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droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME

SMTP Blocks

So does this mean residential fixed ISPs will have to take down their Port 25 blocks? That would be interesting if so.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
I'm sure the answer is "no" because they aren't preventing specific competitors' mail services from working, and the spam and such that originates from an open port 25 means that closing it could be considered "reasonable network management"

droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
It's a 'lawful application or service' and not all ISPs block Port 25, only some. For instance, my cable ISP (Time Warner) does not in this market.

I do question whether blocks on inbound ports at the ISP level would also be considered permitted for the same reason. Running a web server on your residential connection isn't unlawful, but plenty of ISPs block it.

I won't be the only one to ask these questions I figure.


56403739
Less than 5 months left
Premium
join:2006-03-08
Naples, FL
kudos:2
reply to droobie
This ruling has no effect on most network management port blocks, especially ones which have better alternatives available like port 25.

Now, if an ISP starts blocking application ports for things like Skype (as a theoretical example), there might be a case.

droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
Many things could be claimed in network management, like ISPs that block access to DNS servers outside of their network. Doesn't make it right or 'neutral' however. There's plenty of perfectly valid mail going over port 25 and not all DNS traffic is a DDOS attempt.

The only gain I see is that they have to apparently disclose such things. Being told you're going to be hit with a bat before being hit with said bat is a gain, but a pretty insignificant one in most cases since you're likely getting hit either way.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
reply to droobie
"Reasonable netwrk management" is vague enough that nobody will have to do anything different from what they are doing now.

cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA
reply to iansltx
Just to play devil's advocate... assuming you want to take the responsibility, wouldn't running your own mail server make you a competitor to your ISP's mail service?

droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME

1 recommendation

You assume that all ISPs provide a mail service. Two of the local WISPs here do not provide e-mail in any form. I wouldn't be surprised if more people are pointed toward GMail in the future either.

My argument is that in a 'neutral' environment, I should be allowed to connect to any place on the Internet that is 'legal' to do so. The 'access provider' is supposed to be giving me pure unadulterated access to the Internet of some defined amount for a certain price. They're effectively 'blocking' access to the Internet in some form.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of spam that goes around on Port 25. At the same time, I'm sure there's plenty of questionable materials going around on Port 80. By blocking outgoing or incoming ports, though, they're not 'neutral'. The fact that only 'some' access providers block these things, and others do not, means that it isn't a 'norm' either.

I think the whole Net Neutrality thing is goofy anyway, but it seems they've not passed 'neutrality', they've passed some goofy rules about marketing. Perhaps I'm being myopic.

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to droobie
said by droobie:

So does this mean residential fixed ISPs will have to take down their Port 25 blocks? That would be interesting if so.

Nothing personal.. but I don't care to see any port 25 blocks removed on residential accounts. I'm perfectly happy not having zombie-computers sending me messages about Brittney Spear's anything..

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to iansltx
said by iansltx:

"Reasonable netwrk management" is vague enough that nobody will have to do anything different from what they are doing now.

BINGO! So the question is.. what's with all the circus acts going on at the FCC these days? Going off of what Karl posted, alone, its safe to say "nothing to see here"..

thedragonmas

join:2007-12-28
Albany, GA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to droobie
you do realize that port 25 is server to server and you should be using port 587 for client to server? »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Mai···Protocol

additionally some isps allow port 25 for there email ON NETWORK. i.e. if your using a laptop at home on XYZ isp port 25 usually will work, but if you go off network i.e. on vacation and your hotel uses ABC isp port 25 submissions wont work. thus why you SHOULD be using port 587.

as to your subject at hand. i see your point. i really do. i dont have a problem with an isp blocking specific ports if they are up front and clear about it. by that i mean easy to find and not burried in 8pt font some where in the TOS.

blocking ports 25,80,8080, and several "windows" ports (i.e. netbios) is apparantly standard for most isp on a residential connection. those same isp's usually do NOT block "any" ports for a business class connection.

now if isp's start blocking ports for say, skype, vonage. etc then id have a problem with it.

ofcourse theyl use "reasonable network management" to block ports used for P2P even legitimate p2p (i.e. linux distro's)


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
Nonsense. You're now going to claim I should be running my domain's email only on port 587. This will effectively cut my domain off. My user population will only have outbound service. "Noone" will be trying to contact my MTA on 587, they'll be going in on the standard 25.

I for one do not think blocking TCP/25 in either direction is "reasonable network management." ISPs will try to claim their MTAs are somehow better than mine, but I don't agree. I'm not a spambot or zombie, I think if it weren't for the residential ToS, my MTA is perfectly legitimate.

I fail to see (except for the nebulous "network management clauses") how blocking SMTP or HTTP is any different than blocking Skype or BitTorrent, and therefore shouldn't be blocked or hampered at all.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.


Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
said by rchandra:

I for one do not think blocking TCP/25 in either direction is "reasonable network management."

I am inclined to agree with you, but "I for one" and myself for two probably won't pass muster. What does the industry generally do and (importantly) why do they do it?

I think enough ISPs block port 25 outgoing and enough mail administrators recommend doing so that ISPs would be able to defend an accusation of unlawful blocking as "reasonable network management."

Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Cape Cod, MA -- KE1MO
Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords

thedragonmas

join:2007-12-28
Albany, GA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to rchandra
said by rchandra:

Nonsense. You're now going to claim I should be running my domain's email only on port 587. This will effectively cut my domain off. My user population will only have outbound service. "Noone" will be trying to contact my MTA on 587, they'll be going in on the standard 25.

I for one do not think blocking TCP/25 in either direction is "reasonable network management." ISPs will try to claim their MTAs are somehow better than mine, but I don't agree. I'm not a spambot or zombie, I think if it weren't for the residential ToS, my MTA is perfectly legitimate.

I fail to see (except for the nebulous "network management clauses") how blocking SMTP or HTTP is any different than blocking Skype or BitTorrent, and therefore shouldn't be blocked or hampered at all.

actually id tell you to get a business class account for your business. 99% of home users have no need for their own mail server, and isp's can easyly claim SPAM controll for blocking use of mail and webservers on residential accounts.

as for smtp or http being different than skype or bittorrent thats a simple one for the isp's. skype isnt used to send spam, and theyd LOVE to kill off bittorrent if givin the chance.

im playing devils advocate here. id love to be able to run my own server from home, would save me a good chunk of change in hosting costs. but i all so understand why isp's block them on residential accounts. if i really wanted too i could get a business account and call it a day. and if that was cheaper than my hosting id do it.


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
said by thedragonmas:

skype isnt used to send spam

(Shhh, don't tell the [non-]carriers, but, yes it is.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Cape Cod, MA -- KE1MO
Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords

droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME

1 recommendation

reply to thedragonmas
said by thedragonmas:

actually id tell you to get a business class account for your business. 99% of home users have no need for their own mail server, and isp's can easyly claim SPAM controll for blocking use of mail and webservers on residential accounts.

As an 'access' provider, the electric company does not query the brand, model, or use of my clothes dryer.

If the original intention was to give everyone 'neutral access' to the Internet (similar to a utility, as some online have mentioned), it should be across all protocols and ports, not some for the 'rich business folks' and some for the 'little residential people'.

I'm not talking about speed tiers or 'extras' (like hosting, Static IP, rDNS, etc.) here, I'm talking specifically about access.

said by thedragonmas:

as for smtp or http being different than skype or bittorrent thats a simple one for the isp's. skype isnt used to send spam, and theyd LOVE to kill off bittorrent if givin the chance.

I think your concept of Skype not being used to send spam is incorrect. I get spam from any 'instant message' based service, including AIM, ICQ, MSN, etc. Skype isn't unique in this regard.

Bittorrent has a sufficient amount of 'illegal' activity and can generate havoc on a network. Why wouldn't 'reasonable network management' apply there?

I would expect the ratio of legal/illegal content flying around the Internet is somewhere in the ballpark of (or worse than) the ratio of ham/spam on Port 25.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to droobie
said by droobie:

The 'access provider' is supposed to be giving me pure unadulterated access to the Internet of some defined amount for a certain price. They're effectively 'blocking' access to the Internet in some form.

Depends, if their TOS says you can't run a server, you can't run a server. People who run servers typically use a LOT more bandwidth that the "average" consumer, and they have the plans based on what the average consumer uses. Now if somehow enforceable laws do get written that state an ISP can't block servers, that will cause ISP's to either raise their rates to offset the additional usage, or implement metered billing so those who use more pay more.

said by droobie:

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of spam that goes around on Port 25. At the same time, I'm sure there's plenty of questionable materials going around on Port 80.

Yes, but the difference is that many ISP's do run mail servers, and when spam comes from IP's allocated to them, it is basically the same as being on the fast lane to getting on the blacklist for all other mail servers, so it does cause real harm to communications. The whole email system is well overdue for a full revamp to tackle this type of problem, but there's just no good way to do it and keep backwards compatibility.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to droobie
said by droobie:

Many things could be claimed in network management, like ISPs that block access to DNS servers outside of their network. Doesn't make it right or 'neutral' however. There's plenty of perfectly valid mail going over port 25 and not all DNS traffic is a DDOS attempt.

See my above post regarding SMTP blocking.

For DNS blocking, there are very valid reasons for doing that too. The main reason being that it blocks rogue dns servers harming their customers.

As you point out, there are legit purposes, but it is a balancing act between protecting customers from harmful stuff, and leaving things open.

Enabling or disabling blocks at the account level would be nice for those who do want to use a 3rd party DNS service, but it does add an additional cost to implement.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to droobie
said by droobie:

said by thedragonmas:

actually id tell you to get a business class account for your business.

As an 'access' provider, the electric company does not query the brand, model, or use of my clothes dryer.

No, but if you want to run a laundromat and you need the appropriate juice to power that many driers, you will be forced to get a commercial electric account.

Running a mail server should also require a business class account, as you are doing something that is more advanced than the average consumer needs, and therefore also should understand how to prevent the abuse of port 25 in the first place.