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Iscream
Premium
join:2009-02-17
New York, NY
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

3 edits
reply to engineerdan

Re: [General] PAYG Providers who Populate LIDB/CNAM Database?

Populating and maintaining are two different things. I don't know "how" you asked and "what" they answered... But with some very rare and rather "exotic" exceptions - Callcentric DOES set LIDB when a number is ported in Callcentric network. But, because Callcentric doesn't have a "monthly" or "subscription" CNAM type of products (analyzed multiple times an idea of introducing such "outbound CNAM" service [the term is totally wrong] and then dropped the idea of) while it's a cost prohibitive to MAINTAIN a LIDB database on monthly/real-time/on demand basis.

This issue is irrelevant to the size of operation (Callcentric is not a "small" business, not all ) , I'd rather say that the larger size - the more expensive would be such "maintenance" (in total $ value) unless sufficient monthly fee is paid to cover such operation.

There are only a few Line Information Data Bases (this is what LIDB stands for) in US and Canada; those DBs are populated and maintained by ILECs, CLECs and RBOCs ONLY while an I/C-LEC or RBOC may have an access (not full) ONLY to numbers which actually belong (allocated) to their switches.

Now, about CNAMs - those are totally different from LIDBs information providers. Companies providing official CNAM services are either independent SS7 interconnected CNAM (and other telecom DB information providers) operators or same I/C-LECs or RBOCs who share and/or exchange CNAM information among themselves.

The difference? It's huge. When one ports a number or purchases a new telephone line - the information is populated in LIDB. When one "populates" a CNAM provider - the information gets mostly nowhere. At best - it may be shared with few clients/peers of that CNAM provider. There are only a few LIDBs while there are 100s (if not 1000s) independent and uncontrolled legal or "gray" or even "black" CNAM operators. As PX Eliezer wrote above - even such largest cableco as Cablevision use "gray" CNAM database quite often providing [at best] cached from real, but most often - 3rd party collected information... I believe - no one can say that Cablevision is a small business... Not all Mobile operators even provide/maintain appropriate CNAM service... Is AT&T mobile a small business too?

To sum it up, again - Callcentric DOES set LIDB for numbers ported in, but Callcentric doesn't "maintain" LIDB records on monthly basis due to extreme cost associated with such service and unwillingness of subscribers looking for "discounted" service to pay for such a favor... Out of topic - Callcentric provides FREE inbound CNAM service, but has been severely criticized by "cheap" users for their prices being slightly more expensive (monthly difference in just few bucks) than some other providers who charge for CNAM on per call basis. How would that be possible to "ask" ALL users to subsidize "a few more" bucks, per DID, each month to perform LIDB maintenance?! Come on - people here are going "Full Monthy" for Callcentric enforcing E911 service for US and Canadian customers...

The last - IMHO, "outgoing" CNAM is not a deal-killer for MOST customers. Hey, why nobody complains when his/her mobile handset sends a call out that their recipient, at best, can see something like "917 NY Mobile" ?

Well, when/if FCC will begin enforcing outbound CNAM while providing required technical base (via underlying I/C-LECs) - then it will be a different case, then Callcentric will be among first ones to provide such service. Canada is also a different case - CLECs and RBOCs there are enforced to accept "outgoing name" properly set within ISDN (PRI) Q931 signaling - therefore even simple SIP to PRI gateway is capable to send out callers name... I wish FCC would require the same here.


Davesworld

join:2007-10-30
Everett, WA
Actually, most people's mobile numbers do send out CNAM and can be seen on incoming calls while using a provider such as landline, voip etc that provides incoming CNAM. The cellulars do not have incoming CNAM so you would never know.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
said by Davesworld:

Actually, most people's mobile numbers do send out CNAM and can be seen on incoming calls while using a provider such as landline, voip etc that provides incoming CNAM.
No, I have a Verizon POTS business landline, and we get LOTS of incoming calls from people on mobile phones.

Almost NONE of these cellphone calls show up with proper CNAM. Instead, we usually see something like "Cellphone NJ" or just "New Jersey".

By far the biggest mobile provider here is Verizon Wireless, and they do not provide outbound CNAM.

Now, AT&T Wireless generally offers outbound CNAM, but they are relatively small in the market here.

Iscream
Premium
join:2009-02-17
New York, NY
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Davesworld
You're mostly right. I just wanted to say that presence or absence of CNAM as well as LIDB population and/or maintenance is not an indicator of company size as well as not a deal killer or breaker... It's just an implementation of one's business concepts and plans.

B/w CNAM is not sent out (with an exception of Canadian CLECs and not everywhere) - it's the information which is queried and displayed (if provided) by an incoming call's receiving operator. Said operator queries one or several CNAM databases they have service agreement with (if any). Also - not all and not everywhere (depends on market/country or type of service) mobile providers provide/provision CNAM info within LIDB for their subscribers as well as not all (even POTS based) receiving operators show correct CNAM information related to mobile users.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to PX Eliezer70
We've wondered for a hundred years if the evening meal is "dinner" or "supper".

Now, we have another dilemma.

Is it "mobile" or "wireless" or "cellular" ??

Or all three?

"My Verizon Wireless cellphone provides good mobile service."

engineerdan

join:2006-12-07
Manassas, VA
reply to Iscream
said by Iscream:

Populating and maintaining are two different things. I don't know "how" you asked and "what" they answered... But with some very rare and rather "exotic" exceptions - Callcentric DOES set LIDB when a number is ported in Callcentric network.
Well, that's interesting. Iscream, I asked by way of the CallCentric web site's support textbox. Here's the response that I received:

You are correct that we do not support outgoing CNAM. We do support incoming CNAM but do not populate the LIDB with CMAN information for outgoing calls. We may be able to provide this in the future but do not have a time frame.

I much prefer your answer, Iscream. With all due respect, what's the best way for me to verify which of the two answers that I have received is correct? I have the name of the person who signed this response. I'll send it to you via PM.

said by Iscream:

You're mostly right. I just wanted to say that presence or absence of CNAM as well as LIDB population and/or maintenance is not an indicator of company size as well as not a deal killer or breaker... It's just an implementation of one's business concepts and plans.
Perhaps it's not a deal killer in general. However, it's certainly a deal killer for this specific client. He told me so.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·Callcentric
·Dish Network
reply to Iscream
said by Iscream:

The last - IMHO, "outgoing" CNAM is not a deal-killer for MOST customers. Hey, why nobody complains when his/her mobile handset sends a call out that their recipient, at best, can see something like "917 NY Mobile" ?
I have complained that my cellphone doesn't have proper CNAM. US Cellular claims its a "privacy issue", not a technical one. Which is probably true, all their lines have "US Cellular" as the CNAM so they must be populating the LIDB with that.

Did people ever complain about no INCOMING CNAM? I bet so. Sooner or later CNAM will be useless, since so many provicers are now refusing to populate the LIDB's.

Of course, I do believe this is the RBOC's at work to mess with the smaller providers.


Trev
IP Telephony Addict
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Victoria, BC
kudos:6

1 recommendation

reply to Iscream
said by Iscream:

You're mostly right. I just wanted to say that presence or absence of CNAM as well as LIDB population and/or maintenance is not an indicator of company size as well as not a deal killer or breaker... It's just an implementation of one's business concepts and plans.
1. Buy origination from a cooperative CLEC such as Level3
2. Ask CLEC to sign an LOA for your numbers
3. "Buy" services for a LIDB database host on a cost-recovery basis
4. Profit! (possibly break even, but never pay)

There aren't even any ???'s in there
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