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qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

1 recommendation

People like TK...

People like TK, who think it's A-OK for the govt. to run roughshod all over our hard fought and won constitutional protections ARE the problem!

AND...I present another thing for you. The USA is SUPPOSED to be THE beacon of freedom that all other countries aspire to! That's what WE tell the people of other countries-and then WE turn around and screw OUR OWN CITIZENS this way? How can other countries possibly believe the rhetoric we spew when we don't even make it apply to US? How can THEY trust us when WE act this way?


roc5955
Premium
join:2005-11-26
Rosendale, NY
Believe you me, this has been no "beacon of freedom" in quite some time. Look at our military presence around the world. One would think that once the "threat" of communism was put down, with the breakup of the USSR, we wouldn't need those troops all over Europe, and everywhere else.

This is just an extension of that military power. 9/11 was a ploy to get rid of the rights granted to us in the Bill of Rights, and they accomplished it with the "Patriot" Act. FISA courts were around before this appalling law, where they could wiretap now, get warrants later. It's just a continuing end run that those who never wanted there to be a Bill of Rights have been trying to do for all of our country's history. This is essentially the same story, different century, so there are different circumstances.

What I don't get, is why people who want to see less government, go crazy if this sort of thing happens, or when someone proposes that we spend less on the military budget, and the like.
--
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to qworster
said by qworster:

People like TK, who think it's A-OK for the govt. to run roughshod all over our hard fought and won constitutional protections ARE the problem!
The President abided by the law (18 USC 2511). The same law which was used to grant so-called "immunity" for actions during the period between 9/11 and passage of the Patriot Act to better accommodate the President's claimed needs.

The only people who seem to be behaving unconstitutionally are those who:

1. Couldn't get Congress to investigate wrong-doing (resorting to civil suits to accomplish punishment).
2. Couldn't get Congress to agree with them that the President's claimed needs were wrong (Congress instead revising FISA to accommodate the President's needs).
3. Couldn't prevent Congress from granting "immunity" (which was based upon existing law, 18 USC 2511, recognizing the power of the Executive Branch).
4. Can't get 18 USC 2511 amended to eliminate the President's inherent power recognized by that law.

You guys are basically saying the government should operate in a way which the Constitution doesn't provide for, and you're too lazy to amend the Constitution to accomplish that either(!).

Mark


The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream

1 recommendation

...sad but true.

What I see is more people complaining about how the law is being unfairly changed, but don't do anything about it. If you guys really cared THAT much about this, you wouldn't be complaining on an Internet site. As for me, I'm actually going to do something about it, all you have to do is contact your Congress members and show themthat you don't like what is happening, write a letter, get a protest going or something, instead of whining here.
--
Do or do not, there is no try! - Yoda

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to amigo_boy
So by your train of thought what was the FISA court setup for?

Sounds like everything was in place and there was no need for this court and yet it was setup for........... ?

geonap
lolatidiots

join:2005-12-14
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:1
reply to The Limit
do you remember the last protest that worked ?

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to The Limit
said by The Limit:

...sad but true.

What I see is more people complaining about how the law is being unfairly changed, but don't do anything about it.
Exactly. I'm not necessarily justifying 18 USC 2511, or the current state of FISA, etc. I think things could be improved tremendously (greater government power with greater oversight).

The thing that gets tiring is the constant arm-chair whining about how everything is unconstitutional (when it's not), and no effort to change things that are in the whiner's control (legislatively, or by amendment).

Nobody can begin to make such a contribution without understanding where we are. Ranting about everything being unconstitutional just contributes to nobody knowing where they are.

People talk about how "the founders would spin in their graves if..." IMO, the founders would be amazed that their Constitution has been in effect for 220 years -- when they couldn't live with their own Constitution for more than 12 years.

Or, they'd spin in their graves about how our standard of living is so superior to theirs, yet we spend our time having a wee-wee contest over how technological/social advances which led to that improved standard of living also presented challenges, resulted in greater government control to meet those challenges (i.e., a logical trade-off improving the position of both the individual and government.).

Mark

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:

So by your train of thought what was the FISA court setup for?

Sounds like everything was in place and there was no need for this court and yet it was setup for........... ?
By your train of thought, if FISA accommodated the requirements presented by 9/11, Congress's amendments with the Patriot Act did nothing?

If you want to understand how FISA didn't accommodate those circumstances, review the Patriot Act's changes.

Mark

cyclone_z

join:2006-06-19
Ames, IA
reply to The Limit

Don't forget about the money (or Poland!)

You forgot the part about the money. I don't have the fund$ that AT$T ($BC Southworstern Bell) has. Or Veri$on.

I called senator chuck "go work for John Deere" grassley about this and he didn't give a sh*t. One day I was riding in the passenger seat of my girlfriend's car when we overtook a ford taurus on lincoln way with the license plate grssly3. He was napping in the passenger seat -- don't know who the driver was -- and so I rolled down my window and yelled, "STOP SPYING ON US!!!" I thought that might get the message across. Did no good. He told a caller on his TV show soon afterwards that he should be happy about the unchecked spying.

I almost went up and talked to Tom "Support our troops as long as it's only in words" Latham when I saw him in the next booth at a restaurant but decided it was pointless.


The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream

1 recommendation

With that type of mentality, nothing gets changed. Money isn't the be all, end all. Myself, I'm not sure what steps to take (except for the one I listed above), and if that fails, then I find someone who does. If you are as tired as I am with the current system as it stands, then why don't you join me?
--
Do or do not, there is no try! - Yoda

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22

1 recommendation

reply to cyclone_z
said by cyclone_z:

-- and so I rolled down my window and yelled, "STOP SPYING ON US!!!"
And then you promptly resumed playing your GameBoy?

Nothing will affect change unless you can form a coalition who agrees with you. Screaming out a car window at 60 MPH isn't going to win many people over. It's just cathartic for you.

If you're serious about changing corporate influence, you should start an "Amend the 14th" movement. Put it together so it's intelligible. Not a Lyndon LaRouche, psycho-babble, conspiracy rant which makes people more afraid of you than the problem you want to solve.

That's the problem. The majority of people aren't necessarily happy with how things are. But, they're content. The discontent seem to behave like lunatics. There's rarely a coherent movement with a defined goal. Just the pitchforking organizations like EFF and Techdirt, and aggragator blogs like DSLR, creating a circular reference.

Everyone gets stoked up, with nobody proposing solutions, except a tiny few who do the equivalent of pouring gasoline on themselves and lighting up.

Mark

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to amigo_boy

Re: People like TK...

So you answer my question with a question?

Don't answer with another question, don't skirt the issue like a little panzy. Simply answer the question: why was it established to do the things you claim they already had power to do to begin with?


fatness
subtle
Premium,ex-mod 01-13
join:2000-11-17
fishing
kudos:14
reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:

The President abided by the law (18 USC 2511).
192 mentions of that law and still climbing: »/nsearch?q=251 ··· ime&cat=

If anyone wants to go through those links and see some useless circular arguments, they're there.
--
"I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants."