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stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 edit
reply to Suniojii

Re: The Death of the Cat

»druid.wikispaces.com/

Edit: Should be accessable from behind WebSense


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
said by stvnbrs:

»druid.wikispaces.com/

Edit: Should be accessable from behind WebSense
Thanks,
I've checked that site out before. It always seemed somewhat dated.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
The kitty calculator is really all I use it for, but there are several of us on the forums that play druids. Try posting in »[ Classes] Druid Thread for answers to questions.


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
Ahh duh me, my druid search of the forums missed this thread somehow. Thanks again.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Goodmongo
You obciously never played a fury warrior when TG had a -15% chance to hit with your OH weapon in the beginning of Wrath.

Every class is having problems with specific things, as stated above. Almost every melee class that enjoyed Arpen (Frost DKs, Fury Warriors, ferals and combat rogues) are seeing huge drops in dps. Most of you who are experienced enough with WoW should have seen this coming when Blizz told us all that arpen was going the way of the dodo.

For those of you who don't understand, let me spell it out for you. The mobs you are hitting are no longer being "debuffed" by your arpen because it doesn't exist. Therefore you are hitting mobs for what you WOULD have been hitting them for without arpen pre-4.0/Beta/PTR.

Now, Blizz DID tune the Beta/PTR for 85 because that is what they are interested in testing, not the inbetween levels. They will work on tuning the damage between levels 80-85 a few weeks after Cataclysm hits, but until then they will probably leave it alone, similar to what they did with Vani-BC and BC-Wrath.

Also, what target dummies are you hitting? If you are hitting the Grandmaster Dummy (skull ?? mob) it is possible you are hitting the level 88 boss dummy. I would try my numbers out on the level 80 dummy if I was just 80 and the level 85 dummy (if it exists). If you are hitting a [Skull] mob it means on of two things:

1) The mob is more than 4 levels higher than your current level
2) It's a boss level mob which means it is level 88.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
I was hitting a lvl 80 target dummy. Unfortunately, ferals have been hit particularly hard with the implementation of new stats. Not only do ferals loose the ArP, but we are also loosing out on the FAP that we currently get from weapons. This translated to 3k less ATP along with no ArP... so we hit fully armored mobs for less. That is what hurts. Also, kitties are loosing 10 expertise rating as the talent no longer exists, so unless you have an over-abundance on that stat, you will loose dps from that as well. Not to mention, our crit chance has gone down as well. Current kitties that were brushing several hard and soft caps prior to this expansion will find that they are very far from the place they were, and unfortunately, unless numbers are tweaked, do not have any way to make up the difference. Even with Mastery at lvl 85 in full 333 gear, you still don't do the same amount of damage as current ferals do in live. We have had a great run as high dps specs, but that looks to be over unless Blizz listens to the masses on this one.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
Aside from the removal of FAP and Arpen, almost all your problems can be fixed with better gear. You are going to suck at level 80 in cataclysm. Imagine how a fury warrior felt. A lot of what you guys are talking about is in a raiding environment, which does not equal leveling enviroment.

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now. It was my understanding that unless you had top notch gear, feral dps was crap (similar to fury warriors). A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.

Also, without hard numbers (I mean combatlog parses, which you can read without uploading to WoL/WWS) and testing, somewhere around 100-200 dps tests on a patchwerk style fight, you can never really know what your dps should/could/will be.

I am guessing that even EJ has done somethings in this area as well. Your best bet would be just a wait and see game before crying about the sky falling.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
Well at least my hunter was doing 12K dps on heroics in the PTR.. but the dream came to a halt on the latest build... they nerf pet damage to the ground and BM is no longer that good, except for the ancient hysteria (BL) buff

Will have to go survival that's the top end dmg spec on 4.0.1


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Tirael
*sigh*
As I have said many times over in this thread, ferals are good on the mechanics department, numbers just need to be adjusted. Unfortunately, even with lvl 85 gear and spec, kitty dps is lagging behind. Bears currently do more damage than kitties solo. This is a specific numbers issue. The problem lies in that raiding kitties such as myself, will find their dps contributions severely cut down, which for guilds still tryint to progress doesn't help much.

Also, feral dps doesn't need huge amounts of gear to do decent dps, just a skilled player, now skill still doesn't cut it, and neither does gear. Again, this is a numbers issue, but for current kitties, we may be a rare breed come the patch if they aren't adjusted prior.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Tirael
said by Tirael:

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now........ A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.
I just said the same thing you did. (hint: read the bolded text)
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
reply to Tirael
said by Tirael:

Aside from the removal of FAP and Arpen, almost all your problems can be fixed with better gear. You are going to suck at level 80 in cataclysm. Imagine how a fury warrior felt. A lot of what you guys are talking about is in a raiding environment, which does not equal leveling enviroment.

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now. It was my understanding that unless you had top notch gear, feral dps was crap (similar to fury warriors). A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.

Also, without hard numbers (I mean combatlog parses, which you can read without uploading to WoL/WWS) and testing, somewhere around 100-200 dps tests on a patchwerk style fight, you can never really know what your dps should/could/will be.

I am guessing that even EJ has done somethings in this area as well. Your best bet would be just a wait and see game before crying about the sky falling.
I think you miss what we are saying here. I know other classes have been hit. Said so myself. But no class has been hit with a 60%+ reduction in DPS. I can't ever recall that big of a drop at anytime.

Gear is not the issue unless they add back FAP to gear which they won't. Tons of posts on EJ as saying what I'm saying. They have done the tests and looked at combat logs. things are bad.

Yes maybe by Cata release things will be better. But that means we can't do squat right now as this will impact us starting with 4.0.1 release. No more raiding for mounts or achievements. There are numerous posts of kitties who did 12 to 15K dps in ICC now doing under 5K on the PTR. Some is fixed by gem changes and trinket changes. But that is a huge drop.

As for waiting we are seeing what is going on right now on the PTR. this is not something that MIGHT happen but is going to happen with the next update. It's not based on rotations, gear knowing your class etc. The top feral druids in the world are saying this.

I also played a fury warrior and that is nothing compared to this situation. Will things get better? Yes I'm positive they will. But for about 2 months I won't be able to raid as a kitty.

blackthought

join:2010-04-08
Phoenix, AZ
well maybe it's a good thing 4.0.1 didn't drop today, they have a week to fix things, because I swear if 4 doesn't drop next tuesday i'm going to write a strongly worded letter to the customer service department.
--
»www.nomorenoob.com - Wow help site
Noob of the month - »www.nomorenoob.com/p/noob-of-month.html


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo
Agreed.
4 reasons:
removal of 10 expertise rating,
removal of FAP,
removal or ArP,
loss of 8% crit (gained back at lvl 85)

I jumped on the PTR last night and tried to test out my current kitty, char xfer was slow, so I used a premade. I won't post numbers, as I want to do a side-by-side comparison of same characters with similar gear, but crit did seem lower than I remember it should be with the premade gear. This may be due to the 8% crit that we won't get for Master Shapeshifter talents until lvl 85. Hopefully tonight I can do more testing. One thing is clear though, kitties will see a significant drop in ALL IMPORTANT STATS in the new patch unless numbers are fixed. This will lead to SIGNIFICANT DPS LOSS.


AWEMEDIC

join:2010-10-05
San Antonio, TX
reply to Goodmongo
Bad kitty

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to Goodmongo
One of my biggest question was what character would be my main going into Cata. My druid was leading the way as it had become my main in BC and was to start LK but then my spriest took the lead for a while then gave way to pally and back to druid with a little warrior mixed in. I guess I'll put my druid on the self with my mage and rogue. (I know that mage and rogue were still viable they just were no longer my favorite to play).


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
One of the reasons I love having a druid main is that I can adjust to different roles. My first main was a priest that I played through BC, but was unimpressed with beginning WotLK shadow priests, especially the retarded form of aoe implemented for them. That is when I went to my druid. I have played each spec except Boomkin, but that may be changing this expac as well. For someone that gets bored with things fairly easily, I found that I always have something to do on my druid


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
reply to Goodmongo
take that ya invisible rogue knock-off cats! my mage no longer fears you! but no yeah i can see why the loss in numbers ticks off feral specced droods.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
A similar scenerio would be if you took one of the tanks and cut their health by 60% and let the other tanks keep theirs. (This is the reference of kitty dps vs. caster dps atm as all melee are down.)


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
said by stvnbrs:

A similar scenerio would be if you took one of the tanks and cut their health by 60% and let the other tanks keep theirs. (This is the reference of kitty dps vs. caster dps atm as all melee are down.)
that would suck... if i cared about pve as much as i care about pvp. on my part itd be more about my mana pool or resil or even CDs on certain spells that help my survivability.


Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1
reply to stvnbrs
If you have never been a boomkin, it is a very easy spec to play, nothing much to it really. A lot of healing gear can be used for it. And as easy as it is, I find it alot of fun.


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
said by Treebark:

If you have never been a boomkin, it is a very easy spec to play, nothing much to it really. A lot of healing gear can be used for it. And as easy as it is, I find it alot of fun.
ive always wanted to try being a moonkin. is it fun to play pvp wise? its mostly rather easy to pwn em down in pvp unless they actually play good, as my mage. but they look like fun to play. are they?


Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1
I have PVP'ed a little in arena and BG's. I am usually resto when I pvp. They have alot of survivability tools for PVP and Starfall is OP. I was cyclone bot alot and casting wrath a few times and back to cyclone/roots/typhoon.

They have alot of tools. I haven't seen alot of PVP boomkins but like I said, it was fun to me when I pvp'ed as that spec.


e001mek
Mekkaku

join:2010-02-09
said by Treebark:

I have PVP'ed a little in arena and BG's. I am usually resto when I pvp. They have alot of survivability tools for PVP and Starfall is OP. I was cyclone bot alot and casting wrath a few times and back to cyclone/roots/typhoon.

They have alot of tools. I haven't seen alot of PVP boomkins but like I said, it was fun to me when I pvp'ed as that spec.
might take me forever to get one to 80 but what the hell why not. ill try it out. already got a drood at around 13ish. ill just give him my BoA gear from my other dudes.


Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1
lvl as feral and you never have to take the extra time to eat or drink after mobs. All the time adds up.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo
SR now increases white damage by 50% instead of all attacks by 30%. This explains why shred and FB are hitting for considerably less.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo
Post taken from:»forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···&sid=1#7

This is an excerpt from my post on a different thread on another account. I am similarly interested in anyone else's testing.

Feral Druids are a bit underpowered at the moment using the build currently on the Public Test Realm. I was; however, able to reach about 80-85% of the damage I can reach using a different setup than live. I am currently stacking Agility, Haste (ArP on gear automatically converted to Haste) and Mastery (which I Reforged from all the Haste), in that order. My gems are all Agility (red), Agility/Crit (yellow) and Agility/Hit (blue). This is just one setup although seemingly optimal with the gear available. All my enchantments are Agility and I am currently testing Mongoose on my weapon. I have the following statistics unbuffed:

2209 Agility
712 Haste (21.71%) with Needle Encrusted Scorpion proc = 42.38% Haste (barely manageable with Tiger's Fury and/or Omen of Clarity)
343 Mastery (15.47%)

My build is pretty obvious except with emphasis on PvP/Utility. Infected Wounds, Stampede, Brutal Impact and Nurturing Instinct and excluding Fury Swipes. All other choices seem relatively obvious for a pure dps build.

Here are some things I have noticed:

Haste seems to work extremely well to quickly regenerate energy; I found that 30% Haste seems to work well since this provides a significant buff to energy regeneration but is manageable. I found that Haste over 50% was unmanageable when using Tiger's Fury or with Omen of Clarity procs. Haste is not currently effecting Damage over Time (Rake, Rip) "ticks;" although my testing in the last PTR build demonstrated that Haste was effecting DoTs in that build. If Blizzard reenables this your damage should rise significantly.

Mastery seems to effect Rake, Rip and Shred which comprise a considerable percentage of our damage.

DoTs can be critical strikes even though Feral Druids no longer have a specific talent to cause DoTs to allow critical strikes.

Stampede is an outstanding talent. I have been able to consistently Ravage three times with the talent and in some cases I was able to Ravage four or even five times. I have not lost a duel yet unless I was specifically testing a particular aspect of the game and lost intentionally. As a note i would not consider myself very good at PvP as a Feral Druid.

Fury Swipes provided only an additional ~1% of damage for three talent points. I would consider this for min/maxing but I used the points in other areas for improving PvP and raid utility.

Primal Madness helps with energy management during Berserk and Tiger's Fury. This talent is a must have with high levels of Haste in my opinion.

Endless Carnage helps considerably with Rake uptime although I wouldn't get this talent for the buff to Savage Roar alone. The one-two punch of this talent makes it very worthwhile.

Rend and Tear, Feral Aggression and Blood in the Water harmonize quite well. This trio of talents is an amazing improvement that shouldn't be overlooked even if you can't test Blood in the Water on a target dummy.

My Feral Druid lost about 3,000 Attack Power (I assume as a result of the removal of Feral Attack Power from weapons although the numbers don't exactly match). Some of the difference is relieved with the increased conversion rate of 2 Attack Power per 1 Agility.

I lost about 4% critical strike since a Feral Druid can't reach Master Shapeshifter at level 80.

The optimal rotation is the same as WotLK as we seem to have maintained essentially the same priority system and I couldnt see any differences in the priorities except that Savage Roar is slightly less important and Rip is replaced with Ferocious Bite at 25% of target's health.

Rip (replace with Ferocious Bite at 25% of target's health) (I averaged 1,348 dpe)
Savage Roar (I roar at 4 or 5 CP) (Need more time to calculate dpe)
Mangle Debuff (35 energy) ( I averaged 94.74 dpe)
Rake Debuff (I averaged 457. 42 dpe)
Shred (40 energy) (I averaged 106 dpe)
Faerie Fire (currently bugged - doesnt cause damage that I can see although tooltip indicates it should)
Ferocious Bite (I averaged ~214 dpe)

I tried dropping Ferocious Bite altogether and the difference was 5% loss in dps while dropping Savage Roar was about a 10% loss in overall dps. I wouldn't even consider dropping Rip since you should reroll if you can't keep Rip up >80% of the time; as a result I didn't bother testing the dps loss of not using Rip.

Lorebris
Drenden

I found this post very informative. It seems that Blizz is making most of our hard hitting abilities scale with Matery, and allowing us to hit for less, but more often with the changes to haste. We are still doing less damage than on live, but this is another very informative opinion.

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
Arpen only was converted to haste on very few pieces of gear, for example a gear that didn't have haste and had crit on it..

Most gear, say 90% of it that had armpen it was converted all to crit, even adding to existing crit, so maybe he means he reforged 40% of the crit to haste, that'll make more sense, but you can't if the gear already has haste, so it goes to mastery ratig..

he lost 10 expertise rating or 10 expertise? (not the same thing), my rogue lost full 14 expertise (from 26/26 to 12/12)


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
All ferals will loose 10 expertise from the redesign of the feral tree. That is we will go from capped 22 expertise to 12 iirc. Also, from other reading, it looks like crit is not the stat it once was, and that mastery and haste balanced with Agi will all play equal roles. Gonna be a late night tonight, but hopefully I can get a good character copy and some testing on the ptr done tongiht. Will post finding should that happen.