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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to robman50

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Re: Expensive Cable to Free OTA?

said by robman50:

67-3 is Daystar, 26-1, 26-2 and 26-3 is TCT.
I know because I do a lot of browsing. lol
But 67-1 WNGSHD and 67-2 WNGSSD, i think its called THIS. It's like the older shows.

Hah I see that now. I haven't had an antenna up since this past summer
Marbles_00
join:2005-02-14
Hacketts Cove, NS

Marbles_00 to robman50

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Yep, ThisTV. Broadcasts older movies/tv/children's programming. Anything OTA is good OTA
robman50
join:2010-12-14

robman50

Member

I coudn't find any stores around here that sells the other types of antenna's.
So here is what I'm aiming at, CM4228HD (8 bay), ,CM9521A (rotor), CM7777 (preamp), 100 feet of RG-6 (could cut off the extra to make it more short), CM3412 (distro amp), and 20 feet of RG-6 to the tv.
Is this a good setup?
Marbles_00
join:2005-02-14
Hacketts Cove, NS

Marbles_00

Member

In the start, leave off the 3412. The 7777 should be able to compensate for the 100' of cable. The additional 20' should not degrade the signal adequately. Actually, if you can, just run the 100' direct to the TV, and place the 7777 power inserter there, then use a short length of RG6 to the TV itself. That distribution amp has 8dB worth of gain, and could overload your tuner, when used with the 7777. I use one in my setup to output to multiple TV's, and on one of the outputs, I added a splitter, just to down the gain as I noticed one of the tuners after a 6' cable run was loosing channels (sign of overload).
Marbles_00

Marbles_00 to robman50

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to robman50
You can also do some crude calculations to determine if you will get certain channels.

The basic formula is:
Total Signal = NM + (System Gain) - (System Loss)
Where NM = Noise Margin of channel provide by TVFool
System Gain = (Antenna Gain) + (Amplifier Gain)
System Loss = (Balun Loss) + (Splitter Loss) + (Line Loss) + (NF of Amplifier) + (NF of TV)

Some typical values for the above are:
Balun Loss = 1.5dB typical
Splitter Loss = 3.5dB typical
Line Loss = 1db/18'
NF of Amp = 2dB (for CM7777)
NF of TV = 5dB typical (a quick email to the manufacturer should answer this)

Antenna Gain = 12dB (CM4228HD)
Amp Gain = 26db (UHF gain)

Keep in mind that in a "perfect world" you need at least +10dB of signal to get a station reliably. But we all know due to other "conditions" a perfect world is near impossible.

So looking at your TVfool, WGRZ is one of the worst of the Buffalo bunch with a NM of -10.9dB. Using the above:
TS= (-10.9) + (26+12) - (1.5+3.5+2+5+5.5) - assuming if using a splitter...just for shits and giggles
TS= 9.56dB

You have to remember that the NM in TVFool is based on signal propagation across the air, and doesn't take into account extra natural/human obstructions...which will affect the NM in a more negative manner. So that -10.9dB could be more in the likes of -15dB once you pass through trees and buildings.

Brano
I hate Vogons
MVM
join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO
Ubiquiti NanoBeam M5 16

Brano to robman50

MVM

to robman50
What is the angle from your location between Toronto and Buffalo?
If it's 80 degrees or more I'd go with two antennas each pointed at one location combined via passive splitter (or combiner) and wouldn't bother with rotor. This is cheaper and you get both locations without need of constantly rotating the antenna. Also you should be fine with two CM4221HD. CN Tower tower over the lake is easy to get, Buffalo from your location is not too far either.

Check internet how to "fix" CM4221HD and CM4228HD as they have design flaw (at least earlier models did, not sure if CM fixed it by now. I've modded my CM4221 (takes 5 minutes) and it works perfectly)).
Marbles_00
join:2005-02-14
Hacketts Cove, NS

Marbles_00

Member

Yeah but he is below the escarpment, which will block the Buffalo stations. Adding a second antenna and combining them, the splitter loss could loose any chance of getting those Buffalo stations. If he want's to use two antennas, I'd be inclined to do what you suggested and use something like an HDhomerun with dual tuners. That way he can attempt to maximize the Buffalo antenna. He'll need to be pretty accurate to get those Buffalo stations, anything in between, with those poor NM figures, he'll most likely just get snow.

Robman, how high are you going with the setup?

Brano
I hate Vogons
MVM
join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO
Ubiquiti NanoBeam M5 16

1 edit

Brano

MVM

In that case I'd just get one 4221 or 4228 first, do some tests ...point in each direction and see what you can get, play with hight. Once you complete your tests you'll see whether you need rotor, 2nd antenna and/or pre-amp. No need to waste money on all the components upfront.

BTW: You can get all the components at Sayal »www.sayal.com ...they have CM antennas, CM pre-amps, cables.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

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to Marbles_00
Either on top of the house (20 feet) or on the back shed (10 feet).
Those numbers are just a wild guess.
Marbles_00
join:2005-02-14
Hacketts Cove, NS

Marbles_00

Member

Is that 20' max, or, 20' to top of house, then additional 5 to 10' for antenna mast? Mounted on top of the shed would most likely be fine for TO provide it is LOS of the CN tower. For any chance of getting Buffalo, you will want to mount on your house rooftop.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

robman50

Member

20' from the ground to the top of the house. so it might be a total of 30' high. i haven't really thought it through yet.
robman50

robman50

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Does any body know where I can buy a tower to put up the antenna? I prefer something local, like around the St.Catharines area to the Hamilton area.
Ssid Silver
join:2010-11-04

Ssid Silver

Member

Don't know the answer to that but there are probably a lot of people with a TV tower they'd just like to see gone, there seem to be some outfits that remove towers 'for free' and scrap them. A used tower might not be what you had in mind though.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

robman50

Member

If I put up a mast, how high does it have to be in order to get the Buffalo stations?
vintagewino
join:2003-07-22
Grimsby, ON

1 edit

vintagewino to robman50

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said by robman50:

Does any body know where I can buy a tower to put up the antenna? I prefer something local, like around the St.Catharines area to the Hamilton area.


Check these folks out: »nutechelectronics.com/

They have a branch on Parkdale in Hamilton, and a second branch on Neilson St. St. Catharines.

Robman, you keep inferring about "how high"? Without knowing your exact location, your AMSL, where the escarpment is with relation to you, everything would be a wild guess, at best, and totally wrong, at worst.

Suggestion from painful first-hand experience: pop over to the library and have a look at some contour maps. You will need 2 reference points: (1) your exact longitude & latitude (to the second), and (2) the exact longitude & latitude (to the second) of the desired US channel. That data is public record.

At that point, note your AMSL, and the target's AMSL. Draw a line from YOU to TARGET. Follow this line and see if the escarpment blocks the view. If it does, STOP. You will not be able to punch through the escarpment. It would the the equivalent of a Faraday shield.

The question then may not necessarily be "how high?", but "where?". Where does the escarpment no longer become your Faraday shield? Towers become bloody expensive very quickly.

The other thing to remember is with HDTV, the US stations have dropped power levels, AND redirected their antenna patterns away from Canada. Working the minor lobes of the antenna can also become a bit more "challenging".

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by vintagewino:

The other thing to remember is with HDTV, the US stations have dropped power levels, AND redirected their antenna patterns away from Canada. Working the minor lobes of the antenna can also become a bit more "challenging".

Only WUTV on Grand Island is pointed away from Canada, WNED and WNLO are also on Grand Island but don't use directional antennas. Other than those three, the rest of the Buffalo transmitters are located well south of the city in rural Erie County, and they're either pointed to the north - right toward Canada - or have no directionality at all.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

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what is AMSL?
I am at the base of the escarpment.
Ssid Silver
join:2010-11-04

Ssid Silver to robman50

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You could also look around your neighborhood to get an idea of what people are using (or have used) in terms of tower height, if you strike up a conversation the owner might tell you what they can pick up with their setup.
vintagewino
join:2003-07-22
Grimsby, ON

vintagewino to robman50

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said by robman50:

what is AMSL?
I am at the base of the escarpment.

Above Mean Sea Level.

Lake Ontario is approx. 80m AMSL.
Beamsville Fairgrounds are just under 100m AMSL.
Regional 81 through town is approx. 110m AMSL.
Regional 18 (Mountain St) & Queen St junction approx. 124m AMSL.
In less than 3 km, the land rises by another 75m to 200m AMSL.

Sadly, the Niagara Escarpment really shields you very well from the Buffalo sites. I think the highest tower you can normally get is 68 feet (~22m).

The folks at Nutech likely can get towers, so you can price them there, or they might be able to put you in contact with they who put those things up.

Here is a link for towers. Unfortunately, it is US (Michigain), so pricing & transportation & brokerage to here would be significant:
»www.solidsignal.com/pvie ··· ers&sku=

Assuming the 68 foot tower, don't forget the price of excavating a 50" x 50" x 48" hole to put the main supports in, as well as the 2+ yards of concrete to keep it vertical.

Oh, don't forget the antenna rotor & cabling, and feedline required.

I installed a 64 foot self-supporting tower over 25 years ago. Definitely not a project for the first timer!

But, back on topic, get to the contour maps to give you an idea of the heights you will have to climb to "see" the desired transmitter site(s). That's the easiest thing to do first.

Don't forget the desired stations transmitters' tower heights and AMSL's to figure how well they may be able to "see" you.
vintagewino

3 edits

vintagewino to Ssid Silver

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said by Ssid Silver:

You could also look around your neighborhood to get an idea of what people are using (or have used) in terms of tower height, if you strike up a conversation the owner might tell you what they can pick up with their setup.


Unfortunately, the (now expensive) cable had relegated most towers into ancient history.

On top of the Escarpment, 20 & 30 foot towers could generally get you some quite respectable results with a fringe antenna. Once you start coming down the Escarpment though, the Buffalo stations become very well shielded. Now, once you're nearer to St. Catharines, the story changes again, but for the better.

Edit:
There is an interesting feature in Tvfool.com. Go to the main page »www.tvfool.com/modeling/ ··· ndex.php and input your coordinates. Have it generate the analysis results.

Go to the list and select the callsign of the station you wish to review. A new window will open, and give you a cross section from transmitter antenna to your antenna. Put a piece of paper across your screen as a straight edge, from the TX antenna tip (gray line) on the LHS of the screen to a tiny gray dot at the bottom right corner (your antenna height). If the paper crosses any gray mass, that will be the land getting in the way (and the cause of your grief).

Addendum:
»www.tvfool.com/?option=c ··· a59160ce
puts the coordinates at the pizza place at Ontario & King St. Beamsville, with the antenna at ~ 25 feet above ground (rooftop). Toward the US not promising. Even CHCH (11.1), could have a bit of grief, even though it's 25km away! No problem for the CN Tower stations!!
robman50
join:2010-12-14

robman50

Member

the grey slops down from left to right. so is that good?
vintagewino
join:2003-07-22
Grimsby, ON

vintagewino

Member

The gray is the land. Using a straight edge, go from the tip of the gray on the LHS (station antenna top) to the bottom right little gray dot (you). The gray is the cross section topography. If there is any gray material above your straight line, that shadows your antenna, and you are, frankly, SOL. If there is no gray (land interfering), you're laughing.

See the enclosed pictorial. This is a plot from Ch. 15, WBNF to my place, which is just under 30 miles (50km) site to site. I have absolutely no hope of receiving that station due to that little hump near the RHS. If I lived ON that hump, I would quite likely be ok. In my case, I live on the wrong side of the hump on the right (I think it's Grimsby Point) to receive that station. I somehow doubt even a 100 foot tower with a helluva gain antenna + head preamp would help me.

As the 3 words they say in real estate: LOCATION .... LOCATION .... LOCATION.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

robman50

Member

I would like some help setting up my antenna.
I had gone out and bought the CM4228HD and I am going to set it up indoors and just temporary set it against a wall until the snow melts, the ground thaws out a bit and it gets a bit more warmer out.
So I got the 4228hd all assembled and I have a short (15 feet) coax (that a Cogeco tech installed) plugged in to it, so if I would like to use the 2 antenna setup (1 pointing north, 1 pointing south-east) and I know I will be risking a 3db loss? with a signal combiner. Do I have to connect the preamp to the 4228hd? or can I run it right to the distro amp and then the signal combiner?
Actually the big question is where do I place the distro amp? After the signal combiner or before?
I made a diagram to show what I am thinking. Hope this helps.
Old Yagi (antenna 2)------------------\/
4228HD (antenna 1)->Preamp->Coax->Signal Combiner->Distro amp->Tv's?
robman50

robman50

Member

Later in the spring I will have it all out side and it will have a rotor and a 50-100 feet of coax depending where the antenna would be mounted.
So the longer cable would need the pre amp and then the distro amp to the 2 tv's right?
LondonOntGuy
join:2004-05-12
London, ON

LondonOntGuy to robman50

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If someone's in an apartment building in London, and facing north (I can look out and see Queens ave), what's a good antenna to get from Walmart? Would one of those flat type models be good?

I assume I'll also need one of those HDTV converter type boxes as well, I don't plan on buying an HDTV for quite some time. I don't think Walmart sells them, but I have seen them at Best Buy. I guess those are pretty much all the same, and wouldn't really differ from brand to brand, right?
Ssid Silver
join:2010-11-04

Ssid Silver

Member

There's also the route of getting a tuner for the computer which would allow you to make recordings. Windows Media center can do this but they try to make it so you can't watch digital OTA in Canada, not sure why they do that but there is a workaround to allow it. Also there are other programs for recording tv, e.g. MythTV.
robman50
join:2010-12-14

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Walmart sells antennas?? wow I did not know that. lol
robman50

robman50 to Ssid Silver

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I got the WinTV HVR-950q which can do ATSC/NTSC/Clear QAM.
And that is how I found out about the digital ATSC.
Ssid Silver
join:2010-11-04

Ssid Silver

Member

I have one Hauppauge tuner, HVR 1250 which is a PCI-E x1 card. I wouldn't buy another internal tuner again as it requires a free slot and can only be used in a desktop computer. Recently I also got a USB tuner that only does digital, Kworld brand. Worked out to $25 including shipping from Newegg, think the other one was more like $60 when I got it.
Vomio
join:2008-04-01

Vomio to LondonOntGuy

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London really sucks for OTA TV and facing North is probably the worst.
Check out »www.tvfool.com/

I live near downtown and remember being able to pick up six channels using a free standing Radio Shack motorized flying saucer on a 16' mast in my back yard.
IIRC TVO, CFPL, CTV, Global, and a couple of others.

I considered rigging up a rotor and a high gain directional antenna on a mast, but the prospects didn't look good with possibly little improvement over what I already had. US stations were a long shot.

Due to spousal pressure to be able to watch certain programming and my personal dislike of Bell and Rogers, I ended up going with Shaw Direct to get reliable reception of stations that needed to be watched.

I also run a motorized Ku satellite dish for geek entertainment purposes.

I'm sorry to say that dishes need to see the Southern sky, so a Northern view eliminates that option.