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Toollio
join:2003-11-17
Brazil/Cda

1 edit

2 recommendations

Toollio

Member

[Future9] Rate surprises (and not good ones)

Has anyone else noticed lately that the rates quoted in the F9 rate page are not accurate?

I call Brazil cell phones, and the grey and white rates to the numbers I call are both quoted as $0.039. Yet the calls are billed at 0.099 USD and listed as "standard." The only one that is accurate is premium at $0.112

I emailed F9 Monday and received this response.

"The $0.039 route is down for a few days. Please be advised not to use it if that's a problem. It will be back up probably later this week."

Not exactly helpful. "Pleased be advised not to use it if that's a problem?" Of course paying almost triple the quoted rate is a problem.

And the cheap routes are not back (this is later this week), they are still being billed at higher rates. Yet the rates page continues to inform customers that rate is 3.9 cents.

Surely the rates page should be changed. The only way to check whether the more-than-quoted rates are applied without wasting money is to make a call and hang up before it is answered, then check your call records.
PX Eliezer704
Premium Member
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River

PX Eliezer704

Premium Member

Agree fully.

-----------------------

A somewhat related example: The Wendy's fast food company here says they can't easily get tomatoes, so they will include tomatoes only on request.

Fair enough.

But then they should lower the price of the hamburger if they are actually NOT providing something they provided before.
Toollio
join:2003-11-17
Brazil/Cda

Toollio

Member

Wendy's is doing the same in Canada. I noticed that when I was there a month ago (I am in Brazil now). There they say they can't get "quality" tomatoes. Apparently other fast food outlets are not having the same problem.

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT

ptrowski

Premium Member

Those are some fairly significant rate differences.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
Indeed; I wonder how many other routes this affects?
csudsu11
join:2004-05-28
Hackensack, NJ

csudsu11 to Toollio

Member

to Toollio
I wonder, does the F9-affiliated comparevoipproviderrates.com site reflect this?
nitzan
Premium Member
join:2008-02-27

1 recommendation

nitzan to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
Future Nine attempts to provide you with the cheapest rates we can. These are grey routes that are unstable and can go down at any point in time. If that happens you will be re-routed through a normal route at market price. Brazil mobile market price is around 13cents/minute and up. Some example:

Callcentric - $0.1375/min
Voip.ms - $0.133/min
Vonage - $0.17/min

At $0.099/min billed it's still cheaper than any provider I could find to Brazil mobile. $0.039 is a 3rd of the market price and it is no wonder it goes out once in a while. We could save ourselves the headache, remove this route, and have you pay the higher rate always - but we'd rather not do that.

I realize the rate page displaying the wrong rate is a problem- but there is no good solution that I can think of - other than to notify you not to use the route.
alpovs
join:2009-08-08

1 recommendation

alpovs to Toollio

Member

to Toollio
The attitude of Future9 is "if you don't like us, don't use us". I wonder how this business model will work out...
OmagicQ
Posting in a thread near you
join:2003-10-23
Bakersfield, CA

1 recommendation

OmagicQ

Member

said by alpovs:

The attitude of Future9 is "if you don't like us, don't use us". I wonder how this business model will work out...
Voting with your wallet is the surest way to communicate with a company how you feel about their product. I think he has plenty of satisfied customers who will continue to use F9's services for the long term. Others... well as some might say, "don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya"

*These comments are entirely my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Future Nine or any of its employees.

toro
join:2006-01-27
Scarborough, ON

1 recommendation

toro to Toollio

Member

to Toollio
I am not a F9 customer, but I guess if the same situation happened to me, I would expect at least an automated message playing at the time when I dial the number, informing me that the call could not be put through the cheapest route and it will be billed at a higher rate.

tom thomas
@qwest.net

1 recommendation

tom thomas to nitzan

Anon

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

Future Nine attempts to provide you with the cheapest rates we can. These are grey routes that are unstable and can go down at any point in time. If that happens you will be re-routed through a normal route at market price. Brazil mobile market price is around 13cents/minute and up. Some example:

Callcentric - $0.1375/min
Voip.ms - $0.133/min
Vonage - $0.17/min

At $0.099/min billed it's still cheaper than any provider I could find to Brazil mobile. $0.039 is a 3rd of the market price and it is no wonder it goes out once in a while. We could save ourselves the headache, remove this route, and have you pay the higher rate always - but we'd rather not do that.

I realize the rate page displaying the wrong rate is a problem- but there is no good solution that I can think of - other than to notify you not to use the route.
to me it would certainly seem more reasonable for the call to fail, perhaps with a message that the call would be successful through another route. at the very least there should be an option that would cause any call that would not be billed at the expected rate to fail.
Toollio
join:2003-11-17
Brazil/Cda

1 edit

Toollio to nitzan

Member

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

I realize the rate page displaying the wrong rate is a problem- but there is no good solution that I can think of - other than to notify you not to use the route.
Then why not fix the rate page? I am not complaining about the rates, I am complaining about the fact that the rates you are posting are unavailable and are wrong. if I check the grey and white rates, then make the call, I pay almost triple what you tell me I will pay. It has been that way for almost a week, that I know of. It could be longer. It is not a matter of hours.

BTW, mywebcalls offers 9.4 cents to Brazil cellulars and the routing seems to work well. I used your 9.9 cent route today and got a message in portuguese saying "this type of call cannot be made through this service" (I speak portuguese) and was charged 9.9 cents for the uncompleted call.
PX Eliezer704
Premium Member
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River

2 recommendations

PX Eliezer704 to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
I think that the issue is not the actual rate, but rather the notification to the customer.

No one likes an unpleasant surprise. Pleasant ones are OK.

If Kelly Clarkson suddenly shows up at your house, that's a pleasant surprise.

If Geraldo Rivera shows up at your house, that's an unpleasant surprise.

------------------------------

And---IF someone knows in advance that a call will cost more than previously, then they can adjust their call length accordingly.

------------------------------

We all agree that F9 is a good company, Nitzan is a good fellow, F9 has very good rates, and so forth.

But that's NOT the issue.

And I would say that regardless of which company it was.
Toollio
join:2003-11-17
Brazil/Cda

Toollio

Member

said by PX Eliezer704:

If Kelly Clarkson suddenly shows up at your house, that's a pleasant surprise.

Not so sure about that, especially if she decides to sing at my front door.
veloscaper
join:2006-07-19
90120

veloscaper to OmagicQ

Member

to OmagicQ
The attitude of Future9 is "if you don't like us, don't use us"... well as some might say, "don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya"
I guess this is why Future9 doesn't give out their business address. Though I guess it also protects them from potential lawsuits, not that I'm aware of any or causes for one.
nitzan
Premium Member
join:2008-02-27

nitzan to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
said by Toollio:

Then why not fix the rate page? I am not complaining about the rates, I am complaining about the fact that the rates you are posting are unavailable and are wrong. if I check the grey and white rates, then make the call, I pay almost triple what you tell me I will pay.
The only way to "fix" the rates page is to completely remove the cheaper route. If we do that we will not add it back because it's a PITA and we don't want to keep doing this every time a route goes down. At least until we can figure out a technical solution to this - the best I can do is ask you to use another provider to call the problem destination.

No offense, and I'm sorry about this - but we are too busy right now with other issues which are higher priority (the carrier change). Once that storm passes, we'll seriously look at better technical solutions for this issue.

jester121
Premium Member
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

1 recommendation

jester121 to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
Wouldn't it be more responsible to post on the website the highest possible price it could be, then if the cheaper route is available when the call is made, charge the customer the lower rate?

(Unless, of course, one is solely focused on advertising the lowest rate in the market, reality be damned.)
Toollio
join:2003-11-17
Brazil/Cda

1 edit

Toollio to nitzan

Member

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

The only way to "fix" the rates page is to completely remove the cheaper route. If we do that we will not add it back because it's a PITA and we don't want to keep doing this every time a route goes down.
No offense, but quoting one rate and charging another is most likely illegal. Price misrepresentation almost always is.

No offense, but how difficult can it be to have a database in which you enter a new number?

No offense, but I am too busy to make a test call every time I want to figure out what your real rates are.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango to nitzan

Premium Member

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

No offense, and I'm sorry about this - but we are too busy right now with other issues which are higher priority
Oh, wow. If I ever said something like that to a customer I'm sure I'd get fired.

N9MD
Too busy to chat
Premium Member
join:2005-10-08
Boca Raton, FL

1 recommendation

N9MD

Premium Member

Oh, c'mon ... give Nitzan a break.

No one is right or wrong here ... but Nitzan is knee deep in making major changes to his product at this moment. Don't overread any intent to insult or demean in his responses. It's kind of tough for a small business to drop everything just to "fix" a problem that probably affects two or three of its customers.

I'll bet he is racking his brain for a solution ... but there may be no "quick fix" available. Not to be antagonistic, but if it really bothers anyone, go to another provider. The vast majority of F9 customers won't care a whit about occasional higher price calls to Brazil.

buckeyered
Premium Member
join:2005-05-07
Hamilton, OH

1 recommendation

buckeyered to Toollio

Premium Member

to Toollio
I left F9 for other reasons but I encountered this in the past and I just had nitzan put me on the premium route all the time, to many issues with the gray and the savings isn't much when you figure in all the false answers before you ever get connected. The gray route is good for advertising but not much else.

motoracer
join:2003-09-15
united state

1 recommendation

motoracer to Toollio

Member

to Toollio
Not a F9 customer...but damn, can't believe the head of a company is giving these responses to his customers.
gbh2o
join:2000-12-18
Longs, SC

gbh2o to N9MD

Member

to N9MD
I like the option at competitor CWU by which I can set the highest rate I'm willing to pay. I routinely get the lowest grey rates, but when/if something is wrong, I receive alternative routing so long as it is below my declared price 'pain' threshold. It seems like a fair solution. Of course I trust CWU that the effort is first made to follow my 'grey(gray)' preference .. just because I choose to trust the owner who has shown himself to be reliable.

I would imagine that after the thrashing of major changes that F9 is presently undergoing, Nitzan will pursue a rational solution to this problem also. Again I believe that some good faith effort will be forth-coming solely because I choose to trust the owner. I have observed that previous F9 problem solutions have _not_ been advertised until they were carefully designed and fully tested and really ready to be implemented. I imagine that Nitzan has noted the issue and will address it more fully as time becomes available.

I would think that the OP would choose an alternate route on his own at this point, having found that he can not currently use a particular F9 route. Repeatedly throwing oneself at a brick wall in the belief that one will be able to go through it seems pointless to me.
DaveSin
join:2009-07-17

DaveSin to buckeyered

Member

to buckeyered
said by buckeyered:

I left F9 for other reasons but I encountered this in the past and I just had nitzan put me on the premium route all the time, to many issues with the gray and the savings isn't much when you figure in all the false answers before you ever get connected. The gray route is good for advertising but not much else.
Same here!! I move both my numbers from F9 due to the issues with the advertised rates and the actual realities, couple with what I considered was unprofessional responses from F9 on minor enquiries I had made. I could not get any calls to go through the grey route to the a particular international destination. I was told that the Grey Route is unreliable, yet this is the rate that shows up when you do a rate comparison.

I setup a friend of mine with F9 on PAP2T-NA with a pay as you go account and for the past week or two, she has been unable to make calls to the same destination, with problems of one-way audio on the White Route to mobile phones (no problems to landlines). Support ticket to F9 went unanswered.

I think it is misleading to advertise Grey Route rates when in reality it does not work...I would get rid of those rates, since it almost come across as a bait-and-switch tactics.
PX Eliezer704
Premium Member
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River

2 recommendations

PX Eliezer704

Premium Member

said by DaveSin:

I think it is misleading to advertise Grey Route rates when in reality it does not work...I would get rid of those rates, since it almost come across as a bait-and-switch tactics.
At a minimum, it sets up customers for disappointment and bad feelings.

It also is unfair to any competitors who use a more conservative approach to their published rates.

----------------------------------------

Customer: How much is the steak?

Butcher: $ 2.99 a pound.

Customer: But the guy across the street charges $ 2.69 a pound!

Butcher: So buy it from him!

Customer: He's out of it!

Butcher: Look, Lady, when WE are out of steak, the price is also $ 2.69 a pound.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango to DaveSin

Premium Member

to DaveSin
said by DaveSin:

I think it is misleading to advertise Grey Route rates when in reality it does not work...I would get rid of those rates, since it almost come across as a bait-and-switch tactics.
Almost like advertising unlimited calling when there's actually only 1000 minutes

m.
pcunite
join:2010-04-10

1 edit

1 recommendation

pcunite to Toollio

Member

to Toollio
This is why VoIP companies had better get their heads around these type issues and start using advanced programming logic. This issue should have presented the customer with a sound prompt "We're sorry the number you dialed can not be billed at the standard rate. A charge of .99 per minute will be billed. Press 1 to continue your call."

See what I mean? Don't charge the customer more than what you told them it would be.
nitzan
Premium Member
join:2008-02-27

nitzan to DaveSin

Premium Member

to DaveSin
said by DaveSin:

I could not get any calls to go through the grey route to the a particular international destination.
...
I setup a friend of mine with F9 on PAP2T-NA with a pay as you go account and for the past week or two, she has been unable to make calls to the same destination...
I don't understand this. If you already knew there were problems calling this destination via Future Nine - why did you setup the friend on F9?? If you found a better solution with another provider - why didn't you set them up with that other provider and save everyone the heartache? alternatively - why didn't you set them up on the PREMIUM route with F9 to avoid these problems?

Some destinations, Africa for example, are just HARD to get reliable termination to. We do the best that we can but that's all we can do. That's why we have 3 route types. If you don't like the quality on the grey route - don't use it! Use premium route and pay the higher rates. It is YOUR choice and YOUR responsibility if you KNOW the grey route is bad to a destination yet you keep using it. We're not going to remove all grey routes just because you don't like them. If you don't like them don't use them.

It's not like we're forcing you to use the grey route. In fact we make it very clear in our FAQs how to change the route quality - and we also make it clear that these problems are not something we can control. We can't. We're not going to stop offering grey routes because a few users don't like them. If you don't like them - we have the premium route - or alternatively there are other providers. Complaining about it and trying to get us to remove the grey routes is like going to a car company and telling them they should remove all SUVs from production because they are gas-guzzlers - it might be true, it might be a problem, but there are still people who'd buy it regardless of what you think about it. Live and let live - and move on.

Just FYI- Grey routes constitute about 30% of our traffic, perhaps more. Removing it would have quite a bit of an impact: less sales, less customers, less stability. It's easy for you to say "don't offer grey routes" - but I have a lot more to consider than your personal opinion. I fully understand we're going to lose a few customers who get annoyed at grey routes - but that's part of business - we get a lot more customers who come in FOR the grey routes than ones who leave because of them. If a few users leave it's unfortunate - but we can't be everything to everyone.
nitzan

nitzan to pcunite

Premium Member

to pcunite
said by pcunite:

This is why VoIP companies had better get their heads around these type issues and start using advanced programming logic. This issue should have presented the customer with a sound prompt "We're sorry the number you dialed can not be billed at the standard rate. A charge of .99 per minute will be billed. Press 1 to continue your call."
As I said- we're planning on working on a technical solution to this. something like this might be a good idea. The problem is that something like this will require quite a bit of work to implement. It's not just a matter of flipping a switch. Right now we have a higher priority with the carrier changes - after that is done we'll be looking at a better solution.

I'm not saying the issue the OP brings up is not a problem - it is. What I am saying is it's impossible for us to offer him a real solution in a timely manner. As such all we can say is be patient or move to another company. This isn't personal. I'd love for him (and anyone) to stay. Perhaps the original wording of the reply to him was poor and we should have explained this better and let him know WHY we can't fix it immediately - I apologize for that. I'll make sure we do explain it in the same situation arises again.
sokhapkin
Premium Member
join:2003-05-08
North Fort Myers, FL

sokhapkin to nitzan

Premium Member

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

We can't. We're not going to stop offering grey routes because a few users don't like them. If you don't like them - we have the premium route - or alternatively there are other providers.
Nitzan, be calm. I understand you 100%. It's impossible to get rid of unwanted customers. They come and come. And they expect to get $100 service for $5 they pay...