| Granting the power to giveth, also to taketh. This is the fault of people who believe that the federal government has the power create such legislation in the first place. You grant this power and they will use it for nefarious purposes. This is the way it has always ended under such systems.
That is why the Constitution was written to prevent our federal government from having such powers. The state governments have the power, just not the federal government.
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| said by I Use Dial:That is why the Constitution was written to prevent our federal government from having such powers. The state governments have the power, just not the federal government. I totally agree. The more power gov't has, the harder those regulated will try to influence the process, and the reality & history is that they will. |
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said by I Use Dial:That is why the Constitution was written to prevent our federal government from having such powers. The state governments have the power, just not the federal government. A couple of problems with your analysis.
1. Interstate Commerce clause.
2. The constitution was written to create more power held by an even more remote and larger government. This was just 12 years (1789) after the founding generation lived under the relatively libertarian and states'-rights'ish Articles of Confederation.
I agree that it's not a blank check. But, it definitely has to be interpreted in the context of a founding generation that was exasperated with limited, decentralized government. A population who wanted more efficient government, with greater powers, executed from a more centralized and remote location. (I.e., if they wanted what you say they wanted, they would have remained with the Articles of Confederation.).
IMO, the problem isn't that the federal government has the power to regulate interstate communications. It's that corporations have been deemed "people" with the same rights as naturally-born people.
Corporations were initially legal, yet fictional "persons" created by state legislatures to indemnify officers and investors from personal responsibility for losses created by the business venture.
After the 14th Amendment (and its loose definition of citizenship), corporations began to be treated by law as any ordinary "person."
It's like one of those science fiction movies where society creates robots who become self-aware and take over society. (The "AI wars.").
The solution isn't to go back to the Articles of Confederation, it's to amend the 14th Amendment and stipulate that corporations have no political rights as "people." Investors and officers of a corporation do. |
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| Your understanding of the Interstate Commerce Clause is not correct. There are countless quotes from people like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, etc., clearly indicating that the purpose of the clause is to keep the trade regular, as in not allowing states to create tariffs or otherwise hamper trade between them. It does not grant Congress the power to micromanage economic activity. From James Madison:
Among the several states' ...grew the abuses of the power by the importing states in taxing the non-importing, and was intended as a negative and preventative provision against injustice among the States themselves, rather than as a power to be used for the positive purposes of the General Government. The 14th amendment was only to apply to freedmen. However, I do believe that citizens have a right to group together, and their rights as a group are equal to their rights as individuals. The 1st amendment guarantees this.
Yes, the Constitution is more centralized that the Articles of Confederation, but only for very few things. The Articles made a substantial number of trivial things very difficult, like getting passports or visas. This is why the states were agreeable to a new governing document, however, they were still equally suspicious of a central government, which is why Madison also stated that the powers of Congress are limited and defined, whereas the power of the states is undefined.
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| said by I Use Dial:Your understanding of the Interstate Commerce Clause is not correct. There are countless quotes from people like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, etc., clearly indicating that the purpose of the clause is to keep the trade regular, as in not allowing states to create tariffs or otherwise hamper trade between them. I agree. But, remember that the founding generation couldn't fathom things like national communication, travel, etc. They couldn't even foresee their own needs just 12 years after the Revolution (when they ditched a pure "states' rights" model for a larger, more powerful government.).
Every generation since has simply done the same thing as the founding generation... seeking a more efficient, effective government.
said by I Use Dial:The 14th amendment was only to apply to freedmen. It doesn't matter what it was to do. It matters what it has done. It has made us unique among the world by granting instant citizenship to children of those who are in the country as visitors, or even illegally.
And, it has been the basis for granting the rights of individuals to corporations.
said by I Use Dial: However, I do believe that citizens have a right to group together, and their rights as a group are equal to their rights as individuals. The 1st amendment guarantees this. When a corporation lobbies government, it is not necessarily representing the association of its stockholders. Today, stockholders may invest in a corporation without agreeing to a corporation's entire agenda. They may not agree with any of it if, like most investors, they purchase an index fund like the S&P 500.
I'm ok with individuals forming political action groups and freely consenting to that agenda. A corporation isn't that.
However if a corporation chose to create a political-action group, and investors or employees freely joined and contributed, I could see the validity. Then it would be clear who's political influence is being represented as a freely-associated group.
said by I Use Dial:Yes, the Constitution is more centralized that the Articles of Confederation, but only for very few things. The anti-federalists disagreed with you. The new federal government was a massive expansion of power. Subordinating states (which had been sovereign) to the new government's power.
You'll say states were subordinated in only insignificant ways. But, the commerce, general welfare and republican-form-of-government clauses were huge loopholes. (The latter two being the basis to prevent states from withdrawing from the union.).
That's huge. |
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said by I Use Dial:Yes, the Constitution is more centralized that the Articles of Confederation, but only for very few things. Also, don't forget the "one-state veto rule" which existed under the Articles of Confederation. States like New York and Rhode Island vetoed proposed imposts to pay the debt of the revolution. One of the factors leading to growing demands to abandon the relatively libertarian Articles of Confederation for the larger, more centralized government.
Losing the state power to veto the union's plans is a huge shift in power. When debates over the new constitution became serious, New York offered New Jersey a deal not to tax its imports, even refunding past harbor taxes if New Jersey would oppose creation of the new federal government.
The subordination of states to the new government was huge. If they wanted to preserve states rights, they would have remained with the Articles of Confederation. Clearly the founding generation wanted to sacrifice a large degree of liberty for security.
You'll say that ending the one-state veto was a narrow capitulation of power. But, the principle which the founding generation sought to correct is the same as the principle applied to interstate communications. If left to individual states it would be a race to the bottom. Each state reducing regulations to attract business to the detriment of neighboring states. |
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Unfortunately I don't have time today to debate these points. You're still not correct on understanding the Constitution. The General Welfare clause is also misinterpreted - many great quotes and writings from the authors of the document support this, including Madison who points out that if the General Welfare clause were meant to allow the federal government to do anything, then why would they bother to go to such lengths immediately following the clause to explain the limitations on the powers of Congress?
To claim that because the document is abused means that the whole thing is rotten is a fallacy. The problem is with lack of respect for the rule of law. You stated that because there have been so many changes that the Constitution is no longer valid, which is also a fallacious argument. Built into the Constitution is the path to change it, as was done to abolish slavery, give women the right to vote, ban alcohol, unban alcohol, etc. Tearing down the rule of law is what is at the heart of the matter, not changes in technology.
As far as shareholders go, a fool and his money are soon departed. Not researching where money is going is no justification to violate the first amendment guarantee to peaceably gather and petition the government. The irony behind all of the claims to the evils of what corporations do with 'free speech' is that the case the Supreme Court used to 'return' these rights was one involving a grass-roots 'corporation'.
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The same people who argued for the Constitution also argued that the states have the rights of nullification and even cessation.
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said by I Use Dial:This is the fault of people who believe that the federal government has the power create such legislation in the first place. You grant this power and they will use it for nefarious purposes. This is the way it has always ended under such systems. That is why the Constitution was written to prevent our federal government from having such powers. The state governments have the power, just not the federal government. That horse left the corral a LONG time ago. The states are just more beggars to be handed Federal money. When you are on the welfare teat like the states are, any real power is gone.
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said by I Use Dial:if the General Welfare clause were meant to allow the federal government to do anything, then why would they bother to go to such lengths immediately following the clause to explain the limitations on the powers of Congress? I didn't say these clauses could justify "anything." Just that they were included for a reason, obviously in addition to the enumerated powers. Similar to your argument, the enumerated powers can't render these clauses meaningless either.
However, the most important thing to remember is that the founding generation moved to the new constitution as part of a desire for larger, more effective and centralized government. Not the other way around (as advocates of minimal government and states' rights imply).
said by I Use Dial:You stated that because there have been so many changes that the Constitution is no longer valid, which is also a fallacious argument. I didn't say the Constitution isn't valid. I said it may not be as rigid and defined the way you insist it is. Just as the founding generation desired more effective and powerful government, each generation since has desired the same thing. And, the founding generation put rather broad grants of power in the Constitution to allow for it to be a living, breathing document. Not requiring amendment for every unforeseen change (such as the department of energy, labor, education, etc.).
You may not like that. But, you can't wave a wand and make those broad clauses vanish.
said by I Use Dial:As far as shareholders go, a fool and his money are soon departed. Not researching where money is going is no justification to violate the first amendment guarantee to peaceably gather and petition the government. The issue is whether putting your 401k money in an index fund (of 500 or 1000 companies) is a "peaceable gathering" for the purpose of petitioning government.
I don't believe anyone who does so is intending to support the political views of any of those companies. Insisting that they are (in a quest for ideological purity) undermines our system of representation.
If corporations were prohibited from exercising "free speech" as a naturally-born person, it would not prevent anyone (employed by or invested in) from exercising their free speech on behalf of the corporation, nor joining together to leverage their effort.
That's hardly a coercive exercise of government power. It simply begs the question of whether a "person" created by the state, and treated as a natural "person" who comprises the state is itself an act of coercion against those natural "persons." |
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said by I Use Dial:The same people who argued for the Constitution also argued that the states have the rights of nullification and even cessation. Clearly that wasn't how it turned out when the Constitution granted the federal government the expansive power to ensure every state provides a republican form of government to its citizens. By definition, withdrawing from the union would deny its citizens such protection and be contrary to such form of government.
The debates over the constitution were dominated by hyperbole. The Bill or Rights were essentially a sop to the anti-federalists who had effectively instilled fear through hyperbole. The Bill of Rights isn't an absolute protection or definition or rights. Just as the enumerated powers (some being extremely broad) aren't limited to the challenges the founding generation faced. More accurately, both are principles to be balanced. |
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said by fAcEtIOUs:That horse left the corral a LONG time ago. The states are just more beggars to be handed Federal money. When you are on the welfare teat like the states are, any real power is gone. There was no real power the moment the Constitution was ratified. The contradiction between federal supremacy and so-called state's rights, 3/5 representation of slaves (without actual representation), responsibility to force states to provide a republican form of government, etc.
The real problem was slavery. The creation of a supreme, federal government would ultimately lead to states finding out who is "sovereign." You can't ratify a constitution embodying principles of free will and autonomy while enslaving your residents. Insisting they count in terms of representation, but can't be represented.
The question is whether things would be better with sovereign states under the Articles of Confederation. One doesn't have to look very hard to see how that was working for 12 years. We might not have survived either world war, etc. Not when one state can simply withdraw because it's in their self-interest to charge their neighbors impost fees than to work for a common good.
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
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Tulsa, OK
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said by amigo_boy:IMO, the problem isn't that the federal government has the power to regulate interstate communications. It's that corporations have been deemed "people" with the same rights as naturally-born people. Corporations were initially legal, yet fictional "persons" created by state legislatures to indemnify officers and investors from personal responsibility for losses created by the business venture. After the 14th Amendment (and its loose definition of citizenship), corporations began to be treated by law as any ordinary "person." This. Treating a Corporation and other entities as legal people with political rights and "Free Speech" rights the same as an individual is doing great harm to our country. And the Supreme Court is ruling that laws that restrict Corporations political influence violate their free speech rights... but they are not a person!
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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said by amigo_boy:IMO, the problem isn't that the federal government has the power to regulate interstate communications. It's that corporations have been deemed "people" with the same rights as naturally-born people. The solution isn't to go back to the Articles of Confederation, it's to amend the 14th Amendment and stipulate that corporations have no political rights as "people." Investors and officers of a corporation do. Holy shit! We actually agree on something. Is it Dec 21, 2012? |
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said by KrK: And the Supreme Court is ruling that laws that restrict Corporations political influence violate their free speech rights... but they are not a person! Personally, I believe the SC ruled the way it did to force Congress to deal with the underlying problem: corporations considered "persons" equal to living persons.
If the SC had been expedient and ruled against corporate rights, what would prevent it from being expedient in the future with other unpopular groups?
I don't think individuals should be prevented from joining together to leverage their shared political views.
But, that's not the problem with Corporations. Their right to speech, privacy, association, etc., doesn't derive from the collection of people who join the corporation in some way. It derives from corporations being considered "a person" in law. And, a late 1800s court decision which was construed to apply the privileges and immunities of the 14th Amendment (extended to all persons who are citizens of a state, and the united states) to corporations because they're "persons."
What started out as a way to encourage commercial activity with a goal to serve the community (for example, the original corporate charters of England to establish trading posts), the community now serves the commercial activity (respecting its rights).
We used the the powers of naturally-born persons, delegated to state legislatures, to create (through the fiat of public law) "persons" to shield officers and investors from their financial liability of a commercial venture goes wrong. And now those "persons" compete with the naturally-born persons for representation of those delegated powers from naturally-born persons(!).
That has nothing to do with groups of people (like the elderly, the NRA, pro-life, et. al.) joining freely together to consolidate their representation. |
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| reply to fAcEtIOUs
said by fAcEtIOUs:said by I Use Dial:This is the fault of people who believe that the federal government has the power create such legislation in the first place. You grant this power and they will use it for nefarious purposes. This is the way it has always ended under such systems. That is why the Constitution was written to prevent our federal government from having such powers. The state governments have the power, just not the federal government. That horse left the corral a LONG time ago. The states are just more beggars to be handed Federal money. When you are on the welfare teat like the states are, any real power is gone. Like you are sucking on the welfare teat by accepting Medicare? |
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2 edits | said by digitalfreak:Like you are sucking on the welfare teat by accepting Medicare? The constitution was, to a large degree based upon the same principle MMH complains about. It involved some states losing, and some winning. For example, commercial states (like New York with a deep harbor) losing the ability to impose fees upon less fortunate states.
Basically a "redistribution of wealth." Why else would New York offer to stop taxing (and refund past taxes to) New Jersey in return for New Jersey opposing the proposed federal government?
The whole "socialism" and "welfare teat" rhetoric usually has to do with who's on the losing side. It's just a game of ox goring. When someone gets to gore someone else's ox, it's "in the national interest." When it's their ox, suddenly it's "welfare."
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
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said by amigo_boy:Personally, I believe the SC ruled the way it did to force Congress to deal with the underlying problem: corporations considered "persons" equal to living persons. And I think it's too late. With the power lobbyists have over Congress now, It's unlikely we'll ever see change on this issue.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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MrHappy316Wish I had my tankPremium
join:2003-01-02
Summerville, SC
1 edit | reply to I Use Dial
Tell that to my state of SC who found out pretty quick that wasn't the case
edit Response box ended up in the wrong spot this was suppose to be a response to Dial /edit |
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WhatNowPremium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC | reply to amigo_boy
Most people forget the United States was set by some of the most wealthy men in the North American. They did not like the heavy taxes with little or no representation in Parliament. It worked out for individual rights over the years but the government was set up for the rich by the rich. For years you had to own land to even vote. The were not interested in the unwashed except for cheap labor and soldiers.
What makes has made this country great is almost everyone comes from families that had a malcontent that did not like the status quo where they lived. They had that get up and go urge and they got up and left from where ever or they were invited to leave or go to jail because they did not make life for those in power easy.
The only problem I have with Corporations being treated as a person is how do you send a corporation to jail. You can fine it out of business but Humans make the decisions yet in many cases there is a wall the decision makers hide behind. In my State a few decades ago a big corporation pleaded guilty to having a political slush fund but no individual was punished. All but one of the 11 executives that may have done some jail time if the Corporation had not taken the criminal hit were promoted to high level jobs over the years.
Take Enron the top all played to it was the corporation card I didn't know. Yes most went to jail but they may not today with the recent ruling from the SC on the good services law. In the company I work for the mangers complain about the encouragement they give to the company political PACs. They know if they don't their career will stall or they will be shown the door for something else. It is no different then a Union doing the same thing. There should be no bundling of donations where one person or company get credit. If you can persuade those same people to send in donations with their on stamp great but getting a picture with a President because you handed a big chunk of money you "raised" does not get it with me. |
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