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stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo

Re: The Death of the Cat

Again, you are assuming that the numbers will make it to live. At the current state yes, kitties are dorked, but then again, that is the point of beta and ptr.


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
reply to Goodmongo
said by Goodmongo :

Come patch all feral kitties will be no more. The class is broken plain and simple. DPS has been cut in HALF. Now I know Blizz will most likely make changes as this is just terrible right now. However, I don't think there will be any feral kitties raiding till they do.

So for the dual spec I guess it will be bear (which is still decent, not great but decent) and boomkin. Feral healing is almost as bad as kitty dps right now.

On many sites myself and others complained and we were always told it's just beat and that they will get to it. And more then once the blue posts said that in the near future they will be reviewing it. All of that proved to be BS. There is not another class that got a 50% nerf to dps. Such a shame.
i stopped reading when you said the exact words "the class is broken". heres to hoping your alliance and on my server.


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
reply to Phantasee
said by Phantasee:

I blame Arena. (and Mudkipz)
I love Arena. (but not Mudkipz)


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
reply to Draakas
said by Draakas:

arent they taking away stunlocks from rogues?!?!
did these even exist?


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo
k, so I did some more testing last night on the beta. Currently in a good mix of 264 with a few 251 gear, (Feraless on Emerald Dream if you want to armory me) this is what I saw:

5 CP FB w/ SR was critting for about 6.2k (this is with the glyph that removes additional damage for energy glyph)

Mangle with SR was hitting for 3.3 avg.

I did not have recount going, but unless the new ability that allows us to double attack on melee increases our damage significantly, the numbers just won't do. Right now I would saw that kitties are down about 60% in beta than what they would be on live atm. Again, this is with same gear, although I did switch out WFS for NES since NES is crap on beta and I didn't need to be ArP capped. That brings up the question: Is the removal of ArP what is killing melee dps? With NES I was at ArP softcap, just shy of crit cap, and pushing out over 10k ATP. Also, with the removal of FAP from weapons, I was over 3k less ATP than on live. Sorry for the ramblings, kinda came to a few conclusions while writing this:

ArP removal as well at removal of FAP leaves kitties close to 60% less damage on beta than live atm.

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to blackthought
said by blackthought:

Wow Player: This game is cake, there is no challenge blizzard you suck

Blizzard: Ok HERE, we've changed everything have fun re-learning

Wow player: QQ, QQ, QQ

?

Take it for what it's worth, A NEW GAME EXPERIENCE.

I'm looking forward to having to relearn priorities and rotations and such.
Wow last time I was hearing about a New Game Experience it was from SOE when they completely change Star Wars Galaxies and look how well that turned out. It's why I play WOW by the way.
I'm really glad that you are looking forward to relearning and such. However, if I want a new game I'll go by a new game. I don't think just relearning your rotation is gonna bring back 50-60% of your dps.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
Rotations for kitties stay the same except for when the mob is below 25%(?). Then FB will refresh Rip, allowing us to dump our CP specifically into the boss. That, and we now have the ability to reliably interupt with skullbash which when talented (pretty much a must) gives us an interupt on 10 sec cd that does not require CP to work as a finisher like maim currently does.


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
reply to stvnbrs
said by stvnbrs:

k, so I did some more testing last night on the beta. Currently in a good mix of 264 with a few 251 gear, (Feraless on Emerald Dream if you want to armory me) this is what I saw:

5 CP FB w/ SR was critting for about 6.2k (this is with the glyph that removes additional damage for energy glyph)

Mangle with SR was hitting for 3.3 avg.

I did not have recount going, but unless the new ability that allows us to double attack on melee increases our damage significantly, the numbers just won't do. Right now I would saw that kitties are down about 60% in beta than what they would be on live atm. Again, this is with same gear, although I did switch out WFS for NES since NES is crap on beta and I didn't need to be ArP capped. That brings up the question: Is the removal of ArP what is killing melee dps? With NES I was at ArP softcap, just shy of crit cap, and pushing out over 10k ATP. Also, with the removal of FAP from weapons, I was over 3k less ATP than on live. Sorry for the ramblings, kinda came to a few conclusions while writing this:

ArP removal as well at removal of FAP leaves kitties close to 60% less damage on beta than live atm.
You are correct. The major reasons for the huge 50 to 65% DPS loss is the removal of FAP ( Feral bonus AP from weapons) and the ArP changes.

From what is posted the changes are supposed to go live in the 4.0.1 patch which is thought to be tomorrow. That means Blizz will allow kitties to be broken on live servers. No more ICC as feral DPS. Not even sure if we could do Ulduar.

Many of the posters were theri usual obnoxius self and said they stopped reading or said it's PTR etc. Well this is serious because in my 4 years of playing WOW never has a class been this messed up (50% up to 65% DPS nerf) with a patch.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
TBH the class isn't broken or messed up, the numbers are just down. Numbers are easy to fix as has been said before. Implementing a new UI or class mechanic can take much more work and break in many ways. Kitties were left pretty much alone with the exception of a few new abilities, double auto-attacks, stampeding roar and skull bash. Nothing is ground breaking, they just need to adjust our numbers to fit more in line with what the caster dps is putting out.

Magillacon

join:2010-09-13
Centereach, NY
reply to Goodmongo
So you say they are doing the tests on the target dummy's, so is there a possibility that the target dummy's are now a higher level since the new cap is 85? putting the dummy on a standard of new dungeons? are these kitties lvl 85 or lvl80? Idk these questions come to mind b.c that might explain the cut in dps. Also this dps might come back in the future with gear at the level cap. Gear aquired while leveling up may be just structured a certain way so we dont get specific classes face rolling through dungeons and zones. They might already foresee that this nerf will be balanced with tier or pvp gear at 85.

Or im just completely wrong also very possible.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 edit
This was a lvl 80 target dummy and my kitty was lvl 80 with current gear. If anything, the numbers are even lower, as the dummy wasn't a raid boss (skull). I have also tried with a lvl 85 kitty using 333 gear, and it is a little lower than what I put out now. I will have to do more testing at this, but to put it in brief: kitties are not accepted into dungeon runs due to low dps on all counts. This isn't a playstle button mashing issue, but serious coefficient problems.

Edit: In bear form & spec with same gear I do more damage at lvl 85 solo.

Magillacon

join:2010-09-13
Centereach, NY
Hot damn. Glad I am a mage. Anyone been testing mage dps? I want fire to be my new strong arm. Is it still a dead tree? Considering Frost is always PvP and Arcane is PvE. This leaves fire as... lol I want Fire to come back as credible for PvP at least


Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1

1 edit
Fire is top DPS/Total dmg done for end game right now, not arcane.

Magillacon

join:2010-09-13
Centereach, NY
said by Treebark:

Fire is top DPS/Total dmg done for end game right now, not arcane.


It's like you knew what I needed to hear. Then said it. I might have to xfer to horde for this one. Ud mage spin kicking fireballs at errbodiee =D

nusse

join:2010-09-09
said by Magillacon:

said by Treebark:

Fire is top DPS/Total dmg done for end game right now, not arcane.


It's like you knew what I needed to hear. Then said it. I might have to xfer to horde for this one. Ud mage spin kicking fireballs at errbodiee =D
I think he was saying that even in CURRENT Fire is top for end game ...


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
reply to stvnbrs
said by stvnbrs:

TBH the class isn't broken or messed up, the numbers are just down. Numbers are easy to fix as has been said before. Implementing a new UI or class mechanic can take much more work and break in many ways. Kitties were left pretty much alone with the exception of a few new abilities, double auto-attacks, stampeding roar and skull bash. Nothing is ground breaking, they just need to adjust our numbers to fit more in line with what the caster dps is putting out.
Ture it's not broken in the sense that it will take new talents to fix. But when the 4.0.1 patch goes live I will no longer be able to go into ICC/Ulduar and who knows where else in a kitty spec. That is broken to me because I was trying to get a few Ulduar and ICC achievements and mounts.

I could tank but then our current tanks would have to drop out or change specs. So while the numbers will eventually be fixed and adjusted it does break the game for now and this prevents me from playing for the next few weeks (or until they change things).


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
can't go Shroomkin?


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
said by bTU:

can't go Shroomkin?
I could but my gear would suck. I knew I should have taken all those drops that we DE'd.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
That makes complete sense, and is something that I am worried about myself. Thankfully, I have 5, 5k gs sets sitting in the bank including a tank set. More than likely, unless the kitty is fixed prior, I will hang up my kitty for bear and boomkin. With tank queues as fast as they are, I am hoping to amass a boomie set quickly. This of course assumes that heroics don't become impossibly difficult or that players don't fail.


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
reply to Goodmongo
Damn, and I just decided to make my Druid my main. Any goto sites for Druids that can compare to the Hunter's site warcrafthuntersunion.com ?


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 edit
»druid.wikispaces.com/

Edit: Should be accessable from behind WebSense


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
said by stvnbrs:

»druid.wikispaces.com/

Edit: Should be accessable from behind WebSense
Thanks,
I've checked that site out before. It always seemed somewhat dated.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
The kitty calculator is really all I use it for, but there are several of us on the forums that play druids. Try posting in »[ Classes] Druid Thread for answers to questions.


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
Ahh duh me, my druid search of the forums missed this thread somehow. Thanks again.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Goodmongo
You obciously never played a fury warrior when TG had a -15% chance to hit with your OH weapon in the beginning of Wrath.

Every class is having problems with specific things, as stated above. Almost every melee class that enjoyed Arpen (Frost DKs, Fury Warriors, ferals and combat rogues) are seeing huge drops in dps. Most of you who are experienced enough with WoW should have seen this coming when Blizz told us all that arpen was going the way of the dodo.

For those of you who don't understand, let me spell it out for you. The mobs you are hitting are no longer being "debuffed" by your arpen because it doesn't exist. Therefore you are hitting mobs for what you WOULD have been hitting them for without arpen pre-4.0/Beta/PTR.

Now, Blizz DID tune the Beta/PTR for 85 because that is what they are interested in testing, not the inbetween levels. They will work on tuning the damage between levels 80-85 a few weeks after Cataclysm hits, but until then they will probably leave it alone, similar to what they did with Vani-BC and BC-Wrath.

Also, what target dummies are you hitting? If you are hitting the Grandmaster Dummy (skull ?? mob) it is possible you are hitting the level 88 boss dummy. I would try my numbers out on the level 80 dummy if I was just 80 and the level 85 dummy (if it exists). If you are hitting a [Skull] mob it means on of two things:

1) The mob is more than 4 levels higher than your current level
2) It's a boss level mob which means it is level 88.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
I was hitting a lvl 80 target dummy. Unfortunately, ferals have been hit particularly hard with the implementation of new stats. Not only do ferals loose the ArP, but we are also loosing out on the FAP that we currently get from weapons. This translated to 3k less ATP along with no ArP... so we hit fully armored mobs for less. That is what hurts. Also, kitties are loosing 10 expertise rating as the talent no longer exists, so unless you have an over-abundance on that stat, you will loose dps from that as well. Not to mention, our crit chance has gone down as well. Current kitties that were brushing several hard and soft caps prior to this expansion will find that they are very far from the place they were, and unfortunately, unless numbers are tweaked, do not have any way to make up the difference. Even with Mastery at lvl 85 in full 333 gear, you still don't do the same amount of damage as current ferals do in live. We have had a great run as high dps specs, but that looks to be over unless Blizz listens to the masses on this one.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
Aside from the removal of FAP and Arpen, almost all your problems can be fixed with better gear. You are going to suck at level 80 in cataclysm. Imagine how a fury warrior felt. A lot of what you guys are talking about is in a raiding environment, which does not equal leveling enviroment.

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now. It was my understanding that unless you had top notch gear, feral dps was crap (similar to fury warriors). A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.

Also, without hard numbers (I mean combatlog parses, which you can read without uploading to WoL/WWS) and testing, somewhere around 100-200 dps tests on a patchwerk style fight, you can never really know what your dps should/could/will be.

I am guessing that even EJ has done somethings in this area as well. Your best bet would be just a wait and see game before crying about the sky falling.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
Well at least my hunter was doing 12K dps on heroics in the PTR.. but the dream came to a halt on the latest build... they nerf pet damage to the ground and BM is no longer that good, except for the ancient hysteria (BL) buff

Will have to go survival that's the top end dmg spec on 4.0.1


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Tirael
*sigh*
As I have said many times over in this thread, ferals are good on the mechanics department, numbers just need to be adjusted. Unfortunately, even with lvl 85 gear and spec, kitty dps is lagging behind. Bears currently do more damage than kitties solo. This is a specific numbers issue. The problem lies in that raiding kitties such as myself, will find their dps contributions severely cut down, which for guilds still tryint to progress doesn't help much.

Also, feral dps doesn't need huge amounts of gear to do decent dps, just a skilled player, now skill still doesn't cut it, and neither does gear. Again, this is a numbers issue, but for current kitties, we may be a rare breed come the patch if they aren't adjusted prior.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Tirael
said by Tirael:

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now........ A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.
I just said the same thing you did. (hint: read the bolded text)
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo