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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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join:2009-06-17

2 edits

MaynardKrebs to El Quintron

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to El Quintron

Re: ADSL-CO/2009-261 Case update....

said by El Quintron:

There are still other options... for one, wireless as demonstrated by Skynet in Montreal and that new start up in Ottawa whose name escapes me...

Even if this a short term investment whose only purpose is to drain revenues away from copper we'd still be ahead.

So assuming the "Cable Gamble" fails... there's still wireless which is cheap fast and dirty... it can easily be deployed in rural areas and has *much* better speeds than we're currently getting with ADSL1 and the GAS tariff.

I don't know how it would pan out in places like Toronto but assuming you no longer have to pay x$ per customer to Bell for GAS or Rogers for TPIA then its straight profit for you and assuming you maintain you current buget...

(ok maybe some extra hookers and cocaine for New Years but that's it! )

It would be straight profit you could dump into infrastructure. Either more cash for wireless licenses in Urban areas or whatever, imagination's the limit when you have double (or triple) the cash to play with.
Do you think that you'd really be able to afford wireless licenses ahead of the likes of Rogers? Look at the spectrum auction that got Wind started....Rogers paid a huge premium for what it bought, and all the incumbents would do so again to forestall competition - if they could get away with it.

As to wireless, the downstream is ok speed-wise but are you really going to service 250,000 customers with one and still have good uplink speeds/capacity? there's also a ton of latency in wireless, which makes it problematic for voip, gaming, and anything which needs some sort of deterministic reasonable millisecond response times.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

1 edit

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

Do you think that you'd really be able to afford wireless licenses ahead of the likes of Rogers?
Wrong spectrum...

You're thinking of Cellphone licenses... not internet.

If you're selling internet on a wifi type spectrum the actual license fees are in the low five figures.

(less than 30k depending on pop. dens.)

So you'd be ahead of the biggies in rural areas and then be able to dump a bunch of money into building non-wireless infrastructure in Dense Urban Areas. or whatever your plan was.

There would be logistical headaches in dealing with different tech but the financial outlay for 100% non-Bell/Rogers infrastructure would be minimal.
shepd
join:2004-01-17
Kitchener, ON

shepd to Ignite

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to Ignite
said by Ignite:

orry but the cost of VPS, etc, is not comparable to the cost of broadband internet services.

The most expensive part of the services for an ISP is always, by far, getting the customer to the core network the rest is relatively cheap.
Please, excuse my ignorance, but it seems to me that once the cable to my home from the ISP is laid, the costs for that section of cable (not the internet itself) are fixed, aren't they? I mean, I know my telephone line doesn't break more often because I make more calls, I'm assuming my internet cable won't either.

And, if those fixed costs are more than $22/month, how is Bell making money on GAS, since that's the maximum it charges a wholesaler for the exact same thing: A line from the ISP to a home.

Obviously, the costs for the bandwidth to the ISP from the internet shouldn't change based on whether it is hitting an ERX or a VPS. So the only thing I can see that should increase the cost is the link between the ISP and my home.

But again, I'm not an ISP, I'm just interested in knowing how that works.

JunjiHiroma
Live Free Or Die
join:2008-03-18
Renfrew, ON

JunjiHiroma to El Quintron

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to El Quintron
said by El Quintron:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Here's how this all plays out....

1) For the remainder of 2010 the CRTC receives submissions, asks more questions, hears oral testimony, asks for clarification, then does what it does best - sits on things with its thumb up its butt for another 6 months before it issues ruling/opinion. So now we're up to the end of 2010.

2) Mean while Bell still stonewalls and refuses matching speeds, CO-ADSL, and anything else its malevolent managers & employees dream up to be the next impediment.

3) Bell appeals to Cabinet yet again if the CRTC rules against them - add another 4 months.

4) Maybe the CRTC gets some brass ones and takes Bell to federal Court to enforce its ruling.

5) Bell offers more services on the further rolled-out NGN, and maybe even drops its pricing a little for the 1st year of a 2-year contract.

6) Federal Court takes its time, but maybe 8 months later rules against Bell. Now we're at the end of 2011.

7) Bell appeals to the Supreme Court....and the court rules against Bell by the end of 2012.

8) There are no independent ISP's left because they've gone broke.

Welcome to competition in Canada.
There are still other options... for one, wireless as demonstrated by Skynet in Montreal and that new start up in Ottawa whose name escapes me...

Even if this a short term investment whose only purpose is to drain revenues away from copper we'd still be ahead.

So assuming the "Cable Gamble" fails... there's still wireless which is cheap fast and dirty... it can easily be deployed in rural areas and has *much* better speeds than we're currently getting with ADSL1 and the GAS tariff.

I don't know how it would pan out in places like Toronto but assuming you no longer have to pay x$ per customer to Bell for GAS or Rogers for TPIA then its straight profit for you and assuming you maintain you current buget...

(ok maybe some extra hookers and cocaine for New Years but that's it! )

It would be straight profit you could dump into infrastructure. Either more cash for wireless licenses in Urban areas or whatever, imagination's the limit when you have double (or triple) the cash to play with.
To back up the Wireless stuff:
»www.pewinternet.org/PPF/ ··· play.asp

"Here are the key findings on the survey of experts by the Pew Internet & American Life Project that asked respondents to assess predictions about technology and its roles in the year 2020:
# The mobile device will be the primary connection tool to the internet for most people in the world in 2020.
# The transparency of people and organizations will increase, but that will not necessarily yield more personal integrity, social tolerance, or forgiveness.
# Voice recognition and touch user-interfaces with the internet will be more prevalent and accepted by 2020.
# Those working to enforce intellectual property law and copyright protection will remain in a continuing arms race, with the crackers who will find ways to copy and share content without payment.
# The divisions between personal time and work time and between physical and virtual reality will be further erased for everyone who is connected, and the results will be mixed in their impact on basic social relations.
# Next-generation engineering of the network to improve the current internet architecture is more likely than an effort to rebuild the architecture from scratch."

BACONATOR26
Premium Member
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON

BACONATOR26

Premium Member

Keep in mind, all of the licensed bands for wireless are already in use (at least for WiMax), in most cases it would have to be unlicensed and I have not yet seen a provider committed to national service. SkyNet is great but is greatly reduced to commercial service and limited residential, add to the fact that they are only servicing select areas.
static416
join:2007-01-26
Toronto, ON

static416 to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

Execulink.....
11. Execulink agrees with the Commission’s assessment that there are
insufficient wholesale alternatives and supports the classification of
CO based DSL as conditional essential. However, Execulink notes
that Bell has refused to provide CO based DSL even though it is a
tariffed service which has resulted in further reduced wholesale
alternatives and none that are conditional essential.


Here's how this all plays out....

1) For the remainder of 2010 the CRTC receives submissions, asks more questions, hears oral testimony, asks for clarification, then does what it does best - sits on things with its thumb up its butt for another 6 months before it issues ruling/opinion. So now we're up to the end of 2010.

2) Mean while Bell still stonewalls and refuses matching speeds, CO-ADSL, and anything else its malevolent managers & employees dream up to be the next impediment.

3) Bell appeals to Cabinet yet again if the CRTC rules against them - add another 4 months.

4) Maybe the CRTC gets some brass ones and takes Bell to federal Court to enforce its ruling.

5) Bell offers more services on the further rolled-out NGN, and maybe even drops its pricing a little for the 1st year of a 2-year contract.

6) Federal Court takes its time, but maybe 8 months later rules against Bell. Now we're at the end of 2011.

7) Bell appeals to the Supreme Court....and the court rules against Bell by the end of 2012.

8) There are no independent ISP's left because they've gone broke.

Welcome to competition in Canada.
Given this level of cynacism I'll ask for general opinions then. Should I dump my 25mbit Rogers and come back to TSI for MLPPP?

Rogers throttling is becoming crippling. I don't bittorrent much, but if it's active at all the DPI kicks in and slows all my traffic down to almost nothing, http included. So either I bittorrent, or I use the computer, never both at the same time. And the prospect of a $50 overage fee for going over my cap is frightening.

The only thing preventing me from returning to TSI is all this uncertainty around UBB/ADSL-CO. When is this going to be decided one way or the other?

I don't want to buy a new router, two modems, get a second line and switch back to TSI only to have MLPPP be wiped out by UBB or made irrelevant by TSI cable.

So wait? Or jump over? Is this stuff going to be decided within a year?

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
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join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron to BACONATOR26

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to BACONATOR26
There are still licenses available...

I was speaking to an independant provider recently, and Industry Canada is advised him that he could still get licensed for the entrie city of Toronto at minimal cost.

I don't think the spectrum in question was WiMax, but it's still completely feasible. Also as I previously stated, you can charge the same for higher speed with zero dollars going to an incumbent.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to shepd

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to shepd
said by shepd:

Please, excuse my ignorance, but it seems to me that once the cable to my home from the ISP is laid, the costs for that section of cable (not the internet itself) are fixed, aren't they? I mean, I know my telephone line doesn't break more often because I make more calls, I'm assuming my internet cable won't either.
More phone calls from the subscriber pool within a given area means the telco needs to deploy larger telephony switching gear. More data going over coax means the cableco needs to open up more data-carrying channels. More data on xDSL means the telco needs faster aggregation links and switches. More cars on the road means more/larger highways. More water demand means the town has to put in bigger pipes to reduce pressure loss. Etc.

The costs for your specific home may be relatively constant but upstream costs from increased aggregate usage still do go up.
said by shepd:

And, if those fixed costs are more than $22/month, how is Bell making money on GAS, since that's the maximum it charges a wholesaler for the exact same thing: A line from the ISP to a home.
In case you haven't noticed, Bell has been trying to get that price bumped up from $20.50 to $45 for over a year... a $2 increase from a base rate bump and another $22.50 from the UBB cap on heavy users.

El Quintron
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join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by InvalidError:

In case you haven't noticed, Bell has been trying to get that price bumped up from $20.50 to $45 for over a year... a $2 increase from a base rate bump and another $22.50 from the UBB cap on heavy users.
I really don't see how that's relevant to this discussion, Bell is making money on GAS and the pricing needs to be regulated as they are the only game in town.

All that needs to happen is that their efforts to increase pricing get stalled for long enough so that wholesale can start providing access from different sources.

They won't be pushing for increased prices much longer after that, as they'll start losing revenue from wholesale bleeding off to other backbones.

ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP
join:2004-03-07
Canada

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My Robbers is disconnected for the time being. I'll manage other ways My brother still pays >250.00 month for Robbers' services; hell, that's more than double car insurance!

El Quintron
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join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron to JGROCKY

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to JGROCKY
Rocky considers how much attention this thread got and how many responses got posted so quickly, I was wondering if you would be open to raising funds by starting your own religion or something.

Although I'm sworn atheist, I figure the amount of attention this garnered, would make you an ideal candidate for raising funds amongst internet users.

Rocky Tilton Archbishop of the Holy Canadian Interwebs?

MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

1 edit

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by El Quintron:

Rocky considers how much attention this thread got and how many responses got posted so quickly, I was wondering if you would be open to raising funds by starting your own religion or something.

Although I'm sworn atheist, I figure the amount of attention this garnered, would make you an ideal candidate for raising funds amongst internet users.

Rocky Tilton Archbishop of the Holy Canadian Interwebs?


I'm thinking more like Arthur, King of the Britons....

[King Rocky]: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Rocky, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.

[Dennis (interrupting)]: Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of internet access and net neutrality. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

JGROCKY
Premium Member
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON

JGROCKY

Premium Member

LMAO... .you two are messed up! hehehehe.... Too much thought not enough Rum!

BACONATOR26
Premium Member
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON

BACONATOR26 to JGROCKY

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Messed up? Me thinks these two are bandwidth hungry. Honestly, a TSI religion? That's just going a little too far on the creepy fan meter.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by BACONATOR26:

TSI religion? That's just going a little too far on the creepy fan meter.
You missed the Key reference in my joke... look up "Robert Tilton" on youtube... there's hours of entertainment.