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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by Matt:Electricity is much cheaper to generate than gasoline and produces less emissions. Zero emissions means from the car. Not to mention removing our dependence on foreign oil. Uh, you do know that nearly 70% of our electricity comes from those "nasty, icky" fossil fuels, right? Anyone who plugs a car into an outlet is contributing MORE to pollution than by driving a conventional econobox.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008_···e_v2.png
And since most environuts are opposed to any new electrical generation or expansion of the electrical grid, how are people supposed to power this thing if everyone decides to buy one of these things, with magic?
Electrical cars are a joke. Anyone who had a PowerWheels as a kid would tell you that. If you really want to save the planet, do what I do and buy a high-mpg compact car.
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|  cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA
1 edit | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by pnh102:said by Matt:Electricity is much cheaper to generate than gasoline and produces less emissions. Zero emissions means from the car. Not to mention removing our dependence on foreign oil. Uh, you do know that nearly 70% of our electricity comes from those "nasty, icky" fossil fuels, right? Anyone who plugs a car into an outlet is contributing MORE to pollution than by driving a conventional econobox. Depends on where you live. The July issue of Scientific American has an article breaking down the tradeoffs with respect to carbon emissions for all-electric and plug-in hybrids in various regions of the country. In areas such as the East that generate a lot of their electricity from coal, all-electrics and plug-in hybrids indeed result in a net increase in carbon emissions over a non-plugin hybrid. In the West, where most of the electricity comes from natural gas, the opposite is true: there is a net decrease in carbon emission for electrics and plug-in hybrids. See »www.scientificamerican.com/artic···-hybrids | |
| | | | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by cghh:said by pnh102:said by Matt:Electricity is much cheaper to generate than gasoline and produces less emissions. Zero emissions means from the car. Not to mention removing our dependence on foreign oil. Uh, you do know that nearly 70% of our electricity comes from those "nasty, icky" fossil fuels, right? Anyone who plugs a car into an outlet is contributing MORE to pollution than by driving a conventional econobox. Depends on where you live. The July issue of Scientific American has an article breaking down the tradeoffs with respect to carbon emissions for all-electric and plug-in hybrids in various regions of the country. In areas such as the East that generate a lot of their electricity from coal, all-electrics and plug-in hybrids indeed result in a net increase in carbon emissions over a non-plugin hybrid. In the West, where most of the electricity comes from natural gas, the opposite is true: there is a net decrease in carbon emission for electrics and plug-in hybrids. See » www.scientificamerican.com/artic···-hybrids I read the Scientific American article and what they call pollution is carbon dioxide. So in heavy coal using states there will be more carbon dioxide produced than if the car ran on pure gasoline. And that is only true if non-coal electric plants aren't built to handle the extra demand of electric vehicles.
But I don't buy the nonsense put out by the EPA that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
If you ignore that, then a plug-in or pure electric vehicle is less polluting than a pure gasoline vehicle.
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| | | | Incorrect. We have 3 mile island and limerick, and several others, a few hydro stations and a few natural gas and oil burning units as well as the coal units in PA and NJ.
Also, it should be noted that while petro-fuels (not CNG/LNG) burned by automobiles and trucks are quite polluting and hugely inefficient, even slightly larger implementations of this in the diesel electric locomotive actually produces fewer emissions and soot than the average truck due to greater operating temperatures and pressures resulting in far more complete combustion.
Scaled down to a smudge pot sized level, yes diesel, heavy oil & coal will produce large amounts of soot and incompletely combusted byproducts, but scale it up to the power plant size, and your main concern is going to be carbon dioxide, not soot and not incompletely combusted byproducts, because the temperatures are much higher in a much much larger area.
People confuse the coal of steam locomotives in eras past with the talc-like powder they crush coal into today, the coal is ground up once, shipped, then at the plant it's pulverized into a very fine dust to allow for more complete combustion and minimal remains. The real demons of coal power is the toxification of ground water\ecological disruption of the physical mining process, and the massive coal slurry reservoirs tucked away all over the countryside far from the public eye that poison watersheds with wells and give locals cancer, and every once in a while one of these slurry lakes dislodges sending toxic goop roaring down without warning taking man tree & beast alike with it, rendering the area useless for anything but superfund listing.
Hydrogen sounds nice, but it is very inefficient to concentrate in the amount we'd need. Talk of fuel cells for automobiles is simply auto makers trying to sound like they are remotely attempting to stop using gasoline. The only real hydrogen solution is combustion and that won't work for reasons stated above.
What we really need to focus on in this country is what i like to call "PV everywhere". Germany has long stretches of PV arrays along highways and on building rooftops... We should be mounting these panels on lattice towers, building rooftops, noise barriers, on automobile, train & bus roofs, on sides of skyscrapers, on lamp posts & traffic light stanchions, bridges and train stations.
I think wind should also play a larger role, with easy to maintain turbines of all types and sizes...
Why not put the PV panels mounted on the backs of wind turbine nacelles, so even no wind you're still pulling current from a clean source.
In any case, the PRR electrified rail lines (DC-PHL-HBG-NYC) are fed by a hydroelectric dam, so i just ride the train, no automobile. They sometimes have power outlets in them depending on what train you're using.
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IGGYNo Guru Just Here To HelpPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-30
Chatham, IL | Actually both DaveDude  & pnh102 should both do a bit more reading before spouting off. The last user I mentioned would then note that their is much debate depending on who paid for the research in regards to the amount of pollution produced - car versus power plant.
The general conclusion is that if a good majority of fossil fuel terrorist supporting gasoline ICE engines were taken off the road it would be better for the overall health of people and the planet.
While power plants use some nasty items to produce power. The emissions are controlled at a great rate. In the end more garbage comes out the tailpipe than the power stack.
Granted coal, nuclear & natural gas plants all have some very nasty byproducts leftover after the power has been produced. Not to mention the overall impact of mining or drilling.
It's interesting that most people forget early adopters normally have more money than most of us. Many current electric car owners power their vehicles using wind or solar at home and work.
I also find it funny how these macho ICE head types still can't understand the fact that a properly designed electric car will smoke a car running a combustion engine off the line any day of the week.
You are aware that a Tesla Roadster does a 3.7 second 0 to 60 time right? That puts Tesla in the very top rankings. Only a handful of super cars rank at that level or higher.
I can tell you once you take a ride in one you'll wonder why your gearhead loving backside every doubted the power of electric. Basic science tells you that an electric engine is more efficient. So you get more performance for the energy being used.
The continued ranting and raving against change is exactly why this country is heading for the gutter. I'm actually biting my tongue not to get really abusive and make personal attacks. From what I've seen over the years it is a waste of my time to even try to get most of you to open your eyes to get a clue.
For supposedly educated people I didn't come across any of you using your brains to argue why electric cars might really be dirty. From what I see all of you just used the same boring old arguments that have been held everywhere else.
If you would do more reading than ranting you would know most of your negative comments have been disproven time and again. To bad most of you will remain to close minded to see that.
Most of the lame comments made here are exactly the reason the United States is getting it's butt kicked in regards to new technology. Everyone cries about wanting jobs yet don't want to embrace the new technologies that bring those paychecks.
The reason China and Germany are outperforming us in regards to manufacturing is the fact that those countries have embraced newer technologies and the companies that produce them. While America sits on it's ass & has silly debates while b-tching and moaning about the need for new jobs.
Honestly I really wish more people would start sucking on those tailpipes they seem to love so much. Might thin the herd a bit.
For the haters why not take a look at real Americans who instead of whining and debating got off their backsides and put their money where their mouth is. $120,000 plus to be exact.
Tranny knocks out Illuminati Motor Works
»iggyz.com/?p=11653
It's just to damn bad that this type of spirit is long gone for most who live in the USA. That car looks fairly normal built by Americans who feel you have to lead by example.
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| | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: i dont see how it will sell The source I cite comes to Wiki through the Department of Energy. The fact is plugging in creates more demand for fossil fuel driven power. It is also indisputable that it is beyond impossible for cheap power production to expand in the US because of pressure from environmentalists. You can build all the wind and solar plants you want but the costs of the power produced from these sources is much more expensive than coal, natural gas or nuclear power. On top of that, how will solar cells create power at night when these vehicles need to charge? How will wind turbines create power when the wind doesn't blow?
So again. Without extra power available, where are these cars going to get their juice?
You point out how "well designed electric cars" "smoke" a conventional car you fail to point out that if these cars were so good, why are massive government subsidies and tax breaks needed in order to give companies incentives to produce them and people to buy them? Why can't they stand on their own merits?
And if you're going to talk about Tesla, their cheapest offerings are well over $100k. That is far beyond the reach of any price-conscious consumer who is looking to save a buck. Even their sedan offering, the Model S, is going to cost at least $50K. If I could spend that kind of money on a car, why would I care about saving money on gasoline?
The Chevy Volt is going to run $41K and the Nissan Leaf is going to cost $32K. You can already get a high mpg econobox for well under $20K these days.
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| Re: i dont see how it will sell you must not know anything about wind power do you? There is always some wind blowing. Why on earth do you think that the wind mills are put up at a certain height for? Just to do something? Also you must not have heard about the RoadSide Wind Turbines either that would work for this method.
Also it is not expensive to build solar and wind farms its the fact that the energy companies don't want to do it and will do anything they can to keep it out.
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| | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by hottboiinnc:you must not know anything about wind power do you? There is always some wind blowing. Even in the windiest of places the wind doesn't blow all the time, and even when the wind does blow, it doesn't blow at the same speed constantly. This is just a simple fact of weather. Even if it did, most people do not live in such places. How is the power from the windy areas supposed to get to the non windy ones? Do you really expect power to travel thousands of miles without having a significant amount of it being lost to resistance? Compound this with the fact that our electrical grid barely meets our energy needs right now. Who's going to pay for all the costs needed to make these use of these magical wind turbines?
Then there's the land factor. Simple physics tells you that you need a large number of wind turbines to generate any usable amount of power. The average wind turbine produces at best 5MW to 8MW. The average coal power plant generates around 500MW or more. The land area of 100 or more wind turbines far exceeds that of the land area needed to run a coal power plant.
This is one of the major benefits of conventional power generation. You can put a coal, natural gas or other type of power plant closer to where it is needed.
said by hottboiinnc:Also it is not expensive to build solar and wind farms its the fact that the energy companies don't want to do it and will do anything they can to keep it out. If this was the case then why aren't these same power companies investing in wind power? If the costs are so low and the return so great wouldn't they be putting up wind turbines right and left even if they were squeezing out the competition, just so they could get all the profits for themselves? If any of what you claim is true, power companies should be closing down conventional power plants right and left and be replacing them with wind turbines, just to cash in on the game.
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| | | | |  koolman2Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK | Re: i dont see how it will sell What power plants would need to do is have some way to store the energy. Hydrogen comes to mind, but has its issues to work out.
Basically, you can build a solar grid at the average use instead of the peak use. Any energy needed beyond that is generated by burning hydrogen, which was generated on off-peak times when the use was low. This would also solve the night-time power generation issue. Larger storage plants would be useful for locations far North or South where the days become very long and very short during Summer and Winter.
Lots of work to do, yes, but I think we might be closer to solving the energy crisis than we think. Now if we could get that released water vapor to condense before it hits the atmosphere... | |
| | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by koolman2:Lots of work to do, yes, but I think we might be closer to solving the energy crisis than we think. Now if we could get that released water vapor to condense before it hits the atmosphere... Or we can just build a ton of nuclear power plants to provide us with all of the energy we need. The technology is proven, reliable and scalable.
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| | | | | | | koolman2Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by pnh102:Or we can just build a ton of nuclear power plants to provide us with all of the energy we need. The technology is proven, reliable and scalable. I would be down with that. | |
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| you must not have read why i said the power companies don't want the wind power. they can't charge all fees they do now. Plus as far as cost; the feds and states pay for you to build these machines.
but you should know that already. And yes wind does blow all the time. Weather you feel it or not it does blow.
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| | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: i dont see how it will sell said by hottboiinnc:you must not have read why i said the power companies don't want the wind power. they can't charge all fees they do now. Plus as far as cost; the feds and states pay for you to build these machines. That makes no financial sense. You said that wind and solar power have low costs and tons of return. If you're a power company why wouldn't you want to invest in these "sure things?" As for charging fees, what makes you think they wouldn't charge the same or more fees if the power was coming from wind or solar.
said by hottboiinnc:but you should know that already. And yes wind does blow all the time. Weather you feel it or not it does blow. If I don't feel the wind blowing, then for sure that non-blowing wind won't be able to turn a turbine.
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|  herb77
join:2005-02-23
Fort Myers, FL | Bravo Bravo.
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