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wilbilt
Pronto Resurrected
Premium Member
join:2004-01-11
Oroville, CA

wilbilt

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Pond Pump Keeps Tripping GFCI

I have a very small pond with a "waterfall" in my yard. About a year ago, the pump gave up, so I bought a new one. It cost about $65 (ouch!).

After about a month, the pump started tripping the GFCI on the outlet the pump is connected to. Actually, the GFCI outlet is on the side of the house, and I have about 50' of direct-burial cable connected to the load side of the GFCI that powers the receptacle at the pond.

Since it is time to clean out the pond and get it going for this year, I pulled out the pump to investigate. I let it dry out for a few days and sealed any obvious seams with RTV and checked the cord for any obvious damage. Everything looks good.

Today, I filled a 5-gallon bucket with water and put the pump in it. I plugged it in to a different GFCI outlet (suspecting the other one might be "nuisance tripping") and it ran fine for about 10 minutes. The GFCI tripped, and further attempts caused the GFCI to trip within 10-15 seconds.

Searching around, I see lots of references to submersible pumps causing GFCI trips, and suggestions to not run them on a GFCI circuit.

This seems dangerous to me, but these pumps are expensive.

Opinions?

macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV

macsierra8

Premium Member

A good submersible pump will run $150 and up. I went with a Zoeller but there are other good ones out there that will run on a GFCI and not fault.

I've never had any luck with the lower priced ones...

wilbilt
Pronto Resurrected
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join:2004-01-11
Oroville, CA

wilbilt

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This pond is about 2'x4'...for $150, I would just as soon fill it with sand LOL.

mityfowl
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join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX

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I think my friends pay about $50 for little giants. Last 6 years or so.

macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
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Minden, NV

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said by wilbilt:

This pond is about 2'x4'...for $150, I would just as soon fill it with sand LOL.
Yep, I hear you..

I have a friend with a pond behind the house with a "water feature" and he's had nothing but trouble with submersible pumps. It's always costly to imitate mother nature..

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

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Its extremely likely, that your installation has a ground fault, and the GFCI is doing its job to protect you. The ground fault could be:
- damaged underground wiring
- poor connections / terminations at the pump, which is getting wet
- a bad pump, with windings that are 'leaking' current to its grounded housing, creating a ground fault large enough to trip the GFCI
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

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For just small ponds I have had ok luck even with little giants and similar products on sale. I believe the way the ones I buy are made is a fairly straightforward process and there are zero seams to fail.
They just put together the windings etc. and cover them totally along with any connections etc. No failure points due to water leakage.
Not super high class but for a small pond on gfci just fine.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

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said by wilbilt:

Opinions?
I have four Pondmaster pumps, from a statuary to 1800 gph, and they all run on a GFCI circuit. The GFCI is at the house, the pond is 50-60 feet away, and the wire is 12 AWG UF. The pumps cost me $50 to $150 or so.

In about five years the only GFCI trip I have ever had was during a driving rain when I had an exposed plug-cord connection.

I have another GFCI that I haven't gotten around to fixing, which trips a lot when the ground is wet, from March to June. So I have a pretty good idea what's going on there.

When you tested on a different GFCI, and it ran for ten minutes, had the pump been dry before that? And then it tripped every 10-15 seconds? This looks like an insulation problem in the pump or the submerged cord. You cannot fix that, unfortunately.

You could try a different brand of GFCI, though.

Cho Baka
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join:2000-11-23
there

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Seems pretty clear that you have narrowed it down to a bad pump.

This leaves 3 options.

Fill pond with sand.
Replace pump with better pump.
Bypass GFCI, assume the risk and have a really hot pond.

jack b
Gone Fishing
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join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod

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I would not attempt to run it without a working GFCI.

God forbid something ever happened to someone, and you have it hooked up without proper electrical safeguards.

Lark3po
Premium Member
join:2003-08-05
Madison, AL

2 edits

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said by Cho Baka:

Seems pretty clear that you have narrowed it down to a bad pump.

This leaves 3 options.

Fill pond with sand.
Replace pump with better pump.
Bypass GFCI, assume the risk and have a really hot pond.
Option 4 is to replace the GFCI with a higher trip and see if that helps. I think the standard GFCIs trip around 3-6 mA. I believe you get them that have a higher trip current, somewhere around 300-400 mA.

Me? I would fill that bad boy in! No more power sucking toy pond trouble!

Ken Peterson
Premium Member
join:2000-12-08

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Years ago GFCI didn't even exist and people had ponds like this. I don't recall hearing that they were "death pools". Granted, as we learn and technology advances, we learn how to protect ourselves better. I am not trying to advocate irresponsible use and get anyone electrocuted, but...

I am sure many run electric shavers from non-GFCI circuits in bathrooms and we're still here.

Yet, if it were me, and I really wanted to have a little pond, I'd spend the extra for a more insulated pump so I could retain the GFCI circuit.

Edit: corrections to "GFCI"

chamberc
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join:2008-08-05
Addison, TX

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GFCI is not your friend... I love moving into a new house and having to always pull them all out and replace with standard outlets... that's your best bet here...

nunya
LXI 483
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You aren't going to find any special "adjustable" GFCI. There's adjustable GFPE, but I highly doubt the $1,500.00+ price tag is in the budget.

GFCI is required (not optional) outdoors for a reason. Your GFCI is simply doing its job. The pump is bad.

If you were to take that bad pump and plug it into a non-GFCI outlet, you would energize the water.

For the non-believers, since the adoption of GFCI requirements, electrocution deaths have decreased each year while overall usage has increased. They really do save lives.

Jahntassa
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Conway, SC

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said by chamberc:

GFCI is not your friend... I love moving into a new house and having to always pull them all out and replace with standard outlets... that's your best bet here...
And that's wonderfully bad advice. Not only is it not safe, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't pass any inspections, and quite possibly nullify your insurance in case of an electrical fire.

nunya
LXI 483
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2nd: that is terrible and dangerous advice.

wilbilt
Pronto Resurrected
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Oroville, CA

wilbilt

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Thanks for all the repiles...

I plugged the pump into a non-GFCI outlet via an extension cord.

All afternoon, it has been running 1 minute ON, 3 minutes OFF due to what I assume is an internal overload.

I guess it's time for a new pump. I hate "Made in China".


Cho Baka
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join:2000-11-23
there

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said by Jahntassa:
said by chamberc:

GFCI is not your friend... I love moving into a new house and having to always pull them all out and replace with standard outlets... that's your best bet here...
And that's wonderfully bad advice. Not only is it not safe, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't pass any inspections, and quite possibly nullify your insurance in case of an electrical fire.
Jantassa, I think we have been trolled.

macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
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join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV

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Yep, this should take care of it..


robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

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If you are buying a new pump, make sure it is a mag drive. Don't get one of the oil filled ones -- old technology.

james16
join:2001-02-26

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said by Ken Peterson:

I am not trying to advocate irresponsible use and get anyone electrocuted
Then stop advocating irresponsible use and trying to get people electrocuted.
said by Ken Peterson:

I am sure many run electric shavers from non-CFI circuits in bathrooms and we're still here.
Lots of people drive drunk too and 99% of the time nothing bad happens. Guess it's safe.

Toadman
Hypnotoad
join:2001-11-28
Mystery

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Member

I have used little giant pumps with good luck on my Koi ponds. If you are in a pinch, you could check at a pet shop or supply store and look at the power heads. They are used for underground filters in aquariums. Just make sure that you see what the flow is rated for at what head. Many powerheads can only handle a 2-3 foot head and then there is no flow. There should be a chart on the side of the box.

i1me2ao
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join:2001-03-03
TEXAS

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have you tried anything else plugged into that outlet. i had pool pump tripping gfci in backyard. cause was water running down fireplace into outlet and filling it up when it rained.

also research pump, it may not be compatible with gfci. i know it is different but my nordiac track treadmill will not run on GFCI outlet. it says this in the manual.

Camelot One
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The problem you describe exactly matches one I had a few years ago, after installing a pump from Lowes. It would trip the GFCI, and when I tried running it off of a standard outlet, it would run for awhile, then shut off, then run again, etc.

The issue is the pump. The cheap ones are made with very low head lift (you might as well ignore the bogus ratings on the box) When you throw a filter into the mix, they get over-stressed. Initially this results in a spike in their power draw, which is what is tripping the GFCI. Without the GFCI, the pump's internal circuitry eventually shuts it off.

The solution is simple, replace the pump. You don't need to spend $150 on something for such a small pond, but you do need a quality pump rated for both waterfall AND filter use.

whizkid3
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join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3

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said by Camelot One:

The issue is the pump. The cheap ones are made with very low head lift (you might as well ignore the bogus ratings on the box) When you throw a filter into the mix, they get over-stressed. Initially this results in a spike in their power draw, which is what is tripping the GFCI. Without the GFCI, the pump's internal circuitry eventually shuts it off.
GFCIs do not trip on overloaded power or 'spike in power draw'. They only trip on ground faults, where the current in the hot does not equal the current in the neutral, because some current is 'leaking' to ground.

However, one can guess that cheap pump motors that are overloaded, will quickly burn their cheap winding insulation, creating a ground fault that will trip a GFCI. The discussion of the pump head and the pumps ability to pump through a filter overloading the pump is spot on.

CompUser
join:2001-11-07
Ada, OH

CompUser

Member

Hi, I don't mean to thread jack, but reading this thread gave me some ideas to check with my GFCI that has been randomly tripping. It turns out my exterior outlet is connected to the GFCI in the bathroom, who knew? Thanks!

Kylemaul
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Puyallup, WA

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the replacement pump doesn't necessarily have to be submersible...

PeeWee
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Madera, CA

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Usually the problem with these installations is the length of wire between gfci and pump. 50 to 60 feet of wire creates a field that give the breaker a false reading. I would suggest using an exterior box and gfci locally.
PeeWee

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said by CompUser:

Hi, I don't mean to thread jack, but reading this thread gave me some ideas to check with my GFCI that has been randomly tripping. It turns out my exterior outlet is connected to the GFCI in the bathroom, who knew? Thanks!
Commonly done, and will pass inspection, but causes problems as you can see.

nunya
LXI 483
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nunya

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Commonly done in the past (a very poor practice). Will no longer pass inspection. Bathrooms are required to be on a dedicated 20A circuit that only goes to bathroom.