unless they verify themselves with a credit card they may or may not own. I for one do not own one and NEVER EVER will. Credit cards are a scam on the people and they are what caused the whole credit bubble to exist in the first place. For some reason you want to perpetuate it.
Your excuses for this are that everyone is doing it... wow are you twelve? Because rip off Rogers and Bell do it does not mean we will. The reason Rogers and Bell are loosing hundreds of customers a day are because of treating their customers like this. Ghost charges, fraudulent disconnection and reconnection charges that are never stated before hand... activation charges, late fees, liability clauses squeezed into fine print at bottom of emails.
Paypal requires verification through a BANK ACCOUNT or CREDIT CARD. It is far more secure than requesting someone to submit their info in the manner you request because people can submit false cards still.
I tried to verify with my girlfriends card who is right beside me and lives with me and your system will not accept it so what does one do now? You could not have charged anything to it because it is full but now I read that you send a charge to it to most likely verify it exists and is valid... Canada's wonderland does the same thing but they charge one dollar... not over twenty! AND you have customers who are NOT being refunded and in some cases you have flat out refused to return it.
It really sounds like you guys are the scammers here, not the other way around. Now you have to prove to your customers you are even worth while any more for us to want to be with you.
Why the hell would you want to get away from paypal users that have been paying you ahead of time. That makes absolutely 0 sense. You claim other telcos do this but they charge AFTER USE... not before.
I also put money in to your vbuzzer credit system in hopes of renewing my number with the available credit as I always did for two years... you never informed me of the policy changes so now i have all this credit and I don't even want to use your service any more... yet I read online that you won't refund anybody...
Sounds like great small claims court case in the making. Or a terrific story to run in the Toronto Star from my editor friend. He loves ripping apart scam companies that state in their OWN POLICY that they accept paypal transactions and pull crap like this. He has run an article on the bus transit issues, gas companies, and hopefully now, fake telco you consider yourself.
Actually come to think of it... I should contact my friend from Bob FM too. He hates seeing Canadians scammed.
If people are scamming, you cut them off and keep the funds already paid to you. To do this to all your customers is a slap in the face of a company that clearly has no idea what they are doing any more.
What is your fun ghost response going to be this time admin. Are you going to deny better business bureau exists or two of the claims your company has ignored.
Good luck in the future vbuzzer... I imagine your company's life will be short thanks to your own stupidity. |
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 N9MDPremium
join:2005-10-08
Boca Raton, FL
kudos:5
·VOIPo
·voip.ms
·Callcentric
·PHONE POWER
| reply to Rastan
I side with those who use credit cards. I tried PayPal in the distant past ... and it became a true pain in the a$$ ... so I never used it again.
My VOIPo and CallCentric accounts involve auto payments with a variety of AmEx, VISA, MasterCard cards.
I put more faith in credit cards than I do in PayPal. My wife and I have had several "illegitimate" uses of our credit cards ... including someone signing up with match.com (a dating service) for $60 ... another crook charging several thousand dollars of TV/DVD merchandise at a discount store 60 miles away from home ... another buying a $6,000 piece of jewelry on the other side of the US in Arizona ... and so on. Similar fraudulent charges have appeared on my medical partners' corporate cards. In almost every single case, the credit card companies' Security Division actually telephoned me ... note that in addition to my personal cards, I am the primary cardholder on our corporate card accounts as well ... to alert me and confirm the charges were not authorized. In a few cases, I called the CC companies and they immediately removed the charges ... without any need for me to file a written complaint.
And for the "oldies" among us, I was able to obtain a charge back (refund) for every one of my prepaid SunRocket accounts when SR sunsetted.
Give me a credit card anytime. |
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RockyBBPremium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO
1 edit | reply to crob000
withdrawn. |
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Reviews:
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| reply to N9MD
I switched from vbuzzer as a result of this policy that forces customers to store their credit card number in order to renew their service. For the most part, credit card fraud is covered but when you willingly provide the card to a merchant, it becomes a dispute. This could become a hassle depending on whether or not vbuzzer cooperates and acts fairly.
I'm not implying that vbuzzer will do anything shady, but to state that everyone will be covered if there is fraud is not entirely accurate. They might be, but disputes are entirely different than fraudulent charges made by someone who somehow obtained your card number.
Vbuzzer stated that they implemented this policy because they need to know who their customers are. I don't buy this... and if it's true, then it's a really bad business decision. They can verify their customer's identity by only accepting payments via paypal if the account is verified. If it's not verified, then they have the option to pay using a credit card. But at least there's an option.
Then I thought that maybe there got hit by a lot of fraudulent transactions via paypal and lost a significant amount of money. However, the same people who take over paypal accounts to make fraudulent charges are the same ones who obtain other people's credit card numbers to do the same thing.
I don't quite understand what vbuzzer has to gain. |
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