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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to tracker79

Re: The Government Can Use GPS to Track Your Moves

said by tracker79 :

@ Link Logger

I agree. A high level target would most likely get the good stuff. But then since most of us don't work for one of these agencies, who can be certain what devices and frequencies they're are using. With their budget, I wouldn't rule anything out.
With their budget you can actually rule out a lot of stuff, as they are not swimming in cash like some people think. Sure they have their high end R&D, but they aren't going to use it for low end domestic purposes. I'm far more concerned (which is like saying I'm far more concerned about getting hit by a piece of Martian rock then rock from Pluto) about some goofy whacked out stalker sticking one of these on my car »www.brickhousesecurity.com/gps-c···ing.html then I am about any security agency doing squat about me. I guess that just the way I roll, in that I believe that my or any other government isn't really all that concerned about me or what I do, so I don't lose any sleep worrying about it and if they did take an interest in me, they would find out pretty quick that there is nothing interesting about me, that they don't already know.

said by tracker79 :

But what makes you think you could find one of their devices even if it was right in front of your face? Do you know what they might look like? Are you so certain you would be able to identify it? What if it was hidden inside of something else?
Again lets consider active, non active devices, either way there is a signal involved, coming in or going out, or the old fashion way where you just retrieve the device with the data in it. Consider frequency, power, antenna requirements, etc, really none of this stuff is magic, its all physics and can be detected.

said by tracker79 :

Are you constantly checking the undercarriage of your vehicle or other areas on or in your vehicle for GPS devices that can be smaller than a cigarette lighter (or perhaps even smaller)? Do most people do a daily morning sweep of the full RF spectrum before their morning coffee and continuously through out the day thereafter? So how would you or anyone else ever know if they were or weren't being tracked?
If I had reason to, I would, but I don't, so I don't. So if you were playing, then this is part of the game and I wouldn't make it so easy that you could jump my fence and place it on my car without detection (and I just might let you do that and then use that car for shopping trips period, such that it spent a lot of time just sitting at the shopping mall, while I used another 'random' car for whatever, again assumptions are for other people, you assume that I'm using my car for whatever, so you see I might want you to track me as part of my cover showing that I'm just an average citizen who likes to go out).

said by tracker79 :

But then, so what if the GPS or other spy device was found anyway? The three letter agency responsible would simply sweep in a take it from you. Case closed. You would probably never even know what it was, let alone what frequencies it operated on or how high tech it was.

What it comes down to is most people have no way of knowing what a Gov agency is using or how to detect it. Anything else is just speculation. Sure you could assume the agency was using commonly available tech that can be had by anyone, and easily detected or found, but how do you know for sure?
If I found something you think I'd call them up and ask them to come over pick it up (how would they know if I found it)? Heck no I would to use it for counter intelligence or something to my benefit.

First they are not going to waste hi-tech hardware to randomly track someone, sorry, remember that budget thing, you would be surprised how limiting that can be.

Two if your worth hi-tech, your likely a active player in the game so you know the game and take the counter steps. You will note that the CIA, NSA, FBI, FDA (insert 3 letter agency of your choice here etc), isn't making a major bust everyday despite all this apparent high tech as the other side is similarly equipped, crap they still haven't found that old ignorant cripple Bin Laden, so high tech must not be a slam dunk in this business.

Three go ahead tag my car with a GPS, you will find out pretty quick I'm pretty darn boring anymore and if you can stay awake following my life, let me know how you did it. This morning I drove my daughter to work and since then the car hasn't moved. I might go and get some milk later tonight at Coop, so if that is the stuff that security agencies are interested in, I guess they got me.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to tracker79
said by tracker79 :

Are you constantly checking the undercarriage of your vehicle or other areas on or in your vehicle for GPS devices that can be smaller than a cigarette lighter (or perhaps even smaller)? Do most people do a daily morning sweep of the full RF spectrum before their morning coffee and continuously through out the day thereafter? So how would you or anyone else ever know if they were or weren't being tracked?
If one was involved in something that necessitated that level of surveillance than it would be natural you or those you hire would do so. Or not and be out of business.


THZNDUP
Deorum Offensa Diis Curae
Premium
join:2003-09-18
Lard
kudos:2
reply to Link Logger
Would that milk be in a bag by chance?

Don't give me that 'we only have jugs or cartons in Alberta' story, we know you've got a source. Just a matter of time......


--
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
said by THZNDUP:

Would that milk be in a bag by chance?

Don't give me that 'we only have jugs or cartons in Alberta' story, we know you've got a source. Just a matter of time......


Just for you I'll ask them to put it in a plastic bag tonight, even if it goes against my tree hugger norm of bringing my own bags when needed, or just using the handle that is on the plastic jug.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


THZNDUP
Deorum Offensa Diis Curae
Premium
join:2003-09-18
Lard
kudos:2
Arrrrggh........ these kinds of milk bags.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Pretty much just jugs here now, and worth $ for recycling »alberta.ca/home/NewsFrame.cfm?Re···38C.html

Now if they built micro GPS's into milk jugs, that would be evil, as they could see if I was recycling or not as I might lose my Dr. David Suzuki tree hugger award as sometimes I don't recycle my milk jugs having found other uses for them around the house like bird feeders etc.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
kudos:1
reply to marigolds
You brought back some memories when you mentioned LORAN. I learned how to do some navigation (aircraft) with LORAN, back in the day (late 60's).


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1
reply to SUMware
Gee, I see the story has now hit CNN. »www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/27/ore···l?hpt=T1
--
Regards,
Joseph V. Morris


brydry
...it's meat-cake

join:2004-12-05
Safety Harbor, FL

4 edits
I don't live a lifestyle that would lead to gov't agents suspecting me of anything that would give them a reason for them to track me. So, I'm not worried. If they did or are tracking me, they would see what a boring individual I am and that perhaps they are wasting their time.

Forgot to include this:
»www.brighthub.com/electronics/gp···608.aspx Are GPS Signal Jammers Legal?
More info: »gizmodo.com/5622807/how-to-stop-···location
--
Go Pats!


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1

4 recommendations

I fear you seriously fail to comprehend how this process works. The more "lily white" (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course) your file may be be (and yes, there's bound to be a file), the more convinced "these people" will come to believe there is something about you that they simply have not yet discovered. Indeed, that's exactly the profile they would expect of a deep cover agent for some foreign power. Consequently, the more innocent you appear, the more you actually attract their attention!

I would seriously recommend you do something to put some blotches in your file -- get arrested for driving 10mph over the posted speed limit, running a red light, failing to stop at a stop sign. Encourage rumors that you cheat on your spouse (preferably with a member of your sex), have a gambling or drinking problem, are seriously indebted with no prospects of avoid bankruptcy. Now, that's the new 'normal' and will lead them to immediately write you off, so that you don't become a target.

If you don't understand what I'm trying to tell you here, it's time for you to read (or re-read) "Catch 22".
--
Regards,
Joseph V. Morris

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to brydry
said by brydry:

I don't live a lifestyle that would lead to gov't agents suspecting me of anything that would give them a reason for them to track me. So, I'm not worried. If they did or are tracking me, they would see what a boring individual I am and that perhaps they are wasting their time.
Fisrt of all, may be they know something about you that you don't know. They're authorities for god sake and they always know better... And second, they are never wasting their time. They justify new spending budget increase for the next year. Remember, it's a bureaucracy and it needs to expand itself, indefinitely...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

cmaenginsb1
Premium
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

1 recommendation

reply to jvmorris
said by jvmorris:

I fear you seriously fail to comprehend how this process works. The more "lily white" (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course) your file may be be (and yes, there's bound to be a file), the more convinced "these people" will come to believe there is something about you that they simply have not yet discovered. Indeed, that's exactly the profile they would expect of a deep cover agent for some foreign power. Consequently, the more innocent you appear, the more you actually attract their attention!

I would seriously recommend you do something to put some blotches in your file -- get arrested for driving 10mph over the posted speed limit, running a red light, failing to stop at a stop sign. Encourage rumors that you cheat on your spouse (preferably with a member of your sex), have a gambling or drinking problem, are seriously indebted with no prospects of avoid bankruptcy. Now, that's the new 'normal' and will lead them to immediately write you off, so that you don't become a target.

If you don't understand what I'm trying to tell you here, it's time for you to read (or re-read) "Catch 22".
Yeah but if you enough of that they might want to make you a politician.

PanOptic

join:2010-08-11
reply to brydry
said by brydry:

I don't live a lifestyle that would lead to gov't agents suspecting me of anything that would give them a reason for them to track me.
The day you can tell me even the quantum of laws that comprise federal, state and municipal statutes, never mind all the various ways they can be 'extended', is the day I'll be able to give a statement like that even marginal 'respect'.

Happydude32
Premium
join:2005-07-16
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to SUMware
Every purchase I have made in the past year and a half as been on a credit card, no exceptions

I have three cell phones on me at all times, all three GPS enabled (Used to have an iPhone until I got the Evo)

I have an EZPass

I'm planning one replacing my factory radio with a Factory Navigation System provided I can get one.

Hopefully my DVRs report back what programming I record like my old TiVos did.

Every move I make can be tracked, every purchase I make can be traced, every word I speak can be heard, and no I don't really care. I have more important things to worry about then this tin foil hat nonsence. I'd be honored if someone wanted to spy on me, that would mean my [lack of a] life is of interest to someone.
--
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hm

@mc.videotron.ca
reply to jvmorris
said by jvmorris:

Gee, I see the story has now hit CNN. »www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/27/ore···l?hpt=T1
When Pineda-Moreno was arrested and charged, one piece of evidence was the GPS data, including the longitude and latitude of where the Jeep was driven, and how long it stayed. Prosecutors asserted the Jeep had been driven several times to remote rural locations where agents discovered marijuana being grown, court documents show.

I've driven quite a few times to rural locations where pot was being grown and I had no clue about it.

Matter of fact (years ago) when I drove a friend out and he came back with those big orange garden garbage bags that he tossed in my trunk and back seat. I figured it was clothes since he was moving.

I crossed the border into the states every weekend (used to have a place there) all summer long.

One day at work, in the fall, a guy asked to borrow my tire iron. I opened the truck and one of the bags were there. Loaded with pot branches and if you touched it, it was so dry, it would turn to almost powder. He asked me for it and I gave it to him since I don't do pot (wonder what the value of that was).

I had forgotten he told me he left a gift for me. heh

Imagine if I got nailed crossing into the states!

Imagine if they put a tracking device on my car and said, "your car drove several times to remote rural locations where agents discovered marijuana being grown"?

I think the court should have tossed it out. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone like this... They could have easily said i'm some narcotics distributor since I drive by and stop at pot farms.

Hope it gets appealed.


Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to SUMware
Wait...their hangup over a reasonable expectation for privacy is that one needs to display "No Trespassing" signs over your property? I kind of assumed that went without saying, regardless of the display of a sign. I'm pretty sure had I just gone through all the open front/back yards I wanted in my neighborhood, I'd be looking at some legal troubles.

I better go put a "No Stealing" sign on my car while we're at this.


TwighlightLA
Premium
join:2010-07-03
kudos:1
reply to SUMware
If the "government" seriously decided to really dedicate itself to keeping track of who you are and what you do it would take it 10 years to catch up to what private "industry" or the commercial data bases have on you right now.


zigzag

@blutmagie.de
How do you know the government isn't already tapping into those resources?


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1
reply to TwighlightLA
I take it you never heard of something called "National Security Letter"?
--
Regards,
Joseph V. Morris


marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:2
reply to hm
said by hm :

Imagine if they put a tracking device on my car and said, "your car drove several times to remote rural locations where agents discovered marijuana being grown"?
Note: You did commit a crime. They would have had to establish mens rea for you though, which would have been unlikely with the circumstances. The GPS track would only be one piece of evidence, establishing circumstantial evidence that you committed the crime; but more evidence would be needed to establish that you committed the crime and to establish mens rea.

Anyway, your situation demonstrates just one of the reasons why GPS should only be an investigative tool, not evidence.
--
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telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1
Good thing you mentioned mens rea; otherwise I'd have to stay off the Appalachian Trail!
--
Regards,
Joseph V. Morris


Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
reply to marigolds
said by marigolds:

Anyway, your situation demonstrates just one of the reasons why GPS should only be an investigative tool, not evidence.
I dunno. If investigators questioning you about a crime in Hawaii have your cell phone call/GPS records putting you in New York at the time in question...that's pretty good evidence that they have the wrong man.


truthjustice

@comcast.net

-1 recommendation

reply to SUMware
All I would like to see is any feds have to get a warrant before using one of these things on a US citizen.

Why is it that some feds feel they're above the law these days?


Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
Patriot Act. The feds have been operating above the law (legally) for some time now.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to hm
said by hm :

said by jvmorris:

Gee, I see the story has now hit CNN. »www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/27/ore···l?hpt=T1
When Pineda-Moreno was arrested and charged, one piece of evidence was the GPS data, including the longitude and latitude of where the Jeep was driven, and how long it stayed. Prosecutors asserted the Jeep had been driven several times to remote rural locations where agents discovered marijuana being grown, court documents show.

I've driven quite a few times to rural locations where pot was being grown and I had no clue about it.

Matter of fact (years ago) when I drove a friend out and he came back with those big orange garden garbage bags that he tossed in my trunk and back seat. I figured it was clothes since he was moving.

I crossed the border into the states every weekend (used to have a place there) all summer long.

One day at work, in the fall, a guy asked to borrow my tire iron. I opened the truck and one of the bags were there. Loaded with pot branches and if you touched it, it was so dry, it would turn to almost powder. He asked me for it and I gave it to him since I don't do pot (wonder what the value of that was).

I had forgotten he told me he left a gift for me. heh

Imagine if I got nailed crossing into the states!

Imagine if they put a tracking device on my car and said, "your car drove several times to remote rural locations where agents discovered marijuana being grown"?

I think the court should have tossed it out. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone like this... They could have easily said i'm some narcotics distributor since I drive by and stop at pot farms.

Hope it gets appealed.
If for some reason you were stopped by the cops, I'm sure your buddy would have said the pot was his. Perhaps you need to review Chris Rock's - How not to get your ass kicked by the police! and pay attention to point about 'crazy friends' who have drugs.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8


Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

cmaenginsb1
Premium
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
reply to Thaler
said by Thaler:

said by marigolds:

Anyway, your situation demonstrates just one of the reasons why GPS should only be an investigative tool, not evidence.
I dunno. If investigators questioning you about a crime in Hawaii have your cell phone call/GPS records putting you in New York at the time in question...that's pretty good evidence that they have the wrong man.
Actually if your records prove that you were in New York, unless there was strong reason to believe otherwise they probably wouldn't question you for long. It wouldn't necessarily need to be "evidence" used in court.

cmaenginsb1
Premium
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
reply to truthjustice
said by truthjustice :

All I would like to see is any feds have to get a warrant before using one of these things on a US citizen.

Why is it that some feds feel they're above the law these days?
Easy, show 1 law the prohibits this kind of surveillance. The fact is there isn't any so they aren't "above the law". I can put one of these on my wife's car and use it to track her as well.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
Hey now, I don't need tracking devices coming on to my property like that.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Thaler
said by Thaler:

said by marigolds:

Anyway, your situation demonstrates just one of the reasons why GPS should only be an investigative tool, not evidence.
I dunno. If investigators questioning you about a crime in Hawaii have your cell phone call/GPS records putting you in New York at the time in question...that's pretty good evidence that they have the wrong man.
May be it's because the cell phone is not you? And a GPS device that could be attached to your car is not your car?

Need an example? May be you gave your cell phone (for whatever reason) to someone else and he/she used it one or two times form New York? The same applies to GPS device which could be temporary placed in another car, that car had its own route and GPS was returned back. It is just attached to a car, isn't it? It's easy to set up anyone with anything with it...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

Hey now, I don't need tracking devices coming on to my property like that.
I guess my car is still my property, isn't it?

It doesn't really matter, where my car was, when it has happened - on my own driveway or on a parking lot in a shopping center.

I don't need any tracking device attached to my property. Period.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...