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inGearX
3.1415 9265

join:2000-06-11
New York

Where do we get electric power from?

In NYC / Brooklyn - in % what where is our power supplied from?

Also do we buy / sell to/from other sources?

in essence - if I leave the lights on is coal being used someplace?


NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3

1 recommendation

said by inGearX:

In NYC / Brooklyn - in % what where is our power supplied from?

Also do we buy / sell to/from other sources?

in essence - if I leave the lights on is coal being used someplace?

»tinyurl.com/4c22r2v


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
NYC has some of the greenest electricity. Most of it comes from Indian Point and Niagara. Peak electricity is made by clean natural gas generators.

Those big plants in LIC, 14th Street, and east side? I have no idea.
--
Standard disclaimers apply.
Atomic batteries to power. Turbines to speed.


PCInTech
keeping art alive since 1953
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Massena, NY
kudos:9
reply to inGearX
We're doing our best up here on the St. Lawrence River to assist you, as well.


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to AVD
said by AVD:

NYC has some of the greenest electricity. Most of it comes from Indian Point and Niagara. Peak electricity is made by clean natural gas generators.

Those big plants in LIC, 14th Street, and east side? I have no idea.

Not sure if they are oil or gas. They certainly are not coal-fired. I do know that Con Ed only uses them to supplement the power during periods of high demand.


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to inGearX
said by inGearX:

in essence - if I leave the lights on is coal being used someplace?

Yes. And coal is being used, if you leave the lights off. Your power does not come from any particular place. Power plants provide power into the grid. The amount of power is a percentage coal, percentage nuclear, percentage hydro...gas...oil...and even wind & solar. Just leaving your lights on are not going to throw those percentages out of whack. I believe when demand goes up, more oil and gas is used (making their percentages of the total higher). So basically, your lightbulbs use the same percentages of differing power sources. Their light is provided by all fuel types.

Con Ed will buy the power that their customers demand, according to pre-arranged contracts and on the energy spot-market (where prices & suppliers change from hour to hour). Unfortunately, often it costs more to buy 'green' power; primarily because more and more, there is a higher demand for it.

Of course, if your goal is to tell someone to turn off the lights because we are burning coal and polluting the environment; you would be exactly correct.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to inGearX
where does Con-ED make the steam for their steam distribution system?


Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

4 edits
reply to inGearX
a common misconception;
said by AVD:

Most of it comes from Indian Point and Niagara.

electricity is a commodity which is traded between municipal grids depending on it's cost of production and delivery. Atomic being the most expensive to produce, and Niagara being the least efficient to deliver due to it's distance. NYC consumes far more Coal & Gas generated power from it's own plants and power purchased from neighboring States than you seem to realize. despite Niagara being on NY State's boarders, most of that hydroelectric power ends up elsewhere. ironically, Niagara produces more energy at night for manufacturing than during the daytime, so as not to spoil the Waterfalls for tourism. so daytimes in NYC during our peak demand, only a fraction of our power comes from hydro.

97779361

join:2011-01-07
reply to inGearX
For those that didn't already know, this was all explained during and after the Great Blackout of 2003.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_···_of_2003


NYR 56
Premium
join:2000-12-05
Smithtown, NY
reply to Packeteers
said by Packeteers:

Atomic being the most expensive to produce, and Niagara being the least efficient to deliver due to it's distance.

What? Nuclear is no where close to the most expensive. Is that really what you meant to type?


Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

4 edits
yes, Nuclear is cheap in France because their regulatory and waste
management infrastructure has been groomed to support Nuclear.

since Three Mile Island accident, Nuclear has become the most
expensive (per Kilowatt yield) to approve, build, operate, and
waste manage of all possible power alternatives here in America.

Just look at the mess we made of Yucca Mountain.
If you wonder why China is kicking our asses, it's
because they create a public works project, and
get it done. all we do in the USA is pay Lawyers.


The only reactor under construction in America,
is at Watts Bar, Tennessee, was begun in 1973
and may be completed in 2012 - that's 40 years!
It takes the French under 5 years to get a plant
planned, built and running.


NYR 56
Premium
join:2000-12-05
Smithtown, NY
When speaking about "cost to produce", the costs to build are not generally included. Regardless, I think the total cost is more important anyway.

The fact that the US has an unfounded fear of nuclear power and has a bunch of useless politicians/lawyers that block or slow the development of the energy source, should really not be included in the costs, however. I can build a coal power plant that costs more than any nuclear power plant, but that doesn't mean coal is all of a sudden the most expensive. As you point out, the fact that France and other countries are able to build them efficiency proves that these high costs have nothing to do with the fuel source itself and everything to do with our bureaucratic government.


TrainBuff
The New Haven Railroad
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Buffalo, NY
kudos:4
reply to 97779361
said by 97779361:

For those that didn't already know, this was all explained during and after the Great Blackout of 2003.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_···_of_2003

Interesting article. Reading about Buffalo, there is no such thing as University Power. UB buys their power from National Grid. Parts of the area only saw a brownout.
Due to deregulation, your power could come from anywhere. NYISO who operates the New York state Power grid purchases the power on the open market.
--
Train Yourself To Relax...Ride The New Haven Railroad! Weather or No...Go New Haven!
The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Co.:1872-1968. Serving New York and the Great Industrial States of Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.


dummy168

join:2004-01-26
Flushing, NY
reply to AVD
The steam is a byproduct of the electric generator. Instead to put it into waste, Con-Ed distribute through out midtown area for heating various building.


TrainBuff
The New Haven Railroad
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Buffalo, NY
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to AVD
said by AVD:

where does Con-ED make the steam for their steam distribution system?

They have steam generating plants in different parts of the city.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_C···m_system
--
Train Yourself To Relax...Ride The New Haven Railroad! Weather or No...Go New Haven!
The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Co.:1872-1968. Serving New York and the Great Industrial States of Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.


squirrel83
cheers

join:2005-05-02
Honolulu, HI
reply to inGearX
I live in Astoria, NY and I just moved here in October but I study info-structure and design. There is power plant near by here is the Wiki Article = »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Allis

quote:
At the time of its installation, it was the world's largest energy generating facility. It is located on the Ravenswood site, consisting of Units 1, 2, 3 and 4, as well as several small Gas Turbines (GTs), and an oil depot. The site overall produces about 2,500 MW, or approximately 20% of New York City's current energy needs.[1] The current installed capacity of Big Allis is around 980 MW.[2]
As stated above this plant powers 20% of New York City's Current Energy Needs. Other than that I think its nuclear.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
what's info-structure?


squirrel83
cheers

join:2005-05-02
Honolulu, HI
its the latest . .


CLNYC
End Selective Persecution

join:2006-01-16
New York, NY
reply to NYR 56
said by NYR 56:

When speaking about "cost to produce", the costs to build are not generally included. Regardless, I think the total cost is more important anyway.

The fact that the US has an unfounded fear of nuclear power and has a bunch of useless politicians/lawyers that block or slow the development of the energy source, should really not be included in the costs, however. I can build a coal power plant that costs more than any nuclear power plant, but that doesn't mean coal is all of a sudden the most expensive. As you point out, the fact that France and other countries are able to build them efficiency proves that these high costs have nothing to do with the fuel source itself and everything to do with our bureaucratic government.

How can you not factor the cost of the plant? The rates are determined by total cost to deliver a product the same way with anything we buy. If you invest money in anything you do it for ROI. Do you think Con Edison does not factor the cost of building and maintaining plants when pricing energy. They clearly do and the PSC allows it as they should. If you spend far more to build a coal plant than a nuclear plant as you hypothesize coal could cost more. If you buy a $250K Aston Martin automobile or a 20K Chevy the large difference in price is the cost of manufacturing. I would be driving an Aston Martin if the manufacturing costs did not determine the price.

France is able to build nuclear plants quickly and less costly since they all are designed the same way. They do not reinvent the wheel. They also have no other choice. The US has a large supply of oil, gas and coal and we choose not to tap all of it. If we drilled in Alaska, off the Atlantic Coast or other places we would have far less need to import oil. I don't necessarily agree with tapping some of our resources but we do have that choice.

Indian Point was one of the worst examples of Civil Engineering in history. If an accident happened how would you evacuate NYC which would be in the danger zone if an accident occurred? We have a tough time getting people in and out of NYC on the best of days. I am for nuclear power but having a nuclear plant located close to the largest city is the US was not well thought out.
--
POWER CONCENTRATED IN THE HANDS OF A FEW IS TOXIC TO ALL OF US

I'D RATHER BE A FREE MAN IN MY GRAVE THAN LIVING AS A PUPPET OR A SLAVE


NYR 56
Premium
join:2000-12-05
Smithtown, NY
Reread what I wrote. I agree with you that the total cost is more important when discussing a particular plant, but when you are comparing types of electricity, the "cost to produce" does not typically include the one-time building costs. Your example of cars would include the cost of building the manufacturing plant, not just the cost of manufacturing the individual cars. Also, just because we like build nuclear plants with the latest technology and design each one individually, does not mean that nuclear power in general has to cost that much, which was the point of bringing France into this.

As for Indian Point, I don't think it's such a terrible thing. Although I would much rather the plant be built further away, and agree that would make much more sense, I still think there is far more concern about nuclear power than there should be. Nuclear power plants are not just ticking time bombs and are far safer than the public wants to believe.


PCInTech
keeping art alive since 1953
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Massena, NY
kudos:9
reply to inGearX
In reality, your power comes from a myriad of sources. It depends on who's selling power to the "grid". The NYPA (New York Power Authority) controls most of what you folks there in the City and environs, get.


CLNYC
End Selective Persecution

join:2006-01-16
New York, NY
reply to NYR 56
said by NYR 56:

Reread what I wrote. I agree with you that the total cost is more important when discussing a particular plant, but when you are comparing types of electricity, the "cost to produce" does not typically include the one-time building costs. Your example of cars would include the cost of building the manufacturing plant, not just the cost of manufacturing the individual cars. Also, just because we like build nuclear plants with the latest technology and design each one individually, does not mean that nuclear power in general has to cost that much, which was the point of bringing France into this.

As for Indian Point, I don't think it's such a terrible thing. Although I would much rather the plant be built further away, and agree that would make much more sense, I still think there is far more concern about nuclear power than there should be. Nuclear power plants are not just ticking time bombs and are far safer than the public wants to believe.

I have to disagree. The the cost of the nuclear plant is part of the P&L for the company that supplies power and must be recovered. Somebody must pay for the plant cost. It is a one time expense that still must be recovered. It is spread out over the years and is part of the cost power that the plant factors it in. The same as a car. They both need a initial investment of a plant and both produce a product. This is the same for wigets, car and power.

The World Trade Center was designed to take a hit from a plane but in the end we know the story. Can you be certain Indian Point could survive a similar strike against it.
--
POWER CONCENTRATED IN THE HANDS OF A FEW IS TOXIC TO ALL OF US

I'D RATHER BE A FREE MAN IN MY GRAVE THAN LIVING AS A PUPPET OR A SLAVE


bobbagels
Just Another Scorpion Mechwarrior
Premium
join:2000-11-15
Matawan, NJ
kudos:2

2 recommendations

reply to PCInTech
"We're doing our best up here on the St. Lawrence River to assist you, as well"

Wow,
I was in jail up there once
Nice town


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to CLNYC
The WTC was designed to withstand a hit from a 1970's jetliner that was lost and looking for a NYC Airport (flying slow and with empty tanks), not a modern aircraft filled to the gills with fuel. The towers didn't collapse from impact, heat fron burning fuel compromised the integrity of the structural steel. The impact from plane did contribute to the failure of the fire suppression system and the fireproofing of the steel in one tower, but it was the heat from the uncontrolled fire that did them in.
--
Standard disclaimers apply.
Atomic batteries to power. Turbines to speed.
Expand your moderator at work