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SUMware
Premium
join:2002-05-21
kudos:2

3 edits

MS to Intel: Drop Linux Dev Envir. Gates Called It A 'Jihad'

[emphasis added]

From Groklaw
January 24 2010 -
quote:
Why Microsoft Suddenly Wanted to Be More Interoperable - Comes v. MS Exh. 7068 Tells Us

Guess why Microsoft suddenly decided it wanted to be more interoperable? It's so it can get customers to quit using Linux and switch to Windows & .NET.

Exhibit 7068 [PDF] in the Comes v. Microsoft antitrust litigation exhibits list tells us what happened with Intel. It is a 4-page email thread with Bill Gates and others at Microsoft all about trying to get Intel to switch from Linux/Unix to Windows for their development environment. Gates calls it a jihad. What stood in the way, according to the email report on what Intel was telling them: "Linux apparently meets over 90% of their current EDA needs." Intel said Linux interoperability was better, they could port code more easily, EDA ISVs "got burnt with poor experiences with Windows NT" and so were "wary of taking steps in this direction".

Remember when Microsoft told us it was interested in greater interoperability with Linux because their customers were demanding it? That part is true, as I'll show you. But the purpose of developing greater interoperability at the request of Intel, according to this exhibit, was so that Microsoft could get Intel to switch its development environment from Linux to Windows. Intel's Paul Otellini had reportedly asked his people to figure out how to do that. But in 1999, Microsoft and Intel had cooperatively done a comparison test project, testing Windows and Linux against each other, and Linux performed better. Way better. And so after identifying 100 or so Microsoft work items, Intel decided to go with Linux. The email thread is about whether Intel could now switch back.

1999. Think about what that means in the SCO v. IBM context, where SCO alleges that it wasn't until IBM got involved in Linux -- years after 1999 -- that Linux suddenly worked well in the enterprise. Seems they are, at best, mistaken.

The email thread begins with a report on a telephone conference with some Intel and Windows folks, to see what could be done to get Intel off of Linux and back on Windows.

By the way, are two monopolies allowed to work together to figure out how to gang up on one of the monopoly's competitors? Just asking.

Trust me, though, you won't find this exhibit on any Microsoft Get the Facts-style websites.

There are so many gems we are finding by transcribing the exhibits in the Comes collection. I thought they were all ancient history, but not at all, particularly on the final page of the collection, page 4. So if you are in the mood to help us with transcribing, that's a great place to start.
More interesting reading here.

munky99999
Munky

join:2004-04-10
canada

What they really want is to become interoperable just enough to get people like intel to switch over. Then soon as they switch over. Interoperability will bitrot.

If microsoft truly wants to win. They will have to become insanely interoperable. Which will take a long time for no direct profit.

On the otherhand; what they could do. Come out with their own linux distro. Call it Micronix. Whose open source apps will be designed to be an open source interoperability mechanism. That way Intel can move to "Micronix". They havent changed in the long run... but they are now using microsoft's products which then have lots of good interoperability designed from the ground up.

That I think will be the big one which will pave the way for the future.



GILXA1226
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join:2000-12-29
Dayton, OH

1 recommendation

reply to SUMware

So, as a linux user I've come to expect shit like this from MS. As an American, however, I do take quite a bit of offence to the whole thing being termed a jihad. Companies going after competitors is one thing and will go on till the end of time. Doing it with that amount of tactlessness is just disturbing, even for Microsoft.
--
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SUMware
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1 edit

said by GILXA1226:

As an American, however, I do take quite a bit of offence to the whole thing being termed a jihad. Doing it with that amount of tactlessness is just disturbing, even for Microsoft.
Gates called it as he saw it. That's where MS is coming from. Was it ever true that tactfulness=Microsoft?


Steve
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Nobody has ever accused Bill Gates of being tactful. Being so much smarter than everybody else — and he really is — often comes with deficits in other things, such as the ability to engage in ordinary human interactions.

Microsoft wants to spread their product around, which is ordinary and obvious, and they wanted to find out what it would take. Better support from the electronic design vendors was very high on the list, and that's mostly out of Intel's hand.

One thoughtful person on the MSFT side pointed out that the EDM world was not really all that big, and that other line-of-biz applications were way more impactful.

Attempting to persuade somebody to use your product should not be a crime - I didn't see anything even hinting at dirty tricks in this attempt at persuasion (but of course am always open to evidence).

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site


munky99999
Munky

join:2004-04-10
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reply to GILXA1226

said by GILXA1226:

So, as a linux user I've come to expect shit like this from MS. As an American, however, I do take quite a bit of offence to the whole thing being termed a jihad. Companies going after competitors is one thing and will go on till the end of time. Doing it with that amount of tactlessness is just disturbing, even for Microsoft.
Because being an american gives you the right to be offended about jihad and any other nationality is exempt?

Plus it's without a doubt just a joke. Im sure at some point... in just about any workplace... there has been a "jihad" joke.

The thing that gets me is that it's gates who said it. Even ex-leaders of big companies should be totally serious all the time.

Even then... it's hardly an issue.

SUMware
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1 edit

1 recommendation

dupe post


SUMware
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2 recommendations

reply to Steve

Gosh, Steve. I was expecting a response from you something more along the lines of "If you criticize Microsoft, you're supporting the terrorists."

dave
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reply to Steve

One could interpret MS leaning on Intel like this: "Hey, Intel, don't forget who's helping you sell so much product; so how about using our product a little more?".

The push-back from the devs seems to have a large amount of "but what we are already using works fine, so why should we change?" -- a position I respect regardless of which side of the divide one is currently on.



Maxo
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reply to Steve

I'm with you on this Steve See Profile. I didn't go through the link and read everything, but I don't really see an issue in what was posted in this thread.
I think it's a good thing when a vendor recognizes a potential customer isn't using their product because a competing product does something better, and then goes off and works at making their product better in the ways it is failing.
If there is some evidence that MS is doing something, like sending out updates that break Intel products as a response, then there would certainly be cause for alarm.
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munky99999
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join:2004-04-10
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reply to Steve

said by Steve:

Attempting to persuade somebody to use your product should not be a crime - I didn't see anything even hinting at dirty tricks in this attempt at persuasion (but of course am always open to evidence).

Steve
I agree. Companies ought to do whatever they can in order to gain the maximum amount of customers.

As for dirty tricks. The first post clearly indicates that intel has been burnt; and would have been burnt MANY times if they stayed windows.

Intel said Linux interoperability was better, they could port code more easily, EDA ISVs "got burnt with poor experiences with Windows NT" and so were "wary of taking steps in this direction".

Try to have a backup domain controller in a 2008 AD forest.
Try to run the latest version of BIND and be a secondary master for server 2008 dns.
Try to go 80/20 dhcp between dhcp3 and server 2008's dhcp.
Try to do any sort of comingle like NFS services and have a : in the name of a file; or have no file extensions.
Try to mix windows into the kerberos/nis authentication world.

Sorry but windows has been trying to do this "interoperability" for awhile now and failing miserably. They basically stepped forward by 1 year every 2 years... then stopped in 2004.

It's the small steps here and there. Just enough to say "we are working toward becoming interoperable with nix. Then when their target finally joins them. They quit.

dave
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said by munky99999:

Try to do any sort of comingle like NFS services and have a : in the name of a file; or have no file extensions.
That's almost as much fun as trying to store a file with named streams on a Samba server.

munky99999
Munky

join:2004-04-10
canada
reply to dave

said by dave:

One could interpret MS leaning on Intel like this: "Hey, Intel, don't forget who's helping you sell so much product; so how about using our product a little more?".

The push-back from the devs seems to have a large amount of "but what we are already using works fine, so why should we change?" -- a position I respect regardless of which side of the divide one is currently on.
No they are coming back saying. "Linux is far better. Your stuff has been very bad for us in the past. Your current design hasnt changed. You have a very very long way to go before you get any interest from us."

SUMware
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reply to SUMware

Click for full size
[emphasis added]

Amusing.

PS: Don't see anywhere where anyone stated that this was illegal. It's merely American capitalism.

munky99999
Munky

join:2004-04-10
canada
reply to dave

said by dave:

said by munky99999:

Try to do any sort of comingle like NFS services and have a : in the name of a file; or have no file extensions.
That's almost as much fun as trying to store a file with named streams on a Samba server.
That has been supported for like 2 years?

So you're comparing something that doesnt work at all. To something that has for years? Someone needs to get with the times.

munky99999
Munky

join:2004-04-10
canada
reply to SUMware

said by SUMware:

[emphasis added]

Amusing.

PS: Don't see anywhere where anyone stated that this was illegal. It's merely American capitalism.
It's a saying from my experience?

It's a crime to let that cake go to waste. nomnomnomnom

It's not really a crime.

Though the saying is pretty misplaced. Considering linux is superior to windows.

SUMware
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1 edit

My above post was not a criticism nor a comment directed at you. Just a generic thread post to OP.

Expand your moderator at work


GILXA1226
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join:2000-12-29
Dayton, OH
reply to munky99999

Re: MS to Intel: Drop Linux Dev Envir. Gates Called It A 'Jihad'

said by munky99999:

said by GILXA1226:

So, as a linux user I've come to expect shit like this from MS. As an American, however, I do take quite a bit of offence to the whole thing being termed a jihad. Companies going after competitors is one thing and will go on till the end of time. Doing it with that amount of tactlessness is just disturbing, even for Microsoft.
Because being an american gives you the right to be offended about jihad and any other nationality is exempt?

Plus it's without a doubt just a joke. Im sure at some point... in just about any workplace... there has been a "jihad" joke.

The thing that gets me is that it's gates who said it. Even ex-leaders of big companies should be totally serious all the time.

Even then... it's hardly an issue.
Never said any other nationality is exempt. I just find it tasteless.
--
We don't give a d@mn for the whole state of Michigan... we're from OHIO! O!H! ... I!O!

equivocal

join:2008-01-23
USA
reply to SUMware

Shocked! Shocked, I say!

Last I knew Intel was firmly entrenched on Windows, NT at that time. Running Linux was a clandestine affair which required disguising a PC as a file cabinet.

WRT "jihad"...look at the dates on these messages. The wreckage from a real jihad with real fatalities was literally still smoldering. Bill might as well have joked about crashing planes into Intel HQ. (Hell, maybe he did...haven't read all the messages.)



Maxo
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said by equivocal:

WRT "jihad"...look at the dates on these messages. The wreckage from a real jihad with real fatalities was literally still smoldering. Bill might as well have joked about crashing planes into Intel HQ. (Hell, maybe he did...haven't read all the messages.)
Many Americans were first introduced to the word "jihad" shortly after 9/11, giving them a false impression as to its meaning. Bill probably already knew what it meant, as well as his associates, and didn't feel uncomfortable using the word amongst peers.
There's a very real difference in the language we use in public statements and what we use in settings we assume to be private, including work e-mail.
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SUMware
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1 edit

said by Maxo:

There's a very real difference in the language we use in public statements and what we use in settings we assume to be private, including work e-mail.
It appears that Billy G., 'smart' as he was, did not realize that work emails are not so private, and can easily be transformed into public statements.


Maxo
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said by SUMware:

said by Maxo:

There's a very real difference in the language we use in public statements and what we use in settings we assume to be private, including work e-mail.
It appears that Billy G., 'smart' as he was, did not realize that work emails are not so private, and can easily be transformed into public statements.
We all make dumb mistakes. My e-mail is state e-mail, and as such is subject to being acquired through any Florida citizen's request for it. However I've seen some smart people say some dumb things in e-mail knowing anyone could potentially retrieve the e-mail.
I'd imagine that in the private industry there is probably an even greater (false) sense that the e-mail is unlikely to leave the confines of the corporation. I think all of us have the tendency to become lax and forgetful from time-to-time.
My main point was only that Bill's audience was known coworkers, not the general American audience.
--
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SUMware
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said by Maxo:

said by SUMware:

said by Maxo:

There's a very real difference in the language we use in public statements and what we use in settings we assume to be private, including work e-mail.
It appears that Billy G., 'smart' as he was, did not realize that work emails are not so private, and can easily be transformed into public statements.
We all make dumb mistakes.

My main point was only that Bill's audience was known coworkers, not the general American audience.
I understand and agree.

However, it is very apparent that unencrypted emails, whatever the source/destination, are not private and could possibly end up being used as legal documents. Particularly in a corporate environment.


Steve
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said by SUMware:

However, it is very apparent that unencrypted emails, whatever the source/destination, are not private and could possibly end up being used as legal documents.
I don't believe that encryption would have helped here: if a subpoena duces tecum demands all your emails, you have to provide them. If they're crypted, you have to uncrypt them.


Maxo
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reply to SUMware

I wasn't arguing that Bill should have expected complete privacy in the e-mail. I was just stating that not too much should be made about his use of the word Jihad, even shortly after 9/11, in an e-mail that was not meant for the public. There is nothing negative about the word jihad, and there's nothing extraordinary about the context in which he used it.


SUMware
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1 edit

said by Maxo:

I was just stating that not too much should be made about his use of the word Jihad, even shortly after 9/11, in an e-mail that was not meant for the public.
Not arguing with you. My question is if Gates, as head of a major competitive corporation, knew that his email would become public, would he have used that specific word? I think not. There are numerous other potentially less controversial 'synonyms'.

In the scheme of things it is merely a small detail that contributes to a larger picture.


EUS
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reply to SUMware

I feel that if we run our lives fearing every little thing we say, write, or think will come back to haunt us, we are doomed to never amount to much.


SUMware
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4 edits

said by EUS:

I feel that if we run our lives fearing every little thing we say, write, or think will come back to haunt us, we are doomed to never amount to much.
We're discussing Bill Gates.

A very visible head of a public corporation that is constantly involved in litigation, public relations, promoting consumer and pro products. Tact, thoughtfulness, awareness and CYA would be rational SOPs that corporate attorneys would advise someone in his position, including when generating archived communications in an official capacity.

We're not discussing everyone else.

Here's another example: »Bill Gates Says Web Censorship in China Not a Problem


EUS
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It's not just about Bill gates, there are common trends occurring where people's lives are put under a microscope for varying reasons.