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| | Re: Get used to it. said by fAcEtIOUs:said by Logan 5:Because, until AT&T decides to spend the necessary $$$ to upgrade their problematic 3G service, problems like this will only continue to occur with more regularity and frequency. You'd think that AT&T would learn from the mistakes/sins of their past.... Apparently not. Oh, get real. A 100,000 people all in 1 spot are not all going to get service - no matter who the provider is. And AT&T upgrade plans have nothing to do with these special events. Special events have to make SPECIAL arrangements well in advance with all the cell companies for coverage. And that involves the events coordinators being the impetus and also covering the costs of providing special coverage - like adding mobile cell towers. That's strange, because I've never experienced any problems in Japan, whether in Tokyo or Nagasaki. No matter what event occurs, things work fine. And people here have been using their 3G connections as their primarily internet lines, for video, audio, etc. for a lot longer than in the US. | |
|   MysticGogetaThe Robot DevilPremium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX | Re: Get used to it. That's because they build their network to handle it. We wouldn't want to do that in the states because upgrades cost money and stock holders don't like that.
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| | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Get used to it. Re-read what MMH said becuase it's the truth.
enough said. | |
| | |  Logan 5Enjoying the CataclysmPremium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
Austin, TX
kudos:7
 ·Comcast
| Re: Get used to it. said by fiberguy:Re-read what MMH said becuase it's the truth. enough said. lol... so you *really* expect people to believe that an 'at-best' mediocre 3G infrastructure can be adequate or more then adequate at a special event by merely planing for it in advance??? LMFAO 
It's a known fact that AT&T's 3G & 2G networks are and were problematic LONG BEFORE the advent of the iPhone/iPad so it's not accurate to say that "Oh n0s, it's NOT AT&T's fault.... blame the greedy users who wants to use all da interwebz for the videoz and emailz"....
said by MMH :
Special events have to make SPECIAL arrangements well in advance with all the cell companies for coverage. And that involves the events coordinators being the impetus and also covering the costs of providing special coverage - like adding mobile cell towers.
Saying this is like saying that unless a woman plans on being raped and covers the cost of the necessary precautions to prevent that from happening, it's her fault if it happens....
Gee... talk about blaming the victim (the people who can't get past the overloaded 3G service) for the poor choices made by the attacker (AT&T's shortsighted infrastructure planning).... | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Get used to it. Well, since you don't seem to be able to hold a .... NM
Anyway..
Why in the world do you think that some special event becomes the problem of AT&T? I could care less about that phone company - at all. However, I don't play fan boy and anti-corp boy like so many of you all here do. I play "keeping it real" boy if you wanna know.
And, tell me, why is it EXACTLY AT&T's fault their network couldn't handle an event with that many people? Every network is supposed to build their network based on predicted use. Is it normal for that area to have THAT many people at one time in that area using their network at the same time? If Yes, then it's AT&Ts fault.. if no, then that's life.
I'm sorry, but you're TOTALLY out of line here. If that network in that area was typical of handling, say, 500 users at one time and all the sudden 2000 people show up wanting to use it and it's not normal.. I'm sorry, but I can't fault AT&T for that..
You also made a very major mistake.. it has nothing to do with 2G or 3G.. it simply has to do with "coverage" and more importantly, "capacity".. I think you forgot about that. I don't think it's reasonable for any network to way overbuild capacity when it's not needed. If this was a special event that took place and it's not common, then you can't blame AT&T for this - AT ALL.
I suppose in other parts of the country when natural disasters happen and land line service goes down rushing everyone to their cellular phones and the network can't handle it, I assume it's the carrier's fault too?
EVERYTHING has a limit.. this time, it was pushed. You, like many, think that every small little detail is supposed to be figured out in advance and known. Personally, I chalk this up to a learning lesson and they can look at this area moving forward. I'm also sure that the event planner, next time, will be sure to ask all guests, in advance, who their cellular carriers are so they can alert the networks. Also, I'm sure they'll need to ask blood type in case there is a disaster and they need to have plenty of that available in the area.. I'm sure they'll take food and beer orders as not to run out of one, or over stock on the other.. I mean, get real.
There is no "blaming the victim" here, except for you. Notice how you went there and not me?
And in your last Quote of MMH, and as the story notes here, they could very well have planned for this in advance with mobile cell towers.. that would be the same thing that was used at a few presidential rallies for McCain. So um, yea, the event planner did have a lot to do with bringing a lot of people together in an area and not ensuring that they should have let carriers know.. and to be honest, I'd not even really blame THEM becuase this is still probably an unknown and over looked.. I'm guessing that in the future things like this MAY be addressed.
but blaming AT&T.. sorry.. you can't really blame them for what they don't know. | |
| | | | | Logan 5Enjoying the CataclysmPremium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
Austin, TX
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| Re: Get used to it. Hey fiberguy  you can be an AT&T Apologist all you like, and you can spin the state of their infrastructure any way you like, but at the end of the day, it's been demonstrated over and over and over again that the other major telco players just DO NOT have the issues that AT&T has had, currently has, and will continue to have with their wireless infrastructure until they get their corporate heads out of their shareholders asses and address the issues that are preventing them from being a truly world class provider of wireless voice and data services..
All the Wilson's in the world can't change the facts or make that happen....
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| | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Get used to it. lol - you have NO idea how much I actually hate, no, despise AT&T as a company. Apologist? Hardly.. read my other posts.. there's something called "keeping it real" ... and I'm doing that. However, as you sit here, you don't realize that you're assuming a lot as well and aren't 100% right - in the least.
First off, "at&t" as you call it, isn't a world class service. This is SBC under a "name" that everyone still thinks exists. AT&T as we know it today is hardly a world class service.. they're a spin off baby bell that bought up a failing corporation/parent and sits behind a name and nothing more.
Second, you're obviously not looking at the challenges of a GSM 3G network vs CDMA. Do you realize the cost difference and return on a 3G network vs CDMA? I'm NO WHERE NEAR apologizing for att one single bit! Their "entire network" is not in question in this specific topic today. This post was talking about a specific area that was impacted by an even with a large gathering AND Karl even spoke of the mobile towers.. did he not?
I don't expect AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, or Tmobile.. even MetroPCS to be able to handle a flood of network usage when you have a large gathering in an area.. you failed to mention or acknowledge that you don't even know if AT&T was infact notified of this.. much less any other carrier. We don't know the make up of the people in attendance and who all what kind kinda phones.. for all we know, an overwhelming majority of people could have been att. In the end, it doesn't matter. The network clearly couldn't handle that influx of people, however, I wouldn't expect it to either. Just like I'd not expect it, or any other network that has failed in the past in similar situations, to handle the influx of people using the network.
What's failed to be mentioned here is that yes, other networks have cracked under strain before - at&t in this incident is just one of many. News flash, too, even wire-line services can crack, and do, under heavy use. Why do you think in the case of an emergency, people are asked not to use their phone unless its an emergency?
Everything has a limit, no matter how well planned, unless it's over built, or built one to one. last I checked, no network is.
But, somehow, you're talking about an entire network when this article is taking about an event location that cracked. | |
| | | | | |  SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2
 ·Verizon Online DSL
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| said by Logan 5:Hey fiberguy you can be an AT&T Apologist all you like, and you can spin the state of their infrastructure any way you like, but at the end of the day, it's been demonstrated over and over and over again that the other major telco players just DO NOT have the issues that AT&T has had, currently has, and will continue to have with their wireless infrastructure until they get their corporate heads out of their shareholders asses and address the issues that are preventing them from being a truly world class provider of wireless voice and data services.. All the Wilson's in the world can't change the facts or make that happen.... The dissatisfied scream loud, especially Apple fanbois LOL. But seriously, there are just as many of us that have no issues. That aside, I'm with fiberguy on this one. Would you expect your cable provider to handle a 1 day influx of 500 subscribers on your block even without splitting a node, etc? I think not. Things are built for expected use and this was way out of the range of expected use. Tens of thousands of users out of the normal range. Those who expect AT&T to keep track of every privately sponsored event in every area so they can wheel in the CoWs must be on crack or just not know how the technology works. There is not even enough spectrum to support that many GSM users without CoWs. Can AT&T do anything right by you guys and still be run by humans?
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| | | | | | |  AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ | Re: Get used to it. said by Selenia:said by Logan 5:Hey fiberguy you can be an AT&T Apologist all you like, and you can spin the state of their infrastructure any way you like, but at the end of the day, it's been demonstrated over and over and over again that the other major telco players just DO NOT have the issues that AT&T has had, currently has, and will continue to have with their wireless infrastructure until they get their corporate heads out of their shareholders asses and address the issues that are preventing them from being a truly world class provider of wireless voice and data services.. All the Wilson's in the world can't change the facts or make that happen.... The dissatisfied scream loud, especially Apple fanbois LOL. But seriously, there are just as many of us that have no issues. That aside, I'm with fiberguy on this one. Would you expect your cable provider to handle a 1 day influx of 500 subscribers on your block even without splitting a node, etc? I think not. Things are built for expected use and this was way out of the range of expected use. Tens of thousands of users out of the normal range. Those who expect AT&T to keep track of every privately sponsored event in every area so they can wheel in the CoWs must be on crack or just not know how the technology works. There is not even enough spectrum to support that many GSM users without CoWs. Can AT&T do anything right by you guys and still be run by humans? There is a difference between providing fixed wire service and providing mobile services. You are comparing apples and steel bridges.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ | Re: Get used to it. said by Selenia:You're right. Wireline is typically stable supporting more connections than current generation wireless technology. Thanks for validating my point even further. Not to mention radio waves don't deliver as even of service quality as do wires(provided there are no bad cables). Comparing mobile service to wired is invalid. That is my point. Please don't twist my words into your astroturf.
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| | | | | | | | | | SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·AT&T Wireless Br..
·Verizon Wireless..
| Re: Get used to it. said by AVD:said by Selenia:You're right. Wireline is typically stable supporting more connections than current generation wireless technology. Thanks for validating my point even further. Not to mention radio waves don't deliver as even of service quality as do wires(provided there are no bad cables). Comparing mobile service to wired is invalid. That is my point. Please don't twist my words into your astroturf. It seems any opinion that disagrees with yours(and a few others) in this thread is astroturf( fiberguy seems to be getting these baseless accusations, as well). You seem to be the one twisting the point. The fact remains that tens of thousands of extra users came online to a small cluster of the network, which of course it would struggle with to noone's fault. How does your silly nitpicking change that?
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| | | | | | | | | | Logan 5Enjoying the CataclysmPremium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
Austin, TX
kudos:7 Reviews:
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| Re: Get used to it. said by Selenia:The fact remains that tens of thousands of extra users came online to a small cluster of the network, which of course it would struggle with to noone's fault. How does your silly nitpicking change that? The problem here is that your thinking is too narrow, you are not looking at the bigger picture.
These types of short term high capacity 'events' are and will happen more and more frequently across AT&T's ENTIRE wireless footprint, not just in Austin, Tx for SxSW or in Coachella, Ca.
Want proof??? Just google iPhone Wireless coverage and you'll see page after page about entire cities like San Francisco, New York, etc.. STILL having data and call quality issues even AFTER AT&T has said repeatedly that they have improved service in those areas by adding more capacity.
If AT&T doesn't have the capacity to adequately meet the demands of users in large urban cities, (forget about special events for a moment), what are they going to do when phone, data, video streaming, text, chat, social networking, etc... ALL converge in to one handheld device?
Oh wait, I must be confusing AT&T with Verizon because while VZ is by no means perfect, they do seem to have a far better idea of how to integrate all of the above and maintain the necessary back-end capacity to keep it all running reasonably smoothly.
EVERY carrier has it's issues, maybe AT&T does a bad job of hiding theirs while everyone else does a good job of hiding theirs I dunno, but in an industry where image can mean the difference between success and failure in both the eyes of the shareholders and the public, AT&T doesn't do either any favors when there's a fairly consistent flow of critical story after negative story after bad story about their problematic voice and data services..
As long as shareholders control the direction a company moves in and the decisions it makes to appease them and keep them satisfied, dressing up the pig will only go so far.... | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | baseless?
every post I read from fiberguy is another defense of a big biz. doesn't matter which or what as long as its a giant multinational company. the bigger the better! I know as soon as I encounter a thread involving a giant company fiberguy will be in it arguing that such and such big biz should just be let to have their way with whatever is in question.
so of course people wonder Selenia. it's natural to wonder when it seems some folks do more arguing for big biz than they do individual Joe on the street citizens. | |
| | | | | | | | | | SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2 Reviews:
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·Verizon Wireless..
| Re: Get used to it. You can dig up many threads from my post history where I'm assaulting a big business, when they deserve it. So even if fiberguy has a reputation for that, it doesn't mean he's wrong in every case. Not saying he does, as he doesn't post in my home forums here that much. AT&T has been fine for me and I know the general nature of the technology. I also know that spectrum is finite. In this article, they are reporting on problems at this particular event like its news and firing blame at AT&T. Yes, AT&T is to blame for network issues in certain areas and bad coverage. This is a different story where a technical limitation of GSM phone technology came largely into play. There is already areas to fire off blame legitimately at AT&T. Articles like this just cloud the issue for the naive.
I was a victim of bad AT&T network quality, but I do see their more recent investments around here paying off and am now happy with my service. Some areas never had an issue. It's still YMMV when it comes to any cell carrier. However, this article was about what happened at this event, which is what I commented on.
Hope that clears my position up. Anyways, no hard feelings.
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Onion, NJ | Re: Get used to it. said by Selenia: I also know that spectrum is finite. In this article, they are reporting on problems at this particular event like its news and firing blame at AT&T. Yes, AT&T is to blame for network issues in certain areas and bad coverage. This is a different story where a technical limitation of GSM phone technology came largely into play. So you are saying that ATT problems at this event were due to spectrum saturation, and not insufficient network capacity?
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| | | | | | | | | | SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2 Reviews:
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·AT&T Wireless Br..
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| Re: Get used to it. Could just as likely be spectrum saturation as much as it could be network saturation, with that many people. Each GSM channel is 5x2 for a total of 10 MHz. That alone would leave AT&T more vulnerable to this issue than Sprint of 'Verizon Wireless, who each use 1.25x2 for a 2.5 MHz channel. True, frequencies can be shared and recycled rather quickly, but we're talking 100k people. Assuming just 10k are online would be enough, especially iphone users. This is not hatred against Apple or anybody. iphone users tend to do things like stream a lot, which doesn't free up channels very efficiently. Then again, it could be network congestion. I would not call it insufficient because it can't handle 10k or so(I think that is a reasonable estimate) simultaneous users. Who can even be sure the cell tower's radio can handle even half that many connections?
I mean Jesus guys, you expect things to work in pretty extreme situations. You guys should have been at that 3 day concert I went to, up in Maine. No coverage from Verizon Wireless, Sprint, or AT&T. Not congestion-no coverage, period. It was a huge event with thousands of people. Does that mean they should have rushed coverage up there because there was an event? Get real.
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Onion, NJ | Re: Get used to it. said by Selenia:Who can even be sure the cell tower's radio can handle even half that many connections? so basically its all conjecture.
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| | | | | | | | | | SeleniaI love DebianPremium
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1 edit | Re: Get used to it. en102 The channels are much larger, which is actually a mixed blessing. 1. Large channels = large capacity + data rates (EVDO Rev A hits 3.1Mbps, HSPA hits 14.4 - HSPA+ hits 21Mbps - just not really deployed) 2. On the bad side - having GSM + HSPA 'is' the problem. carriers have ~40MHz of spectrum. Cutting over 2 channels of HSPA consumes half of the total available spectrum. GSM users still exist, and still consume spectrum for voice / data. 3. EVDO's data only ensures that a clobbered data network won't kill voice/sms. Not so on GSM/HSPA 4. EVDO is not growing much (well, except possibly in the US only) CDMA global stats (522,155,000 CDMA, vs 4.3 billion on GSM/HSPA)
If you guys really think VZW and Company overbuild for such a gross amount of excess users, then be my guest. I am pretty sure they will disappoint you at some huge event, as well. More bandwidth for me.
This whole post is crazy. If AT&T had a network blackout in NYC under normal loads(which they did), then that is news. 100k people at a music festival trying to tweet is not, because the carrier can't really be blamed for that.
Edit: Added quote because this guy said it very well, as to GSM vs CDMA. CDMA is not infallible, either.
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The new Sony rootkit-Using the ability to remove features you paid for. What's next? Boycott Sony products »[Rant] ps3 update = no more Linux | |
| | | | | | | | | | SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2
1 edit |
double post | |
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| | | | | | Logan 5Enjoying the CataclysmPremium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
Austin, TX
kudos:7 Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by Selenia:The dissatisfied scream loud, especially Apple fanbois LOL. Trying to be funny? I don't own anything made by Apple so you just come off looking as childish as the rest of the quote that follows this...
AT&T cannot keep up with current and next-gen usage demands while they insist that everything is ok and that there's plenty of bandwidth to go around for everybody.
As long as AT&T stays at the same level they are at now, they will continue to be out performed by the likes of Verizon and they know it but at the same time they don't want to spend the necessary capital to make the necessary upgrades.... what to do? | |
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| | | | bsoft
join:2004-03-28
Boulder, CO
1 edit | said by fiberguy:And, tell me, why is it EXACTLY AT&T's fault their network couldn't handle an event with that many people? Every network is supposed to build their network based on predicted use. Is it normal for that area to have THAT many people at one time in that area using their network at the same time? If Yes, then it's AT&Ts fault.. if no, then that's life. AT&T DID deploy 2 COWs, so they clearly knew about the event:
»blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/201···p_bu.php
So the excuse that AT&T couldn't anticipate the demand is bogus. AT&T knew about the event. AT&T had time to prepare for the event. The event has attracted huge crowds in the past. | |
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