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fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to r81984

Re: More Proof that All Data Plans with Overages Are Bad

Bandwidth is always oversold. If it wasn't, we'd each pay much more than we are paying now.

And simply leaving your device streaming constantly just because you can is pretty much the definition of abuse.


r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·row44
said by fifty nine:

If it wasn't, we'd each pay much more than we are paying now.

That is not true at all.
How much do you think the equipment and lines costs?? Especially on a wireless where they have no last mile physical lines.

Do you really think wireless bandwidth cost more than your cable company or phone company that had to bury lines to every house??

Leaving your phone streaming is not abuse. You can't judge one persons usage to anothers. Also if you stream 24/7 the network would just be as congested if you only did it during peak usage times in the evening.
24/7 usage does not matter. The network must be built for peak usage.
Caps do not prevent people from using their connections at the same time.
--
Your behavior is inconsistent with your desire to be treated like everyone else.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
said by r81984:

Leaving your phone streaming is not abuse.

It absolutely is. No one is listening and you are using data. For what?

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to r81984
said by r81984:

Do you really think wireless bandwidth cost more than your cable company or phone company that had to bury lines to every house??

It's not just a matter of cost you know. The bandwidth on that tower is shared by every other user on that tower. EV-DO provides a maximum of 3mbit/s per channel. That bandwidth is shared by every single data user on that tower and channel. Do the math on that, it's not a lot of bandwidth. In reality it's probably less than 3mbit/s because that data rate is only achieved under very good RF conditions which may not exist for most users.

Cable operates under the same sort of shared bandwidth arrangement but they are starting with a higher number (around 40mbit/s for earlier flavors of DOCSIS) and can split overloaded nodes easier than a cellular company can deploy new cell sites/purchase more spectrum.

said by r81984:

Leaving your phone streaming is not abuse.

It is if you aren't actually using it. What's the point? You are consuming a finite resource for no purpose. Do you also leave your faucets wide open just to spite the water company?


Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

said by r81984:

Leaving your phone streaming is not abuse.

It absolutely is. No one is listening and you are using data. For what?

I pay for the data.. I should be able to use it without restrictions instead of that at&t "tells" me what I can and can't do with it.

BTW: Voice is data, too.. If you want to get technical.
--
Bresnan 18M/1M
MyWS[E5200@3.75GHz,4GB RAM,2x1TB HDDs,Win7]
WifeWS[A64@2GHz,2GB RAM,120GB HDD,Win7]
Router[2xP3@1GHz,512MB RAM,18GB HDD,SMC 8432BTA,2xDigital DE504,Compaq NC3131,Intel Pro/1000MT,IBM Gigabit Ethernet-SX,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,Gentoo Linux]


Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks:

It's not just a matter of cost you know. The bandwidth on that tower is shared by every other user on that tower. EV-DO provides a maximum of 3mbit/s per channel. That bandwidth is shared by every single data user on that tower and channel. Do the math on that, it's not a lot of bandwidth. In reality it's probably less than 3mbit/s because that data rate is only achieved under very good RF conditions which may not exist for most users.

times how many channels? Also, what kind of backhaul are they using? I'm sure 3mbps * 300 1.25MHz channels (375MHz of Spectrum) = 900mbps.. Plus a GbE fiber backhaul and you could easily handle a decent number of users.
said by Crookshanks:

Do you also leave your faucets wide open just to spite the water company?

Depending on where you live. Some places if you don't leave it trickle at night, you could end up with blown pipes due to them freezing.
--
Bresnan 18M/1M
MyWS[E5200@3.75GHz,4GB RAM,2x1TB HDDs,Win7]
WifeWS[A64@2GHz,2GB RAM,120GB HDD,Win7]
Router[2xP3@1GHz,512MB RAM,18GB HDD,SMC 8432BTA,2xDigital DE504,Compaq NC3131,Intel Pro/1000MT,IBM Gigabit Ethernet-SX,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,Gentoo Linux]


r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·row44
reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

Bandwidth is always oversold. If it wasn't, we'd each pay much more than we are paying now.

And simply leaving your device streaming constantly just because you can is pretty much the definition of abuse.

I just don't understand what happened to this site.
Pre 2005 there were many knowledgeable people and people were not brainwashed shills for these ISPs.
Either people are getting more ignorant when it comes to the internet or they are just really gullible to ISP lying advertising and press releases.

I just can't understand why everyone has forgotten the last 15 years of unlimited internet and now they seem to think that magically caps somehow fix everything and that people who use their connection more than others are some kind of abusers. Really WTF???

The recent changes to caps and overages is purely a profit endeavor for ISPs it has nothing to do with covering their expenses or reducing congestion. Unlimited internet is highly profitable for ISPs, capped internet is insanely profitable for ISPs and just hurts the consumer that is stuck in this monopoly market.

It worries me how uneducated the public is and how far people will go to defend the very companies that are trying to rip them off. In college I never really believed at how gullible people were to advertising over the truth from marketing classes, but damn it is clear on this very site that people will easily ignore the truth over simple tv advertising.
--
Your behavior is inconsistent with your desire to be treated like everyone else.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

2 recommendations

reply to Simba7
said by Simba7:

I'm sure 3mbps * 300 1.25MHz channels (375MHz of Spectrum) = 900mbps.. Plus a GbE fiber backhaul and you could easily handle a decent number of users.

Which cellular company are you doing business with that has 375MHZ of spectrum in a market and the ability to devote ALL of that to data services?

said by Simba7:

Depending on where you live. Some places if you don't leave it trickle at night, you could end up with blown pipes due to them freezing.

Umm yeah, I live in Upstate New York. If your pipes freeze you have an insulation problem. My pipes are just fine down to -15 without leaving the tap on.

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to Simba7
"I pay for data".. Well, if you want data with out restrictions, there's a long tradition of that kinda of service for that kind of use, and it's been billed by the byte LONG before people really even knew what the internet was.

And why do you feel that the owner of the network and the company that is renting you access to that network shouldn't be able to dictate how the product is used? Where do you get this notion that you should have free reign to use it as you chose? If you want wholesale access, there are options for you. If you want residential access, and you want it for a reasonable rate, then you're going to be told what they're willing to accept as far as use goes.

There ARE, however, some fine lines that I believe should not be so fine. I believe in the spirit of the so-called network neutrality. I feel that they should be able to freely sell and price plan the internet so long as laws are not broken and I don't believe the government should be in the way of that. I DO believe that certain rules should apply to a carrier that chooses to price their internet in a certain way, control it in a certain way, etc. These rules should shape the way they conduct and sell that service based on how the path they chose to take.

Some people, however, are confused, and believe that they somehow have a right to the internet, at a cheap rate (what ever that may be) and have complete open access to do "anything I damn well please" with it, oh, and it should, no - HAS to work error free, and needs to be fiber to the home and I want mobile internet so I can do everything there as well, including stream HD TV to my home entertainment system" too..

"BTW: Voice is data, too.. If you want to get technical." No, nobody cares about that because you're saying that in this discussion is an attempt to try to make a point for no reason which offers nothing to the main topic.


Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA
reply to r81984
Because people love to blame someone for their troubles.

Abusers are being blamed for ending unlimited and now people want to identify who the "abusers" are so they can mock and slam them online.

We see it on here daily. Someone watches 1-2 movies on their iPad or iPhone and are slammed by others claiming that this person has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to bash the phone companies because those movie streams are SO MUCH DATA! YOU ARE AT FAULT! YOU ARE THE REASON!


Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
said by Bill Neilson:

We see it on here daily. Someone watches 1-2 movies on their iPad or iPhone and are slammed by others claiming that this person has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to bash the phone companies because those movie streams are SO MUCH DATA! YOU ARE AT FAULT! YOU ARE THE REASON!

So, I'm just as bad as someone who's entire network is running off an iPhone and using data 24/7? Bullsh*t.

BTW: With the proper codecs, movies don't use that much bandwidth.
--
Bresnan 18M/1M
MyWS[E5200@3.75GHz,4GB RAM,2x1TB HDDs,Win7]
WifeWS[A64@2GHz,2GB RAM,120GB HDD,Win7]
Router[2xP3@1GHz,512MB RAM,18GB HDD,SMC 8432BTA,2xDigital DE504,Compaq NC3131,Intel Pro/1000MT,IBM Gigabit Ethernet-SX,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,Gentoo Linux]


Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA
said by Simba7:

So, I'm just as bad as someone who's entire network is running off an iPhone and using data 24/7? Bullsh*t.

No, you are not bad whatsoever which is my point.

I use my phone for news apps, email, maybe a little music, etc....and blow past the 2gb every month.

I laugh at someone calling me a "heavy user" which some here have said anyone over several GB's is if they do so on their phone.

I am not sure what exactly an "abuser" is but some here mention that they simply teethering or download/upload 24/7 using MASSIVE gb's....and I guess that is what an "abuser" is....

So how AT&T and others figured that imposing a low 2gbs to stop those abusers is an utter joke. Criminal, imo


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
reply to r81984
You go ahead and insist oversubscription shouldn't be done. You go have fun on some ISP which doesn't, but then charges you 10x or more compared to current carriers. Y'know...if you could credibly prove you actually have some sort of technical direct involvement or possibly some other tie, I might give credance to what you're pontificating. But even since dialup days, oversubscription has been done.

Furthermore, again, unless you want to do away with oversubscription, "planning for the peak" is an estimate at best. With people wandering all over the place, peak cannot be determined unless you want to determine some maximum density of users per area covered by a tower--and that figure will be astronomical (hey, I only need about a quarter square meter, maybe less, if I'm standing). You sound like you want an ideal world where there are no limits, and that's exactly what it would take: both tower and backhaul capacity to cover all users at some rate (3Mbps?) if they were packed standing within the tower's coverage area.

Your statement of "don't judge others' usage compared to mine" (paraphrasing) proves you just want some utopian world. I think it would be an interesting exercise if you could get a quote from your wireless carrier of choice for a CIR. Then that obviates any need for judging; you will have whatever CIR for which you have contracted, and you can go ahead and frob it 24/7/366 if you want. Chances are very good your monthly dollars rate will be enormous because to meet their contract, they'll have to have that capacity JUST for you, plus any additional for the rest of the customers which don't have your need for speed.

Me, I don't have such an appetite for data, nor such a budget. I'll make-do with my oversubscribed residential Roadrunner connection for the bulk of my Internet access and use my Boost phone sparingly for data.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.


Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!