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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Consider the Converse

While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false:


Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.


If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

said by pnh102:

While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false:


Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.


If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information.
This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

said by MightyPez:

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?
No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

What data are you using to prove that?



pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

said by MightyPez:

What data are you using to prove that?
I present the admittedly anecdotal evidence in my original post.

There are clearly more people who have broadband today than there were in the late 1990s. Since the late 1990s, we've had 2 recessions which have resulted in major job losses. But during both of these recessions, broadband deployments have continued. The jobs did not come back until the economy made a full recovery, which had little if anything to do with broadband deployment.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs? Perhaps more jobs *were* created in the broadband industry. That would stand to reason, anyway. More central offices, nodes, help desk personnel, etc.

Are people claiming greater broadband deployment is suppose to raise job levels as a whole?



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5

reply to pnh102

said by pnh102:

said by MightyPez:

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?
No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth.
There are construction costs, that's causal. But after that, there are the after-effects. In an area that has broadband, tech jobs can live and tech-enabled businesses can get advantage. The area is more attractive to live and work in, thus there is an economic advantage over those areas without broadband. Two-thirds of Americans subscribe to broadband, and it's now a huge incentive next to "good schools" and "low taxes."

Work and life is easier with the Internet. It's crazy to think that doesn't translate into jobs.

Headlines:
US House Blocks Internet Taxes for 4 More Years, as Private Studies Prove Web Commerce Driving US Economy »www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_p···testnews
More Internet Equals More Jobs: Reviving the Economy with Broadband »www.thewip.net/contributors/2009···obs.html

And the guys that came up with that statistic that one percent of additional deployment creates 300,000 jobs, recently said this:
We last examined the economic impact of broadband on the economy and on employment in 2001 and 2003. As it turns out, many of our previous predictions were too pessimistic. We underestimated the growth of broadband -- its reach, the applications that it made possible, and the reductions in price of access in the first decade of the 21st century. The increasing availability, improved speed, and lower price of high-speed Internet services that has resulted from the continuing massive investment in broadband infrastructure has had a predictable effect on household subscriptions. The Pew organization’s household surveys show that the share of households subscribing to broadband Internet services has risen from 47 percent in 2007 to nearly 65 percent at the end of 2009, substantially above our 2003 estimate.

The indirect benefits of broadband are perhaps even more significant: Smart young programmers creating new “apps” for smartphones; academic institutions utilizing ever faster broadband to enhance the educational experience; health care personnel being able to deliver world-class medical services to underserved regions domestically and globally; and, businesses being able to order, manufacture, market and distribute their products from anywhere to anywhere. We could not have anticipated many of these developments in 2003; we surely cannot foresee all of the benefits of continuing improvements in broadband services that will occur in the next few years as network companies continue to upgrade their infrastructure.
(and these guys aren't necessarily friendly to some of the line-sharing or structural separation ideas that some NN-folk like, but they recognize that broadband means jobs.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

reply to pnh102
Ouch pnh. Looks like mightypez just burned you.



pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

reply to MightyPez

said by MightyPez:

Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs?
I did not claim this. I claimed that the notion that broadband deployment leads to more jobs is false.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

But you're not saying how. You are saying overall jobs are being lost, but that doesn't mean jobs weren't created.


MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

reply to sonicmerlin
I'm not trying to cause a problem. I'm not an industry insider and have about as much economics training as it takes to invest in a company fund, but saying jobs were lost in the recession so we shouldn't deploy broadband is making my head spin.



pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

reply to MightyPez

said by MightyPez:

You are saying overall jobs are being lost, but that doesn't mean jobs weren't created.
I am?

All I am claiming is that there is no relationship between the two items.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

said by pnh102:

If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today.
This is what you said. Reading it just says "Jobs were lost in the recession, so deploying broadband doesn't create jobs. You qualified it in no way. I have no idea what you are trying to say because it's a broad and non-descript thing to say. Especially when looking at Funchords data saying jobs were indeed created.

Desdinova
Premium
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD

reply to MightyPez
What I get from pnh's statement is that he's using the statement as an example of the difference between corellation and causation, something many folks confuse.



Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:30
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

reply to MightyPez
Again, you know, if people want to make points one way or the other they can introduce actual science....

This country allows the guy who yells louder to dictate what the reality is for some reason. The data is the data. I imagine in some instances there are deployment projects that result in job creation. I imagine in other instances there are deployment projects that wind up being money black holes...


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