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slras

join:2006-04-10
Buffalo, NY

[DISH] Superstations WPIX and WWOR not in HD in my area

Does anyone know why Dish Network wont give us WPIX or WWOR in HD? We get WGN America and TBS which are also Superstations and they are in HD.

I've called them and they tell me that the provider that they get it from isn't offering it in HD for us. But as far as I know, the provider is the station themselves and they uplink the signal to the satellite.

I know that they are a local channel for New York City and NJ as well as parts of the lower Eastern Counties in New York State and they get them in HD.

If the provider is the station itself, wouldn't it be the same signal uplinked to Dish Network? And all they would have to do is send us it in HD?

I'm sure if I were to tell them that I moved to NYC and gave them a 212 area code phone number, they would send an update to my receiver and I would get the NYC locals in HD even though I am in Buffalo.

Or, if I had a friend in NYC who has DN and they added another receiver to their account but let me be the one to use it in Buffalo and I paid them the extra $5.00 or $6.00 a month that I could get these stations too.

It would be the same if I were someone with an RV who could travel across country but still have my home in Buffalo but took the receiver with me on vacation to California or somewhere else, all I would have to do is aim the dish at the satellites and I would still get my locals from Buffalo.

I called Intertech, but they don't have any programming or station information.

Thank you.

Happydude32
Premium
join:2005-07-16
kudos:1

1 edit
First WGN and TBS arn't superstations. The WGN you get isn't the same as if you lived in Chicago and watched it OTA on channel 9. Same goes for TBS in Atlanta. These are national feeds of local channels NOT superstations. Programming on WGN 9 and WGN America differ greatly, WTBS and TBS not so much.

quote:
I'm sure if I were to tell them that I moved to NYC and gave them a 212 area code phone number, they would send an update to my receiver and I would get the NYC locals in HD even though I am in Buffalo.
Yes it's called 'moving', it's a gray area. But you'd lose all Buffalo channels, and not that it matters since Dish Network doesn't have it anymore, but you'd no longer get Sabres games. But you still would not get WWOR HD or WPIX HD anyhow.

quote:
Or, if I had a friend in NYC who has DN and they added another receiver to their account but let me be the one to use it in Buffalo and I paid them the extra $5.00 or $6.00 a month that I could get these stations too.
Account stacking is frowned upon. And even if you did this you still would not get what you want.

quote:
It would be the same if I were someone with an RV who could travel across country but still have my home in Buffalo but took the receiver with me on vacation to California or somewhere else, all I would have to do is aim the dish at the satellites and I would still get my locals from Buffalo.
No you won't. Google the term, Spotbeam Satellite. You have a lot of misconceptions about locals on satellite. Since NYC and LA locals are used as distant networks they are on CONUS transponders, that’s the big four only. ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX. WWOR HD and WPIX HD are on the spotbeams and from the map, it appears the range of the spotbeam they are on does not reach Buffalo. It is physically and geographically impossible for you to get WWOR and WPIX in HD living in WNY no matter what method you try to use to try to trick Dish into give you NYC locals.


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slras

join:2006-04-10
Buffalo, NY
reply to slras
Thank you Steve.

I know TBS used to be referred to as "Superstation TBS". I am aware that what we get is WGN America and sometimes it is different programming than what People in Chicago get on WGN.

When I was thinking Superstation for WGN I meant KWGN (Denver) as that is also a Superstation that DN offers. They also offer Superstations, KTLA (Los Angeles) and WSBK (Boston), but we're only subscribing to WPIX and WWOR.

We don't really watch Sports Channels and actually have them blocked so they don't show up in the guide and it's less stations we have to scroll through when trying to find something to watch.

Our SD locals are on the 110 or 119 and not "Spotbeam" but that's not important. Our local SD channels 17 and 26 are on 61.5 "Spotbeam" 13 but they aren't in HD on DN. We can get them in HD OTA with the DTA Converter box for our bedroom TV and our built-in Analog/Digital tuner in our HDTV in the living room. I should've specified that I should be able to receive some of our locals in SD if I were to travel across Country just not all of them..

And with the "stacking" when we had DirecTV, Initially, I was going to let my family have a receiver on my account but they wouldn't get their locals that way and they ended up getting their own system installed. But I took our receiver to VT to visit my family and connected it to their dish and was able to get our Buffalo programming. We didn't have HD then but still got our local channels.

When we had DirecTV and used to go camping, we met other campers who had DirecTV and one was from Texas and he was able to get his channels from Texas but obviously had to re-aim the dish using the Buffalo Zip Code to get the azimuth, tilt, etc. in order to receive the satellites. He wasn't able to get any Buffalo stations being his receiver was programmed for Texas.

I was just curious about the reasons that we can't get WPIX and WWOR in HD, but the map you provided gives me a better understanding. Maybe if in the future, DN decides to change the satellites or transponders they will give us WPIX and WWOR in HD

I know that DN and DirecTV are two separate entities but figured that since we were able to still get our Buffalo channels when I took our receiver to VT that DN might work the same way. Then too, HD was just starting to become available on TV and not sure if it was available on satellite yet.

Another thing I don't understand is when I had DirecTV and asked them why we couldn't get WPIX or WWOR, they told me that it had to do with a Local Direct Marketing Area or something, I can't remember the exact term they used and being we already get our local CW station we couldn't get a Distant Network channel.

We still got WGN America from Chicago and TBS from Atlanta but WPIX and WWOR are much closer to us than WGN America and TBS are so I don't understand how Dish Network can give us WPIX and WWOR, but DirecTV can't.

Even Time-Warner says they can't give us WPIX or WWOR. I don't know about FIOS because we can't get it in Buffalo until Verizon pre-wires the entire City.

Anyways, I thank you for your input.

Susan

Happydude32
Premium
join:2005-07-16
kudos:1
Years and years ago the FCC came up with 'Superstations'. They were local channels they could be made available nationally by cable operators and on C-Band satellite. WCTG (the predecessor to WTBS) , WGN, WPIX, WWOR, WSBK, KTLA and KWGN, were the only superstations and will be the only superstations. Back in the '80s and '90s many many cable systems around the country carried some or all of these channels.

I live in Buffalo, well actually Marilla, small rural town on the very Eastern edge of Erie County. Years ago WWOR and WPIX were carried on cable here. But when channel 49 switched from TBN to WB affiliation a lot of the programming on WPIX was blacked out. The old cable company that covered my area, Cablevision, no relation to the Cablevision in NYC, was purchased in the early '90s by Time Warner and we became integrated into the TW Rochester franchise. After a while Time Warner removed WWOR and WPIX. Adelphia was never my cable provider, I’m on a totally different system then those in Buffalo, Niagara Falls and the main suburbs so I’m not sure if they ever carried any of the superstations.

DirecTV never opted to carry the superstation package and never will. This is pretty much a dead issue, and the demise of the superstation package on Dish Network has been predicted for years now. I had Dish Network from December ’98 to February ’04 and had the superstation package for most of my time with them. Mainly had the for the sports, but also liked to watch the news on WPIX and the KTLA Morning Show.

And unless things have changed, Buffalo SD locals are on one of the spotbeam satellites located at the 110 orbital location with WNED and WNLO being on 61.5. Not sure about HD locals. As for Intertech, they’re the worst! We ordered locals on Dish the day they became available and set up the install for the second dish. The install was totally sloppy, the tech fucked up the SW64 and a few days later we lost all even transponders on 119 and they wouldn’t come out to fix it for another 2 weeks.

To my knowledge Buffalo locals were never on a CONUS satellite or transponder

Here’s the map of the area the spotbeam that Buffalo locals are on covers.

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slras

join:2006-04-10
Buffalo, NY
Hi Steve,

Thanks again.

Initially when I was telling you what transponders etc., our locals were on, I didn't wait long enough for "Transponder" to change to "Spotbeam" So, I've gone through the channels and signal strength and this is what I come up with:
Ch's 2, 4, 7, 29 SD are on 110 Transponder 27 Spotbeam
Ch's 2, 4, 7 HD are on 61.5 Transponder 13 Spotbeam
Ch 17 and 23 SD are on 61.5 Transponder 13 Spotbeam
Ch 23 HD is on 61.5 Transponder 13 Spotbeam
Ch 26 SD is on 61.5 Transponder 13 Spotbeam
Ch 49 SD is on 61.5 Transponder 13 Spotbeam
Ch 51 SD is on 119 Transponder 14
WPIX Ch 234 is on 119 Transponder 20
WWOR Ch 238 is on 119 Transponder 20

Back in the 1960's I was living in VT and we had COX Cable TV (which later became Adelphia and now it's ComCast) and received channels 2 - 13.

This was way before the converter boxes. We got our local channels, 3, 5, 22 and 33. They also gave us channel 2 CBFT, 6 CBMT, 7 CJOH and 12 CFCF from Quebec, and also gave us WRGB from Schenectady, NY.

After Channel 2 CBFT went off the air at night, they would give us WCBS from New York. We also got WPIX on Channel 11. We also got WMTW Channel 8 from Maine. I thought it was WMTV, but they could've changed call letter over the years, but it was channel 8 and an ABC affiliate.

A few years later if our the Canadian stations were showing something that was on our local CBS, NBC or ABC affiliates, they would actually put our local channel on the Canadian channel on our dial or they would have a message on the screen stating that because this program is available on our local channel the FCC requires them to black out duplicate programming. Or, something to that effect. This was over 40 years ago and my memory ain't what it used to be lol.

Initially, when I first got satellite in 1997, I had USSB for HBO Showtime, etc and DirecTV for all the other stuff. I can't say for sure if DirecTV was called something else at the time and then they bought out USSB. I believe the dish was a single LNB too.

At the time, you could buy the equipment and install it yourself. (I was raised in an electronics/electrical/technical environment/family so I know how to do a lot of things) When I moved to Buffalo, I brought my equipment with me being the dish wasn't permanently mounted. I had it on a piece of plywood cut to fit a window opening so I didn't need the landlord's permission to install it. As it turned out, the window I wanted to use when I moved to Buffalo was about the same size and almost facing the same direction so I didn't really have to do much to tweak the signal.

Then we switched to Dish Network as they were offering some of our local channels but DirecTV wasn't. At that time I also subscribed to the Superstation package and was pretty pleased except that to get the rest of our locals, we needed another dish and the landlord wouldn't let us install a dish permanently on the house being they just had vinyl siding done.

When I did the install for Dish Network, it was a Dish 500 dual LNB and each had two cables going from the LNB's to 2 switches/splitters and two cables came from them went to each receiver.

Now, the 61.5 ties in to either the 110 or 119 LNB which are already tied into each other, so there is only 1 cable coming from the dish going into the house and our receiver. We have the Vip722 DVR-HD and then the cable Connects to a switch/splitter for the two tuner inputs and then there are two outputs that go to both TV's though for the living room, we are using the HDMI connection instead of the coax.

A few months later, DirecTV was offering all our local channels so we switched back and but I had to buy a new 3 LNB dish and used receivers off eBay in order to install it myself or DirecTV would charge me to have it installed. But by switching back, I lost the Superstation package.

We moved to another apartment about a year ago and there were both A DirecTV Dish and 2 Dish Network dish's already here so all I had to do was connect the cables from the DirecTV dish to our receivers.

In February after several ongoing problems with DirecTV we switched to Dish Network and of course, they sent Intertech to do the install.

The 110 -119 dish was loose so he decided to replace the whole thing and also at the time, being the 61.5 was tight he didn't have to do anything with it. The only problem with that dish is it is up high on the house while the other is on our deck so if it were to get covered with snow, we couldn't brush the 61.5 off.

He checked the signal strength and it was "good" but as it started getting warmer out we noticed our HD channels losing signal even if it was just a light mist/drizzle. I realized that there is a tree in our back yard where the 61.5 is aimed, and in February, there weren't any leaves on the tree.

So DN sent Intertech out and he moved the dish even higher on the house (At least now, if it gets covered with snow we can just reach out the attic window to brush of the snow)

But we still had signal problems with just a light rain so they sent us a replacement receiver but then when we lost signal the receiver would lock up for 10 minutes and shut down and reboot. So, after all the trouble shooting, they decided to send us another receiver and everything was fine after that until last week when all our HD channels were depixelizing and sound cutting out. I don't want to rehash this as I already did this in a different thread.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help/advice.

Susan


Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1

4 edits
said by slras:

Hi Steve,

This was way before the converter boxes. We got our local channels, 3, 5, 22 and 33. They also gave us channel 2 CBFT, 6 CBMT, 7 CJOH and 12 CFCF from Quebec, and also gave us WRGB from Schenectady, NY.

And yes because the antennas seemed to be not terribly directional CBC 6 and WRGB 6 usually looked like crap... though being nearer CBC was usually OK but still a dirty signal
Same thing with WMTW 8 and CJOH 7 (Ottowa as I recall) Both so distant even co-channel they interfered with each other.
quote:
After Channel 2 CBFT went off the air at night, they would give us WCBS from New York. We also got WPIX on Channel 11. We also got WMTW Channel 8 from Maine. I thought it was WMTV, but they could've changed call letter over the years, but it was channel 8 and an ABC affiliate.
Don't remember ever seeing WCBS but was there in the 70's. I do remember the late night French soft porn on Ch 2 though English CBC never dared do.

It ALWAYS been WMTW (for Mt Washington where the transmitter is... studios in Poland Springs ME)

BTW I used to work for Ch 22 WEZF/WNYT 78-84
quote:
A few years later if our the Canadian stations were showing something that was on our local CBS, NBC or ABC affiliates, they would actually put our local channel on the Canadian channel on our dial.
Though Canadians often ran US shows at different times so not so often. They did do that with WMTW and 22 though too (ABC) and used to tick me off they would not switch off 22 at 4pm when 8 was showing old Dark Shadows instead of the Edge of night. Sometimes had to call the cable company, and they said it was rules.... and I'd tell them BS!!! I work for Ch 22 and ch 8 does not run Edge of Night it is not same programing now push the damn button since your clock has screwed up
Ahhh back in the day you could actually call the local cable office and get a real person.
quote:
At the time, you could buy the equipment and install it yourself. (I was raised in an electronics/electrical/technical environment/family so I know how to do a lot of things)
no you mean you HAD to or pay someone to yourself they would refer you to.
--
»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)

slras

join:2006-04-10
Buffalo, NY
Hi Steve,

It used to get me mad too when the cable company wouldn't switch back to the regular channel. After all, we were paying to get that specific channel.

The cable company often didn't switch back to the Canadian or other channel programming in time for a movie to start so if there was something we wanted to watch it we always missed the beginning.

Nowadays, you can't even press "0" to speak to a person when you call the cable companies. Then, you may not even be speaking to someone in the United States.

Thanks for the clarification about WMTW. Thinking back, I believe we got WMTW because channel 22 wasn't on the air yet so they continued giving us channel 8 even after 22 went on the air.

I was very surprised to see CBFT showing B&W nudity but Canadian rules are different the our FCC rules, and yes the the English channel never dared to do that.

It would've been the mid to late 1960's when CBFT went off the air that they gave us WCBS from NY. I don't know what year they stopped but we moved away in 1970 and when we moved back in 1975, they weren't giving WCBS anymore and a lot of the time, when CBFT stopped broadcasting, they had the SMPTE color bars and the 1kHz test tone so they really didn't go off the air anymore.

I also remember when Channel 3 among others would sign off, they would mention that they were licensed to broadcast on such and such frequency and wattage aural and visual by the Federal Communications Commission and they also had showed "Seal of Good Practice" and then played our National Anthem then sign off for the night.

When I bought my DirecTV equipment, they gave me a free install kit that came with 100 feet of coax and I think 50 feet of ground wire. I had to buy a 12 foot copper grounding rod from Home Depot.

I cant' remember for sure where I purchased my equipment, but I was allowed to install it myself. I could've paid to have it done but it was pretty straightforward. I want to say that within the last 5 - 7 years, they stopped letting customers buy receivers and stuff from electronic stores and started "leasing" the equipment to you and they had to send someone to install it for you and you had to return it to them when you canceled your service.

One thing I remember back in the late 1970's was that we could get free HBO or Showtime. I want to say Showtime. This was when they were both only one channel. We had a TV with the rotary tuner and a fine tuner and if I was on channel 7 and turned the fine tune all the way to the left I could watch it. It wasn't perfect, but was still watchable but then they started scrambling the signal.

I know that a lot of people don't realize that channels 2 - 6 VHF are in one frequency range 59 - 88 Mhz and then VHF 7 - 13 are in another 175 - 216 Mhz and that the gap between channel 6 and 7 are the UHF frequencies where cable TV would put some of the extra channels using a converter box. And being "Closed Circuit" or "Shielded" signal, it didn't interfere with the regular UHF channels for people using antennas.

Now a days, basically every channel is on the air 24 hours a day. Occasionally, someone at WGRZ, WIVB or WKBW will screw up when switching from the network feed to local and we will get the SMPTE color bars and the 1kHz test tone and it will show the network name and program that would be on but ti would be only for a few seconds.

I've noticed that sometimes the feed is from NY, but I think I've also seen it from Washington, DC. Also sometimes during a commercial break while it is a network feed, we could sometimes see the actual networks commercials with that stations ID. I know you usually don't have the network logo on the screen during a commercial, but what I'm referring to is just as the commercial ends, the network might show something like "coming up at 11:00 on CBS news" and then it would go back to the program.

I remember that Cable TV used to put different commercials on instead of what the actual channel was showing and sometimes they would still be running the commercial when the program was back on so we would miss a little of what we were watching. We don't have cable so I don't know if they still do that or not.

Susan


Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1

4 edits
said by slras:

It used to get me mad too when the cable company wouldn't switch back to the regular channel. After all, we were paying to get that specific channel.

Nowadays, you can't even press "0" to speak to a person when you call the cable companies. Then, you may not even be speaking to someone in the United States.

Thanks for the clarification about WMTW. Thinking back, I believe we got WMTW because channel 22 wasn't on the air yet so they continued giving us channel 8 even after 22 went on the air.
Yeah it was at least mid 60's
quote:
I was very surprised to see CBFT showing B&W nudity but Canadian rules are different the our FCC rules, and yes the the English channel never dared to do that.

I also remember when Channel 3 among others would sign off, they would mention that they were licensed to broadcast on such and such frequency and wattage aural and visual by the Federal Communications Commission and they also had showed "Seal of Good Practice" and then played our National Anthem then sign off for the night.

When I bought my DirecTV equipment, they gave me a free install kit that came with 100 feet of coax and I think 50 feet of ground wire. I had to buy a 12 foot copper grounding rod from Home Depot.

I know that a lot of people don't realize that channels 2 - 6 VHF are in one frequency range 59 - 88 Mhz and then VHF 7 - 13 are in another 175 - 216 Mhz and that the gap between channel 6 and 7 are the UHF frequencies where cable TV would put some of the extra channels using a converter box.
I've noticed that sometimes the feed is from NY, but I think I've also seen it from Washington, DC. Also sometimes during a commercial break while it is a network feed, we could sometimes see the actual networks commercials with that stations ID. I know you usually don't have the network logo on the screen during a commercial, but what I'm referring to is just as the commercial ends, the network might show something like "coming up at 11:00 on CBS news" and then it would go back to the program.


well yes all done by computer clock now and you see like CNN cut someone of for a HARD BREAK than means net spots but at end local cable/sat spots maybe that HAVE to happen at that exact time.Also whynot unusual you see the last few sec of a run of schedule buy out from the cable sat net in the wee hours for another on the local because the clocks don't quite match.... and that was my Job at Ch 22 master control... later the NON News They just said they were doing it.
quote:
I remember that Cable TV used to put different commercials on instead of what the actual channel was showing and sometimes they would still be running the commercial when the program was back on so we would miss a little of what we were watching. We don't have cable so I don't know if they still do that or not.


well again the same thing for frames of other spots you see today... its all on clockwork there is no humane being (why I got out of the biz... and while programming might still be on video tape, I guarantee you all commercial breaks are off a computer contoled HD. Which is why you can see the same spot on co owned stations like CNN and HLN... start 5 sec from each other but you are seing the same source on two different statons.... again why got out of the biz... no desire to be Jetsons button pushing clone.

In fact when I left TV WXXA TV23 originally independent but an original FOX affiliate...

Gave my 2 weeks and then telling him the solutionnotice in 94 again seeing the automation just babysitter BS coming on... and my boss forced me to take the new cart robotic machine training course I would never see on air.... yet TOTALLY embarrassed the corp trainer by asking him question after question he couldn't answer...and then showing him the solution.

Chieif Eng said to me you read the manual didn't you.... yes bored as hell shit yes and its still off line found every way I could to screw it up and recover from it... that wasn't in the manual.

A month after I moved to KW I was watching Tom Schnider on CNBC went to a break and went to black for 3 min.... came back and Tom said we had a Odetics crash... the VERY machne I had been training on and played with to its limits... that would have been 30 sec of dead air not 3 min.... I never so laughed my ass off so hard.

All the other around me never thought of that.... And by the way I should have been fired because when not challenged there was dead air here and there but cost always made it up to, but was just because I had that curiosity and fix things when others just said it broke not my fault.... I took out a screwdrivers changed the drive rubber band and went on and didn't loose spots.

and aginwith the new Odetics didn't surrender to bordom of airing the same episode of ALF for the 50th time I could switch by dialog forget ever looking at a clock. nO i HAVE A NEW OFFLINE TOY READ THE MANUAL now how can I when it doesn't mater screw it up as much as possible and recover??

Again rest of the staff had probally not read beyond the basic operating instruction. O how I loved that I would never see it on line and totally embarrassed the corp traner by saying whats NOT in the manual and heres hoe you fix it.

And actually relly liked my boss but never understood why he forced that training session on me except why out of boredom I had screwed up on air here and there... but when there was a challenge I would always rise to the situation and find the not in the manual fastest solution t the prolem vs by then FCC licencing had relinquished TV ops to people that might be fired by McDonalds...

And the 3/4" semi automation system before I worked with you hit the button a sec or two too soon it took a full thirty seconds to recue... well just struck me one day screw that just manually hit reverse scan on the lead deck a few sec and hit play the timecode would pick up and the entire break went flawlessly with only a sec or two of black no one would notice.... again because I played and explored... not just took a maunal/bible as only that and NOWHERE in there... play an exploration is good

--
»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)


Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to slras
said by slras:

It used to get me mad too when the cable company wouldn't switch back to the regular channel. After all, we were paying to get that specific channel.

Thanks for the clarification about WMTW. Thinking back, I believe we got WMTW because channel 22 wasn't on the air yet so they continued giving us channel 8 even after 22 went on the air.

Yes thinking about station my prehistory... I think they went on the air in 1967 so they were never a B&W station, but even when I arrived in 1978 it was pretty antiquated color stuff they probably mostly bought used from networks or net O&O's.

But Ch 8 stayed there at least through 1984. And actually when they started the local priority rule they did the same with Ch 6 when ever they were running CBS, it would be WCAX 3. Considering how bad 8 and 6 usually looked they really didn't have to do that as anyone would watch 3 and 22 for the better picture anyways.

Thought in markets that wasn't the case I can see why the rule came to be.
--
»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)