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Voorin
Anon
2010-Oct-20 4:34 am
[ Raiding] Fury Warrior - 4.01 > RaidingOk,
First incase people want to check armory.
Area : EU Server : Chamber Of Aspects Name : Kromm
On boss fights in ICC I'm averaging around 13k dps - now the problem is that I feel I could be doing 15+, but I constantly have to stop using abilites & going onto auto attack due to massive threat problems.
My total damage done for one boss fight was actually 2nd, but the frost DK (who was only doing 9k dps) - was first, due to me spending around 30% of the fight not attacking.
Is it just a case of fail tanks, or do warrior produce stupid amounts of threat now.
I find when i string x2 30k HS crits, then 20k+ BT crit then a double 20k RB crit my TPS hits levels much higher than the tank.
I know tank dps seems to have been lowered & that AoE threat was reduced, but I was not aware of any particular single target threat reduction also. |
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ImmerGentleman Premium Member join:2010-01-07 Evans, GA |
Immer
Premium Member
2010-Oct-20 8:19 am
I'd be interested to see your TPS on a target dummy (this is where I wish Omen Threat meter had a way of holding onto data after a fight). At least that way other tanks can test their single target rotations to see how they compare? just a thought. |
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BlockgorillaSarcasm is my native tongue join:2010-02-11 Wichita, KS |
to Voorin
I know my tank buddies are complaining about dps' threat being 100 times worse than pre-4.01 and these are tanks in H LK farm guilds. |
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hsindogg Premium Member join:2002-06-21 Potomac, MD |
to Voorin
All dps threat reduction talents are gone from what I've seen, because Blizzard has increased tank "Stances" to give 200% threat.
Are rogues ToT the MT and Hunter's MD'ing? Hunter's should continue to MD for 3-4 MD rotations.
Also, we have a new mechanic, Vengeance. As the fight goes on, our TPS should increase because of Vengeance.
I warrior tank, and I've only had threat problems in very short fights where Boomkins and Mages are pulling 30k TPS.
What you should do is let your raid leader know you're TPS capping and that you have to hold back. He/She should then ask about rogue ToT and hunter MD's.
Also, Druids should give the tank Thorns since that actually does a decent amount of damage now. |
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BlockgorillaSarcasm is my native tongue join:2010-02-11 Wichita, KS |
rogue tricks is broken, the threat gained from the tricks falls off after 30seconds, IIRC. |
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Voourin to hsindogg
Anon
2010-Oct-20 10:16 am
to hsindogg
Indeedy.
It seems our tanks cand handle the threat as soon as it gets about 11k dps - when i start to push into 12k i start to catch up - 13k climing fast.... then just about to hit deathwish & boom... 98% threat ...
I'm already using all of the BoS by 50% in, I'm also waiting for 10 seconds at the start of the fight, as if all my auto attacks crit, along with all of my special attacks i can easiyl rip agro off the tank.
My only concern is that
A = I'm in no way an amazing warrior, ok ive been playing this warrior scince vanilla (i rem taking him into zul gurrab whe it was new :P), but it was a different game then + i skipped TBC while i was AWOL from the game.
B = My gear isnt "that" good - I dont even have 266 sanctified armor, using non heroic level 266 weapons (one of which is a pvp weapon) - only just got WFS to go with hak war troken ... :/
I'm genuinly worried that if i corrected all of my gems, got some marks of sanctification/new bracers/neck I wont be able to raid with my guild - as i will literally be spending 30/40% of the fight doing nothing.
This problem only started last week... |
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hsindogg Premium Member join:2002-06-21 Potomac, MD 2 edits |
hsindogg
Premium Member
2010-Oct-20 11:09 am
What kind of threat are your tanks pulling, sustained?
I'm around 18-19k TPS sustained.
26 expertise, 6% hit - I also have 1/3 Incite, 2/2 Imp Revenge, and all the glyphs that increase tank damage (Shield Slam, Devastate). |
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Ghastlyone Premium Member join:2009-01-07 Nashville, TN |
to Voorin
Your tanks must be pretty terrible for a Fury Warrior to be catching them in threat. Seriously.
I'm averaging 17-18k DPS on boss fights on my Warlock and I come no where near our tanks in threat. |
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Bodybagger Premium Member join:2010-03-30 Saint Matthews, SC |
to Voorin
If you have a hunter in the group they NEED to be using MD now... I have the same prob on my war. As soon as I start throwing out DPS, I'm 80-90% threat in no time. And if you have a pally in the group.. tell him to Salv you. Alot of abilities before 4.0 weren't really being used. Well they took out talents of things that they thought weren't needed but kept things that are needed. I'm assuming they want people to play the game using almost all of the abilities their toon has. Adds a little more 'skill' to the game I guess you could say. But always consider this.. There will be more patches and fixes in the future. |
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hsindogg Premium Member join:2002-06-21 Potomac, MD |
to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone:Your tanks must be pretty terrible for a Fury Warrior to be catching them in threat. Seriously. I'm averaging 17-18k DPS on boss fights on my Warlock and I come no where near our tanks in threat. Ranged dps have a 130% threat buffer, melee have a 110% buffer. |
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to Ghastlyone
Hmm - it could be our tanks. But I have spoken to other fury warriors who are having similar problems /w good tanks also. As a warlock you have an amazing 90% threat reduction on a 2m cooldown, threat is a non issue . Also as my 2nd character is a warlock I was doing 14k on the guild alt run last week & was nowhere near threat. Not to mention even if I did start to "ride the threat wave", I could use the aforementioned soulshatter. Threat seems very spiky as a fury warrior, my DK/Warlock/Pally don't seem to be having this problem. |
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Ghastlyone Premium Member join:2009-01-07 Nashville, TN |
said by Viarin :As a warlock you have an amazing 90% threat reduction on a 2m cooldown, threat is a non issue . Also as my 2nd character is a warlock I was doing 14k on the guild alt run last week & was nowhere near threat. Since the patch, I've only had to use Soulshatter 1 time, and that was in a pug VoA. Our ICC guild raids though, I still haven't had to Shatter even once. |
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TiraelBOHICA Premium Member join:2009-03-18 Sacramento, CA |
to hsindogg
I am pulling 16k-17k dps on my dk as unholy and our tanks threat is WAY above mine (we use warrior/dk for tanking ICC). |
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Ghastlyone Premium Member join:2009-01-07 Nashville, TN |
to Voorin
I guess I'd have to see it in person, a Fury Warrior only doing 13k DPS managing to pull aggro on a raid boss.
Your tanks must be AFK auto attacking for that to happen. |
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i would agree were i not seeing reports of fury warriors pulling threat too? Maybe something is broken in the fury or warrior talents that is giving us extra threat? |
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to Voorin
Well one of the two Fury warriors in my guild (both have Shadowmourne's) reforged to all hit and got to the 27% DW hard cap. He claims his dps went up considerably and his threat did too. Now I hate him for it. I'm always telling to lower his hit rating to help me out. |
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TiraelBOHICA Premium Member join:2009-03-18 Sacramento, CA |
to blackthought
Your threat has always been there but it was kept in check by Improved Berserker Stance's threat reduction. Now that it is gone, you will see an increase in your threat as dps. The problem with warrior dps is that it is bursty. One second, you are doing 8k-9k normal hits then all of the sudden you get a string of crits that brings your damage way up. This has always been the issue with TG.
Either way, your tanks need to step up their game. The time for lazy threat generation is over. |
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quatra Premium Member join:2003-06-22 Matthews, NC |
to Voorin
Do you outgear your tanks? |
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hsindogg Premium Member join:2002-06-21 Potomac, MD |
hsindogg
Premium Member
2010-Oct-20 8:02 pm
said by quatra:Do you outgear your tanks? hopefully for his sake he doesn't....dps should never outgear the tanks in a 25 man raiding guild. |
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quatra Premium Member join:2003-06-22 Matthews, NC |
quatra
Premium Member
2010-Oct-20 10:01 pm
While our tanks threat might be worse than before the patch I've not come close to pulling threat but our gear level is pretty much identical. I do have problems if I do a VoA pug or something with a strange tank. I don't think I've ever run a random heroic where I didn't pull aggro but that was true before the patch too.
I'm betting the OPs tanks haven't bothered to learn the changes in the new patch. |
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TiraelBOHICA Premium Member join:2009-03-18 Sacramento, CA |
Tirael
Premium Member
2010-Oct-20 10:41 pm
On my warrior (and even my dk) when I tank I am doing 20k tps (and about 4-5k damage to boot) on bosses in ICC. My warrior is my alt and tanking is my dk's OS, so if your MS tanks in your guild are having threat issues, they need to go back to tanking school. Seriously, threat is lol easy to generate now (at least as a dk and a warrior). |
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Viroon
Anon
2010-Oct-21 6:13 am
Did another ICC last night (10m) - Exactly the same problem, hitting about 14k DPS then have to start auto attacking to reduce threat. My gear isnt amazing by any standard, neither is my rotation perfect - this is my worry, I'm not some l33t amazing warrior doing super dps with BiS gear. I'm sitting at about (self buffed) 5020 attack power 11% haste (iirc) 37% Crit 26.8% Hit The good thing was on Lady Deathwisper the touch of emfeeblment I pulled helped me out . I'll try out my tanks to see what I TPS is, comapre it to my warriors TPS output then I may need to "educate" my tanks. Also i've heard from friends that pugging ICC as a DPS warrior is a no-go. Constant threat pulling on anything. Heroics are a joke, I may as well Q as a tank tbh, even on bosses i pull threat now which is irritating to say the least. Warriors do need "some kind" of threat reduction talent, or perhaps an ability/ragedump or transfer. I guess a rage dump isnt in the style of a warrior, but maybe somthing like "tricks", or "misdirection". On the bright side I have now macroed "/Raid BoS ME!!!" to my deathwish ability. |
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to quatra
i find that hard to believe because even with a standard old spam heroic strike rotation from 3.x agro shouldn't be that much of a difference. I didn't realize till yesterday that the launcher was steadily loading hotfixes so i went back to my old rotation for starting and didn't use the rend+tlap early in fights, i tried swaping that up last night and it went just a Fukin ok. SO....
Even if the tank had his old rotation he's dong something wrong or afking for a few seconds. |
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Bodybagger Premium Member join:2010-03-30 Saint Matthews, SC |
to Voorin
Well we ran a 25 icc the other day and from what I experienced was either me, this other war a little bit better geared than me, or the tank had agro. The tank is geared about the same as me or the other war that was pulling from him. I'm not sure if it's something going on with the tanks new rotation(s) or something that is up with warrior threat. I noticed every heroic I've ran I end up tanking no matter what gear the actual tank is in. This kinda rules out the ICC buff factor. Anyway.. warriors should have an ability like the prot ability that can be put on a tank to transfer a % of threat to the tank instead of a % of threat back to the warrior. Just a thought... |
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Goodmongo to Viroon
Anon
2010-Oct-21 12:29 pm
to Viroon
said by Viroon :Did another ICC last night (10m) - Exactly the same problem, hitting about 14k DPS then have to start auto attacking to reduce threat. My gear isnt amazing by any standard, neither is my rotation perfect - this is my worry, I'm not some l33t amazing warrior doing super dps with BiS gear. I'm sitting at about (self buffed) 5020 attack power 11% haste (iirc) 37% Crit 26.8% Hit The good thing was on Lady Deathwisper the touch of emfeeblment I pulled helped me out . I'll try out my tanks to see what I TPS is, comapre it to my warriors TPS output then I may need to "educate" my tanks. Also i've heard from friends that pugging ICC as a DPS warrior is a no-go. Constant threat pulling on anything. Heroics are a joke, I may as well Q as a tank tbh, even on bosses i pull threat now which is irritating to say the least. Warriors do need "some kind" of threat reduction talent, or perhaps an ability/ragedump or transfer. I guess a rage dump isnt in the style of a warrior, but maybe somthing like "tricks", or "misdirection". On the bright side I have now macroed "/Raid BoS ME!!!" to my deathwish ability. Or just maybe furry warriors got over buffed in the hotfix and need a nerf. I've seen flurry warriros and DK's constantly pulling aggro. The healers just started to let them die till they learned. As feral kitty I hold back for 30 seconds before popping CD's and also use cower to reduce threat. |
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you shut your mouth we didn't get over nothing. |
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TiraelBOHICA Premium Member join:2009-03-18 Sacramento, CA |
to Goodmongo
Welcome to the old days of l2control your agro. |
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to Goodmongo
I do hold back for 30 seconds, I dont go all out at the start of the fight, I have played scince vanilla also, so I dont need lectures on WOTLK style dpsing.
You use cower, well ... here is the problem... we have NO agro dump.
This isn't a case of me not being able to manage agro - I'm riding at 97% happily but simply only doing 70% of my max dps due to lacking any realistic agro dumps.
The problem isnt the amount of DPS im doing either, as many other clases can pull much higher dps with the same tanks & not pull threat.
Because of threat reduction talents & threat reduction abilities.
I've been in raids with 18k DPS mages... fade
Ive been in raids with 17k Warlocks ... soul shatter... bamm 90% threat gone every 2mins
Ret pallys ... BoS or bubble ... and so on. |
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hsindogg Premium Member join:2002-06-21 Potomac, MD |
hsindogg
Premium Member
2010-Oct-22 9:18 am
Your tanks are bad. period. They need to learn new rotations, and understand what abilities give the most threat. |
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Bodybagger Premium Member join:2010-03-30 Saint Matthews, SC |
I tanked a heroic last night as fury and didn't lose agro on any mobs and didn't take much damage. =p Two others in the group were pulling 5k steady... easy. Hah! |
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