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stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo

Re: The Death of the Cat

k, so I did some more testing last night on the beta. Currently in a good mix of 264 with a few 251 gear, (Feraless on Emerald Dream if you want to armory me) this is what I saw:

5 CP FB w/ SR was critting for about 6.2k (this is with the glyph that removes additional damage for energy glyph)

Mangle with SR was hitting for 3.3 avg.

I did not have recount going, but unless the new ability that allows us to double attack on melee increases our damage significantly, the numbers just won't do. Right now I would saw that kitties are down about 60% in beta than what they would be on live atm. Again, this is with same gear, although I did switch out WFS for NES since NES is crap on beta and I didn't need to be ArP capped. That brings up the question: Is the removal of ArP what is killing melee dps? With NES I was at ArP softcap, just shy of crit cap, and pushing out over 10k ATP. Also, with the removal of FAP from weapons, I was over 3k less ATP than on live. Sorry for the ramblings, kinda came to a few conclusions while writing this:

ArP removal as well at removal of FAP leaves kitties close to 60% less damage on beta than live atm.


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
said by stvnbrs:

k, so I did some more testing last night on the beta. Currently in a good mix of 264 with a few 251 gear, (Feraless on Emerald Dream if you want to armory me) this is what I saw:

5 CP FB w/ SR was critting for about 6.2k (this is with the glyph that removes additional damage for energy glyph)

Mangle with SR was hitting for 3.3 avg.

I did not have recount going, but unless the new ability that allows us to double attack on melee increases our damage significantly, the numbers just won't do. Right now I would saw that kitties are down about 60% in beta than what they would be on live atm. Again, this is with same gear, although I did switch out WFS for NES since NES is crap on beta and I didn't need to be ArP capped. That brings up the question: Is the removal of ArP what is killing melee dps? With NES I was at ArP softcap, just shy of crit cap, and pushing out over 10k ATP. Also, with the removal of FAP from weapons, I was over 3k less ATP than on live. Sorry for the ramblings, kinda came to a few conclusions while writing this:

ArP removal as well at removal of FAP leaves kitties close to 60% less damage on beta than live atm.
You are correct. The major reasons for the huge 50 to 65% DPS loss is the removal of FAP ( Feral bonus AP from weapons) and the ArP changes.

From what is posted the changes are supposed to go live in the 4.0.1 patch which is thought to be tomorrow. That means Blizz will allow kitties to be broken on live servers. No more ICC as feral DPS. Not even sure if we could do Ulduar.

Many of the posters were theri usual obnoxius self and said they stopped reading or said it's PTR etc. Well this is serious because in my 4 years of playing WOW never has a class been this messed up (50% up to 65% DPS nerf) with a patch.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
TBH the class isn't broken or messed up, the numbers are just down. Numbers are easy to fix as has been said before. Implementing a new UI or class mechanic can take much more work and break in many ways. Kitties were left pretty much alone with the exception of a few new abilities, double auto-attacks, stampeding roar and skull bash. Nothing is ground breaking, they just need to adjust our numbers to fit more in line with what the caster dps is putting out.


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
said by stvnbrs:

TBH the class isn't broken or messed up, the numbers are just down. Numbers are easy to fix as has been said before. Implementing a new UI or class mechanic can take much more work and break in many ways. Kitties were left pretty much alone with the exception of a few new abilities, double auto-attacks, stampeding roar and skull bash. Nothing is ground breaking, they just need to adjust our numbers to fit more in line with what the caster dps is putting out.
Ture it's not broken in the sense that it will take new talents to fix. But when the 4.0.1 patch goes live I will no longer be able to go into ICC/Ulduar and who knows where else in a kitty spec. That is broken to me because I was trying to get a few Ulduar and ICC achievements and mounts.

I could tank but then our current tanks would have to drop out or change specs. So while the numbers will eventually be fixed and adjusted it does break the game for now and this prevents me from playing for the next few weeks (or until they change things).


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
can't go Shroomkin?


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
said by bTU:

can't go Shroomkin?
I could but my gear would suck. I knew I should have taken all those drops that we DE'd.


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
That makes complete sense, and is something that I am worried about myself. Thankfully, I have 5, 5k gs sets sitting in the bank including a tank set. More than likely, unless the kitty is fixed prior, I will hang up my kitty for bear and boomkin. With tank queues as fast as they are, I am hoping to amass a boomie set quickly. This of course assumes that heroics don't become impossibly difficult or that players don't fail.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Goodmongo
You obciously never played a fury warrior when TG had a -15% chance to hit with your OH weapon in the beginning of Wrath.

Every class is having problems with specific things, as stated above. Almost every melee class that enjoyed Arpen (Frost DKs, Fury Warriors, ferals and combat rogues) are seeing huge drops in dps. Most of you who are experienced enough with WoW should have seen this coming when Blizz told us all that arpen was going the way of the dodo.

For those of you who don't understand, let me spell it out for you. The mobs you are hitting are no longer being "debuffed" by your arpen because it doesn't exist. Therefore you are hitting mobs for what you WOULD have been hitting them for without arpen pre-4.0/Beta/PTR.

Now, Blizz DID tune the Beta/PTR for 85 because that is what they are interested in testing, not the inbetween levels. They will work on tuning the damage between levels 80-85 a few weeks after Cataclysm hits, but until then they will probably leave it alone, similar to what they did with Vani-BC and BC-Wrath.

Also, what target dummies are you hitting? If you are hitting the Grandmaster Dummy (skull ?? mob) it is possible you are hitting the level 88 boss dummy. I would try my numbers out on the level 80 dummy if I was just 80 and the level 85 dummy (if it exists). If you are hitting a [Skull] mob it means on of two things:

1) The mob is more than 4 levels higher than your current level
2) It's a boss level mob which means it is level 88.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
I was hitting a lvl 80 target dummy. Unfortunately, ferals have been hit particularly hard with the implementation of new stats. Not only do ferals loose the ArP, but we are also loosing out on the FAP that we currently get from weapons. This translated to 3k less ATP along with no ArP... so we hit fully armored mobs for less. That is what hurts. Also, kitties are loosing 10 expertise rating as the talent no longer exists, so unless you have an over-abundance on that stat, you will loose dps from that as well. Not to mention, our crit chance has gone down as well. Current kitties that were brushing several hard and soft caps prior to this expansion will find that they are very far from the place they were, and unfortunately, unless numbers are tweaked, do not have any way to make up the difference. Even with Mastery at lvl 85 in full 333 gear, you still don't do the same amount of damage as current ferals do in live. We have had a great run as high dps specs, but that looks to be over unless Blizz listens to the masses on this one.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
Aside from the removal of FAP and Arpen, almost all your problems can be fixed with better gear. You are going to suck at level 80 in cataclysm. Imagine how a fury warrior felt. A lot of what you guys are talking about is in a raiding environment, which does not equal leveling enviroment.

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now. It was my understanding that unless you had top notch gear, feral dps was crap (similar to fury warriors). A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.

Also, without hard numbers (I mean combatlog parses, which you can read without uploading to WoL/WWS) and testing, somewhere around 100-200 dps tests on a patchwerk style fight, you can never really know what your dps should/could/will be.

I am guessing that even EJ has done somethings in this area as well. Your best bet would be just a wait and see game before crying about the sky falling.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
Well at least my hunter was doing 12K dps on heroics in the PTR.. but the dream came to a halt on the latest build... they nerf pet damage to the ground and BM is no longer that good, except for the ancient hysteria (BL) buff

Will have to go survival that's the top end dmg spec on 4.0.1


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Tirael
*sigh*
As I have said many times over in this thread, ferals are good on the mechanics department, numbers just need to be adjusted. Unfortunately, even with lvl 85 gear and spec, kitty dps is lagging behind. Bears currently do more damage than kitties solo. This is a specific numbers issue. The problem lies in that raiding kitties such as myself, will find their dps contributions severely cut down, which for guilds still tryint to progress doesn't help much.

Also, feral dps doesn't need huge amounts of gear to do decent dps, just a skilled player, now skill still doesn't cut it, and neither does gear. Again, this is a numbers issue, but for current kitties, we may be a rare breed come the patch if they aren't adjusted prior.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Tirael
said by Tirael:

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now........ A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.
I just said the same thing you did. (hint: read the bolded text)
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


Goodmongo

@167.6.247.x
reply to Tirael
said by Tirael:

Aside from the removal of FAP and Arpen, almost all your problems can be fixed with better gear. You are going to suck at level 80 in cataclysm. Imagine how a fury warrior felt. A lot of what you guys are talking about is in a raiding environment, which does not equal leveling enviroment.

Everyone and I mean EVERY single class is having the same issues with dps that ferals are having right now. It was my understanding that unless you had top notch gear, feral dps was crap (similar to fury warriors). A lot of it may just be that (like A LOT of new talents) that the numbers are there as placeholders just to see how they work in a rotation, then as cata gets closer, you see Blizz buff their damage substantially.

Also, without hard numbers (I mean combatlog parses, which you can read without uploading to WoL/WWS) and testing, somewhere around 100-200 dps tests on a patchwerk style fight, you can never really know what your dps should/could/will be.

I am guessing that even EJ has done somethings in this area as well. Your best bet would be just a wait and see game before crying about the sky falling.
I think you miss what we are saying here. I know other classes have been hit. Said so myself. But no class has been hit with a 60%+ reduction in DPS. I can't ever recall that big of a drop at anytime.

Gear is not the issue unless they add back FAP to gear which they won't. Tons of posts on EJ as saying what I'm saying. They have done the tests and looked at combat logs. things are bad.

Yes maybe by Cata release things will be better. But that means we can't do squat right now as this will impact us starting with 4.0.1 release. No more raiding for mounts or achievements. There are numerous posts of kitties who did 12 to 15K dps in ICC now doing under 5K on the PTR. Some is fixed by gem changes and trinket changes. But that is a huge drop.

As for waiting we are seeing what is going on right now on the PTR. this is not something that MIGHT happen but is going to happen with the next update. It's not based on rotations, gear knowing your class etc. The top feral druids in the world are saying this.

I also played a fury warrior and that is nothing compared to this situation. Will things get better? Yes I'm positive they will. But for about 2 months I won't be able to raid as a kitty.

blackthought

join:2010-04-08
Phoenix, AZ
well maybe it's a good thing 4.0.1 didn't drop today, they have a week to fix things, because I swear if 4 doesn't drop next tuesday i'm going to write a strongly worded letter to the customer service department.
--
»www.nomorenoob.com - Wow help site
Noob of the month - »www.nomorenoob.com/p/noob-of-month.html


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5
reply to Goodmongo
Agreed.
4 reasons:
removal of 10 expertise rating,
removal of FAP,
removal or ArP,
loss of 8% crit (gained back at lvl 85)

I jumped on the PTR last night and tried to test out my current kitty, char xfer was slow, so I used a premade. I won't post numbers, as I want to do a side-by-side comparison of same characters with similar gear, but crit did seem lower than I remember it should be with the premade gear. This may be due to the 8% crit that we won't get for Master Shapeshifter talents until lvl 85. Hopefully tonight I can do more testing. One thing is clear though, kitties will see a significant drop in ALL IMPORTANT STATS in the new patch unless numbers are fixed. This will lead to SIGNIFICANT DPS LOSS.