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sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1

Model For Calif - Sweden's School Choice Voucher System

Even cradle to grave socialist Sweden has given up on government run school monopolies. Parents can choose a government or private school and full funding will follow the student. If a school accepts vouchers then they are not allowed to charge parents any additional fees and the students must pass standardized tests to keep the school eligible. As more students have moved to private schools their government schools competitors have improved in order to survive. Unlike here they can't just coast - they have to improve or die.

»dailycaller.com/2011/01/23/swede ··· america/
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1
California ranks 32nd in the nation with $9,015 spent on each child in public K-12 schools.

Although vouchers seem like a good idea on paper, it's impossible to put into practice in our Country on any meaningful scale. Why?

Even if it were illegal for a school to charge parents any additional fees if they accept vouchers, no private school I have ever heard of would ever accept this. Lets take a look at Pasadena Polytechnic.
A very high performing K-12 private school. But look at what it cost to go there:
Tuition rates vary by division. For the 2008-2009 school year, tuition rates are as follows: Grades K-5: $18,675 Grades 6-8: $21,950 Grades 9-12: $25,225
source: »www.privateschoolreview.com/scho ··· _id/3470

Sorry, private schools are businesses first. If one child with a $9,000 "voucher" came into the admissions office they would probably be laughed out of the building. Why would a private High school that charges $25,000/year take $9,000?? Every private school I have looked at charges at least twice that.

$9K/student also isn't enough for entrepreneurs to get involved as it would require a certain economy of scale .. perhaps 2,000+ students .. which in turn would require millions of $$$ in upfront capital. Charter schools struggle under this model, most of them go out of business in short order.

Nope. Vouchers are DOA. BTW, school performance is a smokescreen for greedy unionistas and politicos. There is nothing wrong with the quality of education at public schools.



sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1

2 edits
So you're saying that no legitimate business would get into education when there is a potential to take in $200,000 in revenue for a class room with 20 students or nearly $300,000 per classroom of 30? With all due respect my friend - YOU'RE INSANE! Businesses would be all over it. No niche market ever goes unfilled - ever. The switch wouldn't happen overnight and would never be 100% but as new private voucher schools open government schools and their unions will go into survival mode and start putting out a better product and a higher quality balance will be reached.

BTW you may have missed this but private for profit colleges have been growing. And don't give me the Obama report nonsense that was a combination of payback to unionized colleges and a reverse pump & dump (shorting private college stock) by one of the people involved in the report. Those schools put out college level courses in business, management, and technical fields that are very good and for not much more. They don't need to buy a 60 acre site and build they can do the same thing that colleges do - rent office space until the are ready to rent an entire office building, then two, then three, then four. Then they can use the space for college courses in the evening. It's a profit monster.

Do you have a philosophical problem with allowing parents a choice?

--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1

1 edit
Then we agree that any voucher plan will not be economically attractive to existing private schools, and therefore vouchers will only be a potential seed for new school opportunities. I'll try to stop the insanity by rephrasing my position.

The Charter school concept is basically vouchers lite, no middle man. California has had Charter schools since 1992. Parents can choose any Charter school within a district and send their children there, no extra cost as Charter schools are funded with the same tax dollars as public schools.

Conservatives such as yourself like charter schools because they are founded on a model of accountability, tend to be exempt from collective bargaining laws, represent a model of privatizing a traditional government function, and offer competition and choice to the public system.

Unfortunately, the 20-year charter school experiment has been a failure. Federally administered tests demonstrate that between 2003 and 2009 charter schools have never outperformed public schools and Black and Latino students in charter schools do not out perform their public school counterparts.

It gets worse. Most of these Charter Schools are operated on a shoe-string budget as you described. Part-time facilities, ad-hoc curriculums, etc. $9K a student really doesn't go far in the real world. What you fail to understand is a basic business principle; customers don't beat a path to your door just because you've hung a shingle outside. A business needs to develop a track record of quality first, which means massive up-front capital. After 20 years, don't you think some business minded investors would have "seen the light" by now? There is no business here at that base revenue per student. This is why private schools are sooooo much more expensive.

And even if you have tons of up front money, it still won't work. Up in the Bay Area, there's a Charter school called Stanford New School. The founders are pedigreed educators and the Standford school of education. Massive upfront capital came from Major Corporations like HP, Cisco, and Apple as well as individual silicon valley millionaires.

Guess what? In March of last year California placed the Stanford New School on a list of consistently underachieving charter schools. On April 14, 2010 the school’s board voted not to renew the school’s contract.

You should read Conservative Diane Ravitch's take on Charter schools:
»articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/14 ··· 010mar14
See worked in the Bush Department of education.

Public schools are top heavy (cost wise) and over-administrated, but in terms of eduction, there is nothing wrong with them.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
said by dogma:

Public schools are top heavy (cost wise) and over-administrated, but in terms of eduction, there is nothing wrong with them.

And yet we have high dropout rates and American kids consistently score as ignorant compared to other countries. I think you're setting the bar a bit low.

»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ··· 178.html

Second existing schools will open branches. They have no reason to turn away that kind of money. Frankly the only way to save government controlled K-12 education is to outlaw government unions and bring in business people to administer the schools based on sound business principles and bonuses for results. If that can't be done then it's like slapping a band-aid on a stage 4 cancer patient and declaring him cured.

Again - what do you have against letting parents choose the best education for their kids? Are you anti-choice. Or do you just think that every parent is stupid? Or is a religious (praise be to government schools) issue?

--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
reply to dogma
And let's not forget what we are sentencing kids to.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKGNmvhq ··· Nmvhqxzs

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzIfTmD8 ··· fTmD8UUc

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khlm4fa- ··· m4fa-_cE

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0k5TF7P ··· 5TF7PJbo

--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1
reply to sholling
Not that I am some union fanboui, and you can outlaw unions, but that won't help a child learn.

From your link:
...several of the Pacific Rim nations that excelled in the testing have strong academic standards and a culture of high expectations, with particular emphasis on math and science.
The drop out rate and the overall mediocre performance is not a by-product of our school system. You can lead a horse to a river of money, but you can't make it drink. IOW, the best educator can not force education down the throat of a student who is disinterested.

These movies/TeeeVeee shows/and assorted and sundry political pundits don't have the kids best interest at heart either. They want to treat a symptom, vs. curing the disease. What if your stage 4 cancer patient has been misdiagnosed? The Chemo and radiation therapy will kill him. But Chemo is much more lucrative than the band aid he really needs. But as long as people buy into WMD-style fear mongering (such as the video clips you presented), and can be lead by the nose, we will never address the root problem.

We do this dance with everything;
We don't have a deficit spending problem, we have a borrowing problem.

We don't have an immigration problem, we have a security problem.

We don't have a education system problem, we have a cultural problem.


toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Portland, OR
reply to sholling
Voucher systems are unfair to all.

and....

If someone chooses not to have children ever, do we get vouchers to use towards towards other things, such as our mortgage?


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
reply to dogma
said by dogma:

We don't have a deficit spending problem, we have a borrowing problem.

We don't have an immigration problem, we have a security problem.

We don't have a education system problem, we have a cultural problem.

2.5 out of 3, not bad. We have a cultural problem in some areas and we have crappy schools. We can fix the schools relatively easily by ending unions and providing incentives for good teachers and competition for the government school so that they have a reason to improve.

But as long as we have a culture of dependency on government handouts 3rd generation welfare families aren't going to value education or have the skills to help their kids. As long as trusted poverty pimps keep telling them don't bother because the man won't let them get ahead poor people aren't going to put the effort in. We can't change that overnight and probably not for decades. Not as long as one political party's power comes from keeping the poor dependent on them. Neither they or the poverty pimps can afford to allowed the poor to have real opportunities to work their way up.

And as long as so many kids are from single parent families and or two income families kids won't get the time and help that they need at home. We can fix these problems overnight either. So do we let another 2-3 generations fail out of stubborn refusal to fix the schools?
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

1 recommendation

You are truly an amazing man. It's rare to find someone with so many answers on how to raise and educate children ... all without the benefit of having done either himself.

My hat's off.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
said by No_Strings:

You are truly an amazing man. It's rare to find someone with so many answers on how to raise and educate children ... all without the benefit of having done either himself.

As the child of an divorced alcoholic mother going to elementary and Jr high in some lovely Santa Ana neighborhoods I have a little bit experience with having to make it in crap schools with no help at home. How was your experience? Fairly waspy?

BTW I did have a kid around the house for a few years. I'm not the biological father but I thought highly enough of her and took that parental responsibility seriously enough to send her to Montessori on my dime. Your kids have the advantage of a very smart stay at home mom and an educated and engaged father living at home, and parents successful enough that you could shop a city for them to go to school in and buy them new cars so that they don't have to deal with anything more stressful than a pimple. This may come as a shock but that's not the norm, not close to it outside of south county.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the problems are any more than it takes a rocket scientist to make snide comments because somebody cares enough to get involved.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


ohdan

join:2008-11-10
Adelanto, CA
Tissue?

Seriously, there is not much in the world more annoying to a parent than a non-parent telling you what's best for your own -and everyone else's- kids. It's not that the opinion isn't valid, though.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
said by ohdan:

Tissue?

Seriously, there is not much in the world more annoying to a parent than a non-parent telling you what's best for your own -and everyone else's- kids.

Then don't send me the bill for the little darlings' education. If someone wants to reach for my wallet I get a voice. Besides I consider the current system child abuse.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
reply to sholling
Aside from several incorrect assumptions, exactly how is it that you're getting involved?


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
said by No_Strings:

Aside from several incorrect assumptions, exactly how is it that you're getting involved?

Please oh wise one, enlighten me. What did I get wrong?
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


RR Conductor
NWP RR Inc.,serving NW CA
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1
reply to sholling
VooDoo Economics is going to save us all too, yep, let those with money run the world, wait, they already do, and man, the world is just perfect and peachy keen!

Oh, and calling people insane in a debate really isn't kosher.


bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
Premium
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings:

You are truly an amazing man. It's rare to find someone with so many answers on how to raise and educate children ... all without the benefit of having done either himself.

My hat's off.

Beautiful response.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1

1 edit
said by bobrk:

Beautiful response.

Actually it's a "shut up and pay for my kids' education" response, and a "who gives a crap about poor minority kids stuck in bad schools" response.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--

hoyleysox
Premium
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
reply to sholling
The voucher system would be abused. If Obama implemented the voucher system, schools will be setup all over with minumum standards to get at that Obama money. If the voucher was $9k, schools would rebate 10% of it back for their parents business.

Here is a real life example: A training company offered a course teaching MS Office and the training company provided a laptop to each student. Everyone in my department signed up for the course, but I doubt anybody who signed up intended to learn MS Office.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
said by hoyleysox:

The voucher system would be abused. If Obama implemented the voucher system, schools will be setup all over with minumum standards to get at that Obama money. If the voucher was $9k, schools would rebate 10% of it back for their parents business.

It's simply a matter of setting standards and baring kickbacks and unlike unionized public schools and government bureaucracy those standards and practices rules will be enforced. Besides it's not like there isn't abuse of the current system. The government schools are getting almost $10,000 per student in California and $25,000 per student in DC and can't educate kids... you think that money isn't being pissed away? What we have now is the poster child for abuse. I just don't see any reason (other then protecting the gravy train) why anyone would want to lock kids into a failed system.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
reply to sholling
said by sholling:

going to elementary and Jr high in some lovely Santa Ana neighborhoods

I finished high school in a lovely Santa Ana neighborhood at Bristol/Edinger...
--
.:|:. aztec being aztec...™


DanHo
Premium
join:2002-05-20
Seattle, WA
Poor, poor boy. Were the nuns mean to you? Or the priests really friendly with you?
--
..-. ..- -.-. -.- / --- ..-. ..-. / .- -. -.. / -.. .. .


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
said by DanHo:

Poor, poor boy. Were the nuns mean to you? Or the priests really friendly with you?

No nuns. Only 1 priest for a teacher. Then there was Father Steve who did all the school prayers and pregame prayers...
--
.:|:. aztec being aztec...™


DanHo
Premium
join:2002-05-20
Seattle, WA
When did you graduate? I went to Fountain Valley (Class of '90).
--
..-. ..- -.-. -.- / --- ..-. ..-. / .- -. -.. / -.. .. .


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
'96...


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to sholling
then why, exactly, are you a proponent for a voucher system?

all the systems have failed here and there. it's pretty clear that the public system has succeeded, and continues to do so, in many places, just not where the schools and parents are so overloaded that things slip. i'm not sure it's even a cultural thing more than it is too high a concentration of bad circumstances in some areas.

poor areas have less parental time. that means you double up on the teacher's time or you lose kids, period. too bad that the schools are located in poverty areas (where the poor kids are), where the tax revenue is too low to even support a minimum number of teachers. per-child vouchers don't fix that problem, and probably just make it worse.

aside to dog - LAUSD was about 11k/student maybe 2 years ago. is your number very current? also, any idea what the grace period is for a new charter school to meet state minimum requirements? one or two years, or is it immediate?

as far as reaching into pockets for education.... do you want to pay for the school, or so you want to pay for the prison, police, and theft insurance? you live here, so you're pretty much stuck with one or the other. plus, if you think it's bad that you have to pay when you don't have any children, think how bad i feel that i HAVE children, have to pay through the nose to give them their own reasonable education, and STILL have to pay a little extra so that the people they go to school with are educated enough not to bring pistols to school in their backpacks, at least not every day, whether their parents have the time to teach self control or not.

you have it way easy. your skin in the game is easily retracted.
--
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1
said by OC Register--> »articles.ocregister.com/2010-06- ··· on-pupil :

California ranks 23rd in per-pupil spending
June 29, 2010|By SCOTT MARTINDALE

California ranks 23rd among U.S. states in per-pupil spending on public education, below the national average of $10,259, according to newly released financial data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

The average $9,863 that California spent per student is based on data from the 2007-08 school year – the latest year for which financial figures are available – and thus does not reflect the dramatic cuts in state spending over the past two years that have decimated local school districts' budgets.

Take a look at this .pdf:
»cbp.org/documents/CaliforniaBudg ··· Less.pdf

It is important to note that California School spending is directly tied (a % of) to State tax revenue.