Topic '35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 02 Jan 2011 06:48:19 EDT

jack b posted : If the main gas supply regulator is set @ 14 inches, you don't need a third regulator. If it is in fact 2 psi you are likely going to need an industrial type gas regulator that incorporates a pressure lock up. Chances are very good the generator operating valve has a 1/2 psi max inlet pressure rating and many regulators will pass line pressure through under no load.

You're looking for something along these lines, 210D:
»estore.industrialcontrolsonline.···01IN.pdf

Smallest is 1x1 but you can pipe it in with bell reducer couplings. Order it with a suitable spring to give you 14 inches max outlet.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 02 Jan 2011 03:49:13 EDT
zen1 posted :
said by bassetts:
The gas company has set up the regulators already. With the new gas line we have a high pressure regulator to feed the generator and then feed the house. After the high pressure regulator we have a low pressure regulator to feed the stuff in the house.

We still need to get a 3rd regulator to install just before the generator. We dont have that right now or we would have got this baby started today for a test. Our generator says it needs 5"-14" of WC. The 1st regulator from the street has been set a 14"WC if I remember right. We just need to find a 3/4 inch regulator that meets now needs.

We also still need to get a transfer switch

i see the generator is tapped into the output of the high pressure regulator already, why do you need another one, when you have one set for 14" WC. already?? unless the gas company requires it for safety in case the high pressure regulator fails??.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 02 Jan 2011 00:44:39 EDT
macsierra posted : The first gas company regulator at 14" WC will probably supply ample gas for the generator with that short of a run. Any additional regulators will starve the generator for gas.

Best thing to do is to get yourself a WC gauge and check the gas pressure at the generator when running under full load.

Like this one:

»www.amazon.com/General-Tools-GPK···01TOFRNG
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 02 Jan 2011 00:25:14 EDT
bassetts posted : The gas company has set up the regulators already. With the new gas line we have a high pressure regulator to feed the generator and then feed the house. After the high pressure regulator we have a low pressure regulator to feed the stuff in the house.

We still need to get a 3rd regulator to install just before the generator. We dont have that right now or we would have got this baby started today for a test. Our generator says it needs 5"-14" of WC. The 1st regulator from the street has been set a 14"WC if I remember right. We just need to find a 3/4 inch regulator that meets now needs.

We also still need to get a transfer switch

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 23:53:24 EDT
macsierra posted : Nice looking job BTW bassetts. When you first started this thread we thought you were going to suck the existing service inside out with the original 35 KW unit. :D

We normally use an inches water column gauge instead of PSI on gas pressure here. 1/2 pound is about 14" WC. Normally the gas company sets the regulators here at 11" WC.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 18:45:58 EDT
bassetts posted : More pics.

Started installing the gas line to the generator today.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 13:34:08 EDT
bassetts posted : The black pipe is for the 2 fios lines. We ran that out to the street. It is just black water pipe.

There is a 1/2 lbs regulator on the meter also.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:00:28 EDT
cdru posted :
said by garys_2k:
Are your AC condenser lines now running under/through that concrete?

The black line running to the right of the gas meter appears to be a conduit with a few wires running through it. I think the AC lines are over the shoulder to the left of the guy working in pic 2.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:02:02 EDT
jack b posted : Did you install a sub-regulator to limit the pressure to 1/2 pound feeding the existing house gas load?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:47:21 EDT
garys_2k posted : Are your AC condenser lines now running under/through that concrete?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:07:20 EDT
bassetts posted : We ended up not getting the 35 but a 25. We want to power everything in the hose.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 09:52:41 EDT
Jack_in_VA posted : 35 KVA what in the world are you powering? Looks good though.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 01 Jan 2011 09:31:53 EDT
bassetts posted : UPDATE

We have been busy over the last few months.

New 3/4 inch gas line with 2psi meter.

New 6 inch concrete slab.

1000lbs generator moved to its new home = back pain.

Generator bolted down.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:18:40 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :) I would like to share some information with those reading this thread. When it comes to stationary diesel engines the whole certification process is determined by the manufacture of the engine. The manufacture must certify that the engine meets the emission standards for the year and the application the engine is being used for. Prime power generators must meet stricter emission standards than standby generators because prime power generators run continuously. The only way an inspector determines if the engine meets emission standards is by the emission specifications printed on the EPA Certification Label. If you look up diesel generators on ebay you will see many generators being dumped on the export market because they no longer meet US Emission Standards.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:12:20 EDT
Channel One posted :
said by Mr Matt:

A manager at the Gas Company advised me that they used a high pressure distribution system in that subdivision with 50 PSIG to the meter.
Normal natural gas distribution pressures here in South Florida run between 35 to 50 PSI and the service providers seldom have problems supplying gensets, I have seen local grocery stores (Pubilx) with 175KW gensets supplied by natural gas as well as MRI centers with equally sized units.

Wayne
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:12:43 EDT
Msradell posted :
said by zen1 :

you are in Florida, they don't have car inspections there, and certainly no car emissions inspections, so i extremely doubt there is an air resources board in florida!!. it wouldn't make sense, because the first thing THEY would do is require an emissions test for vehicles!!. you can check though, but i extremely doubt one exists there!!.

Not necessarily true! We have a very strict air pollution control board here in Louisville yet several years ago we did away with the vehicle emissions testing program. With all of the changes to new vehicles vehicle inspections were basically becoming pointless. There are many other places more reduction in pollution can be obtained with fewer resources and lower costs.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:38:11 EDT
boogi man posted :
said by zen1 :

said by Mr Matt:

:) wilbilt I agree with your position but was advised by one generator dealer that in some jurisdictions where there is an air resources board that the building inspectors will refer the installation for a review by the air resources board. The important issue is that the EPA emission allowances for diesel engines are being lowered in 2011. The dealer in question had generators available that were Tier 2 certified to 2010 standards. He advised me that in 2011 in some jurisdictions if there is an air resources board they will demand that the emission control system be upgraded to tier 3 which can be expensive or impossible. I am trying to get in touch with a local farm equipment dealer, who in the past was helpful, to determine if 2011 emission control standards will be enforced in this area.

you are in Florida, they don't have car inspections there, and certainly no car emissions inspections, so i extremely doubt there is an air resources board in florida!!. it wouldn't make sense, because the first thing THEY would do is require an emissions test for vehicles!!. you can check though, but i extremely doubt one exists there!!.

we do however as a result of newer cars and much community backlash as well as the fact that the sea breaze combined with flat ground leaves us mostly smog free it was determined that the air quality increase was no longer worth the expense of tail pipe emissions inspections add to that there were only i think 6 cities in florida that had them the program was scrapped. i would like to have seen them keep the safety inspections though as there are many many cars that just shouldnt be on the road.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:02:15 EDT
AVD posted : I guess because in Florida, a gas generator is almost standard equipment.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:40:22 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :hmm: I just learned something about natural gas distribution systems. I was looking at a property that had natural gas appliances. A manager at the Gas Company advised me that they used a high pressure distribution system in that subdivision with 50 PSIG to the meter. I was advised by a Gas Company Representative that different Gas Companies distribute at different pressures. The higher the distribution pressure the easier it is to add appliances without replacing the service drop. The Gas Company represented stated that they can provide antiquate pressure for any size residential generator without increasing the size of the drop.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:12:04 EDT
anon posted :
said by Mr Matt:

:) wilbilt I agree with your position but was advised by one generator dealer that in some jurisdictions where there is an air resources board that the building inspectors will refer the installation for a review by the air resources board. The important issue is that the EPA emission allowances for diesel engines are being lowered in 2011. The dealer in question had generators available that were Tier 2 certified to 2010 standards. He advised me that in 2011 in some jurisdictions if there is an air resources board they will demand that the emission control system be upgraded to tier 3 which can be expensive or impossible. I am trying to get in touch with a local farm equipment dealer, who in the past was helpful, to determine if 2011 emission control standards will be enforced in this area.

you are in Florida, they don't have car inspections there, and certainly no car emissions inspections, so i extremely doubt there is an air resources board in florida!!. it wouldn't make sense, because the first thing THEY would do is require an emissions test for vehicles!!. you can check though, but i extremely doubt one exists there!!.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:48:37 EDT
wilbilt posted :
said by Mr Matt:

:) He advised me that in 2011 in some jurisdictions if there is an air resources board they will demand that the emission control system be upgraded to tier 3 which can be expensive or impossible. I am trying to get in touch with a local farm equipment dealer, who in the past was helpful, to determine if 2011 emission control standards will be enforced in this area.

I work for a school district, and recently heard we are pursuing grant funding to retrofit the older school buses to conform to the upcoming requirements. It is a very expensive proposition as I understand.

Since we have vapor recovery systems and catalytic converters on lawnmowers here, I guess I shouldn't be surprised it would apply to generators as well.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:51:19 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :) wilbilt I agree with your position but was advised by one generator dealer that in some jurisdictions where there is an air resources board that the building inspectors will refer the installation for a review by the air resources board. The important issue is that the EPA emission allowances for diesel engines are being lowered in 2011. The dealer in question had generators available that were Tier 2 certified to 2010 standards. He advised me that in 2011 in some jurisdictions if there is an air resources board they will demand that the emission control system be upgraded to tier 3 which can be expensive or impossible. I am trying to get in touch with a local farm equipment dealer, who in the past was helpful, to determine if 2011 emission control standards will be enforced in this area.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:28:48 EDT
bassetts posted : We did call but not everyone at the gas company knows what they are talking about. One person we talked to said we would be fine. It was not tell we told them all of the other load before we found out we would be short. So we can run the generator and nothing else or upgrade the line to 3/4 inch. As we have gas heat and gas hot water that is a deal breaker. A order has been places to upgrade the line. Now we wait.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:54:09 EDT
wilbilt posted :
said by Mr Matt:

:( Regarding emissions:
Wilbilt, unfortunately any inspector from the building department can ask any questions that they want about an installation. If the device installed has a condensate drain like an Air Conditioner the electrical inspector can demand a plumbing inspector inspect the installation before signing off. I have been assured that in the majority of generator installations there are no issues related to exhaust emissions as long as there is an EPA certification label on the engine. If the local area has a air resources board the inspector might check that the EPA certification for the engine meets current EPA standards.

I can understand the electrical inspector handing off a plumbing or framing issue to another inspector. It just seems odd he would be expected to verify EPA certification, as it would seem to be out of the scope of his job description.

I suppose if the entire genset including the power plant is considered "electrical equipment" it might make sense to at least document the certification label, or perhaps pass it on to the local AQMD to verify compliance. I have never heard of that requirement here - and this is California of all places.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:20:24 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :( Regarding emissions:
Wilbilt, unfortunately any inspector from the building department can ask any questions that they want about an installation. If the device installed has a condensate drain like an Air Conditioner the electrical inspector can demand a plumbing inspector inspect the installation before signing off. I have been assured that in the majority of generator installations there are no issues related to exhaust emissions as long as there is an EPA certification label on the engine. If the local area has a air resources board the inspector might check that the EPA certification for the engine meets current EPA standards.

Regarding Sales Tax Payments:
I tried to find a link to an article describing this situation. One municipality used the building inspection process to force homeowners to pay sales tax on equipment that they purchased from a third party. When the homeowner applied for a permit and had the building department inspect the installation the building department demanded that they prove they paid sales tax on the equipment before signing off on the installation.

A homeowner purchased a brand new natural gas pool heater still in the box, for their home, from another homeowner. In order to get the gas company to hook it up they had to get a permit from the city and hire a licensed installer. Before the building inspector would sign off, he demanded a copy of their receipt for the heater. Their receipt was a note from the seller that they had paid for the heater. The city demanded that they pay the sales tax on the full value of the heater because they did not have a receipt showing that they paid sales tax and it might have been purchased from an out of state dealer. Although they were able to get an original receipt from the seller, they still had trouble because the city still wanted to collect sales tax on what they paid the seller for the heater.

Has anyone reading this thread experienced this problem after installing a generator purchased from an out of state dealer? I am talking about the case where the homeowner purchases the generator out of state, has it delivered, and then hires an electrician to hook it up. The building department then demands proof of payment of sales tax before signing off on the electrical inspection.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 11 Oct 2010 03:49:35 EDT
TA63 posted : "cut sheets" = product information sheets (presumably)
»www.proz.com/kudoz/english/tech_···eet.html

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:39:23 EDT
nunya posted : When I install a standby unit, the city always asks for cut-sheets before they'll approve the permit.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:24:31 EDT
wilbilt posted :
said by Mr Matt:

...A generator might not pass inspection where the electrical inspector checks for a up to date EPA certification for the engine before signing off...

Are electrical inspectors now liable for checking emissions certifications? Would not this detail be better suited to some sort of air quality official?

Maybe I am just confused. :huh:
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:51:47 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :( bassetts, I learned a lot about the thought process of the fuel suppliers recently. When I asked the representative from the local propane supplier, an alternative to paying $4,000.00 to install a 500 Gallon underground tank, the representative stated that I could lease a 250 Gallon tank. In order to lease a tank, I would have to install at the minimum, a propane hot water heater in order to use enough fuel to justify the cost to the company of providing the leased propane tank. The company found that a generator does not use enough fuel to make economic sense to lease a 250 gallon tank for about $100.00 per year.

The actual cost to install a leased 250 gallon tank would be about $1,900.00 plus $800.00 to install the hot water heater. I would save the $2,100.00 cost for and installation of the 500 Gallon Propane Buried Tank since I would not be paying the up front cost for the tank and its installation.

I reviewed the cost for a Diesel Generator instead of a propane fueled generator. I found that they made more sense if the purchaser did not already have propane or natural gas already installed in their home or business. I discovered that some manufactures would include up to a 100 Gallon Fuel tank in the cost of their product. The cost for a 30KW Diesel Generator ranged from $6,500.00 to $12,000.00 delivered. The cost of a liquid cooled 30KW Natural Gas or Propane Generator was about the same.

The one problem with installing a Diesel Generator is that the EPA is lowering the emission allowances for Diesel Engines and there will be a significant reduction in 2011. Fortunately standby/backup generators are allowed higher emission levels because the EPA realizes that they will be used infrequently. The EPA also agreed not to require certain emission control devices be installed because they are not effective if the engine is not operated until it is fully warmed up. This EPA change makes it necessary for anyone purchasing a Diesel Standby Generator to be absolutely certain that it meets all EPA requirements before placing an order. A generator might not pass inspection where the electrical inspector checks for a up to date EPA certification for the engine before signing off.

I believe the reason bassetts local gas company is unwilling to replace the line with one of higher capacity is because a generator will not consume enough additional fuel annually to justify the cost of the replacement gas line. The only way they will replace the line is if he pays the actual cost for the upgrade.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 11:34:39 EDT
nunya posted : You mean to say despite the recommendations, you didn't call the gas company before pulling the trigger?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:45:52 EDT
anon posted : utilities on service upgrades tend to go overboard (your paying the bill). you might consider hiring a PE familiar with natural gas to assess your existing service and what you will need to run generator under load. whoever gave you upgrade estimate may be able to give you a name and phone number? what was your house total btu per hour estimate?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 08:59:37 EDT
bassetts posted : Well it turns out like some have said we do need the gas line from the street upgraded for us to be able to run the generator. The gas company want $3,400 for a new gas line from the street. It is only 70ft from the street.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 09 Oct 2010 07:46:32 EDT
Speedy Petey posted :
said by bassetts:

More news about the install.

After going back and forth with the gas company and others we have to get a bigger meter that can provide 2psi. Gas company wants $400 for that.

Then they went on to say that the half inch pipe from the street also will likely be to small of a size to feed generator,water heater and heat all at the same time (running). No cost at this time to upgrade that.

Plumber and Electrician want $3400 to hook up gas line and transfer switch.

But just thik of how much your saved by buying this HUGE unit used!!
HAHAHAHAHA!

Remember what you stated earlier. You you just HAVE to be able to run everything. Right?
HAHAHAHA!

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Mon, 04 Oct 2010 19:40:01 EDT
horsemouth posted :
said by Msradell:

I'm assuming that the new EPA requirements only apply to diesels?

This may clear up some of your questions.
»www.csemag.com/single-article/ti···f8f.html

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:37:52 EDT
whizkid3 posted : I am talking about new installations of diesel engine generators. As far as any other types, (propane, natural gas, gasoline), I would have to check it out. I don't know.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:26:46 EDT
Msradell posted : I'm assuming that the new EPA requirements only apply to diesels?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:24:11 EDT
whizkid3 posted : Also bear in mind, that the EPA requirements take a major step up as of December 31st, 2010. Any generator manufactured after that date must meet the new requirements for any new installations. I have spoken with a number of major generator manufacturers, that have told me they will not models that meet the new requirements after that date and are still working on it. They will continue to manufacture their older generators - and sell them to any dealer that wants to buy them - although their primary reason for doing so is for export. The manufacturers are hoping for an extension, which is entirely possible. However, if there is no extension, then any generator manufactured after that date, is worthless for use in the USA, and anyone operating them - including unknowledgeable homeowners - can be subject to very large fines, and be stuck with a used generator that will be extremely hard to sell.

If you do buy a new genset manufactured prior to December 31, 2010; then you can feel free to use it, as you will not have to meet the upgraded EPA requirements. However, there will be plenty of used generators for sale at bargain prices. This is because they are not allowed to be used for new installations after Dec. 31st. Essentially, they are worthless in the USA.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:59:06 EDT
Mr Matt posted : :) I would like to thank all of you that posted to this thread regarding Diesel Generators. Particularly nunya and macsierra. I would like to share with you some important facts that I have learned.

1) When purchasing a generator regardless of fuel type be certain that the generator head (Alternator) is a Single Phase 120/240 Volt unit rated for the listed capacity of the generator. There are some unscrupulous dealers that are selling generators with three phase alternators, as single phase generators, without derating them. Do not accept a generator with a three phase twelve lead generator head for a single phase application. They have to be derated by 1/3rd of their rated capacity because in a single phase application only two of the three (phase) windings are used. A 30KW three phase generator head must be derated to 20KW for single phase applications.

2) A normally aspirated diesel engine was recommended by one mechanic for applications such as those used in back up generators, that are not used continuously. The mechanic commented that turbochargers are costly to replace and the slight increase in fuel economy they offer will be offset by any necessary repairs to the turbocharger over the life of the engine.

3) Not only is the fuel cost for a propane fueled generator high the installation cost for a propane tank is also high. I was quoted by a local propane supplier of over $4,000.00 hook up a fuel line to the generator and to install a buried 500 Gallon Propane Tank which by the way can only be filled to 80% of capacity or 400 Gallons.

4) When purchasing any product with a Diesel Engine it is important to determine that the engine has been EPA certified for the application. Anyone purchasing a Diesel Engine that has not been EPA approved may have to retrofit the engine to meet current EPA standards, at great expense. There are some unscrupulous dealers that are selling diesel powered products including generators, in the United States, that are intended for export only and not EPA approved for sale in the United States.

5) To eliminate wet stacking a diesel engine must be operated for a long enough period or with a sufficient load to allow the combustion chamber to reach a high enough temperature to burn off all unburned fuel.

Please let me know if I have received any incorrect information through my inquiries.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:06:45 EDT
macsierra posted :
said by TA63:

Experts in the field all agree the newer electronic diesels are cleaner than natural gas or gasoline motors hands down.
Is that really a justifiable position?

It's justifiable if the TDI 2.0 diesel has a zero NOx and zero PM emissions and that has been observed by Argonne Nat Lab.

It's also justifiable if the TDI diesel has passed CARB 2011 which many gasoline motors can't.

We need to take this over to Automotive as this has gone past the generator topic...
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sun, 26 Sep 2010 03:32:08 EDT
TA63 posted :
said by macsierra:

CARB exceeds EPA standards by miles..
Another blanket statement where hyperbole trumps fact.

Some parts of CARB standards are more severe than some parts of EPA standards.

Note that my posts referenced both EPA and CARB standards.

The main thing to note here is that the Diesel is only CARB certified as LEV, while the gasoline engines are certified as ULEV and SULEV.

said by macsierra:

That chart you posted is pre 2009 EPA TDI test results. VW TDI made CARB 2011 complaint standard last year. But, nice try anyway.

That is not what it is.
Please read. The table is a list of standards for any model/mfr. It is not a list of test results.
Note that it is labeled as a list of standards.

The top graphic is what Volkswagen is certifying the vehicles for. Current production vehicles.

It is an apples to apples comparison with context, hard facts and links to back it up.

Please understand the difference between a test of a vehicle, and what it is certified to. Any vehicle may test out at zeros, but that does not mean it is certified to do so.

Your assertion (requoted below) is what I objected to.
said by macsierra:

Experts in the field all agree the newer electronic diesels are cleaner than natural gas or gasoline motors hands down.
Is that really a justifiable position?
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 23:33:30 EDT
macsierra posted :
said by whizkid3:

said by macsierra:

But for the average person that reads the article... They would NEVER get near a diesel again.. That was what really pissed me off about the article..
Well, its in CSE - Consulting & Specifying Engineer magazine. Its a trade magazine for MEP engineers in the building construction in industry. The point of the article is to explain wet-stacking in large stationary emergency diesel engine generators. Not something that the average person is likely to read.

Yes, valid point whiz, but Mr Matt found it and posted it here..

It's kinda like some electrical stuff you've seen posted here and,,, kinda didn't like it.. :D
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 23:14:15 EDT
macsierra posted :
said by TA63:

said by macsierra:

Now show me a chart comparing NOx, HC and CO as I stated with the 2009 2.0 TDI. I'm waiting...

No need to wait.

The top graphic shows what Volkswagen/EPA certifies the vehicles to. Left is Gasoline, Center is Diesel.

The second shows EPA numbers associated with those certifications.

The third is a Gasoline powered Volkswagen that meets tougher emissions rules than the direct comparison shown in the first graphic.

The EPA standards (Bin5, Bin3, etc.) include NOx, HC and CO.
Please refer to the second graphic.

Still waiting for some valid results....

I'm talking 2009 VW 2.0 TDI CARB test results. CARB exceeds EPA standards by miles..

That chart you posted is pre 2009 EPA TDI test results. VW TDI made CARB 2011 complaint standard last year. But, nice try anyway.

I prefer Argonne National Laboratory testing. Check out the CleanMPG.com. Here's an excerpt from CleanMPG.com:

TDI---- 0 NOx and 0 PM emissions

"...The Hybrid Drive generates significantly less NOx and zero particulate emissions compared to an equivalent diesel engine vehicle according to Toyota but after a conversation with some of the Argonnel Lab boys a month ago, the new Jetta TDI was emitting essentially 0 NOx and PM emissions as well. In fact, it was doing so well, the National lab had to budget in the most advanced exhaust emissions HW they could find to even measure an output! Lexus, you may have to keep the 0 NOx and 0 PM emissions to yourself as the latest diesel drivetrains out of Europe are offering far better performance with a similar emissions profileÉ"

Argonne Nat Lab;

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonne_Na···ratories
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:58:13 EDT
whizkid3 posted :
said by macsierra:

But for the average person that reads the article... They would NEVER get near a diesel again.. That was what really pissed me off about the article..
Well, its in CSE - Consulting & Specifying Engineer magazine. Its a trade magazine for MEP engineers in the building construction in industry. The point of the article is to explain wet-stacking in large stationary emergency diesel engine generators. Not something that the average person is likely to read.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:50:35 EDT
TA63 posted :
said by macsierra:

Now show me a chart comparing NOx, HC and CO as I stated with the 2009 2.0 TDI. I'm waiting...

No need to wait.

The top graphic shows what Volkswagen/EPA certifies the vehicles to. Left is Gasoline, Center is Diesel.

The second shows EPA numbers associated with those certifications.

The third is a Gasoline powered Volkswagen that meets tougher emissions rules than the direct comparison shown in the first graphic.

The EPA standards (Bin5, Bin3, etc.) include NOx, HC and CO.
Please refer to the second graphic.
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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:10:12 EDT
macsierra posted :
said by TA63:

You have posted boosterism rubbish.

I'll try to be polite but your above statement describes your posted comparison charts to a tee..

What the charts show is just other nonsense and are sophistry. Now show me a chart comparing NOx, HC and CO as I stated with the 2009 2.0 TDI. I'm waiting...

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:04:25 EDT
TA63 posted : Apologies for the OT.

You have posted boosterism rubbish.
I never said that vehicle was bad, or that Diesel is evil.

I merely said it is not better than gasoline engines. Please refer to the following.

The following examples are all Volkswagen (for simplicity - other manufacturers also make vehicles that meet emissions standards)

[att=1]
Above is from a Volkswagen page. Both are Bin5 certified. Note that the gasoline vehicle has one additional certification (California PZEV) that the Diesel does not.
»www.vw.com/jetta/completespecs/e···ineering

[att=2]
Above is an EPA table that shows the emissions certification grading. Bin1 is toughest. (These are all TierII. Tier 1 is ancient history by comparison)
»www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light···stds.htm
It puts the lie to your statement about increasing emissions from gasoline vehicles.

[att=3]
Above are the specs from a gasoline engined 2010 Volkswagen that meets Bin3 certifications. These are tougher regs than those that the Diesel meets.
»www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/epalink?logn···_R00.PDF

[att=4]
This table shows the relative "difficulties" or level of emissions related to the different emissions certifications.
Note how much easier things have been in Europe.
»www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=we···&cad=rja
--
The talented hawk speaks French.

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:58:55 EDT
macsierra posted : No, not at all. But wet stacking is a result of a malfunction in the motor, be it gasoline or diesel and even when fueled by NG or propane vapor.

In the very end of the article Matt posted the author actually says that same thing about proper engine set up as kind of a disclaimer.

Regard to load, I can run my Hatz diesel at idle for weeks on end with absolutely no exhaust pipe wetness. The advance in injection timing at idle cleans up the burn so much that unburned fuel is non-existant.

But for the average person that reads the article... They would NEVER get near a diesel again.. That was what really pissed me off about the article..

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Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:51:48 EDT
whizkid3 posted :
said by macsierra:

Emissions via wet stacking on diesel generators was brought up by you I believe whiz.
Not sure. Its been so long. :)

Correct me if I am wrong - you believe that wet stacking is a fallacy in properly maintained gensets, even if run without load?

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:39:12 EDT
macsierra posted :
said by whizkid3:

Well, this thread is not about cars, trains, earth-movers, etc.

The goal here is stationary standby diesel engine emergency generators.

While there are EPA requirements - especially newer ones - the emissions rules for cars, etc - have no bearing on off-road, emergency use generators.

Emissions via wet stacking on diesel generators was brought up by you I believe whiz.. :D

Emissions rules for cars/truck are being mandated for off road equipment as we speak per CARB.. That also means generators..

Now you want to change back after I backed up what I said.. OK, lets get back to generators and not the motors as that's more in your field..
--
Early 2009 Mac Pro 10.6.4 Charter 10 meg Windows 7 & Mac OSX working simultaneously with VMware Fusion 3.0.1
My old job now my Son's- »gallery.me.com/paultahoe#100031

Elect anyone BUTT Harry Reid!

Re: 35 KVA Natural Gas Generator install

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:30:11 EDT
whizkid3 posted : Well, this thread is not about cars, trains, earth-movers, etc.

The goal here is stationary standby diesel engine emergency generators.

While there are EPA requirements - especially newer ones - the emissions rules for cars, etc - have no bearing on off-road, emergency use generators.