 heat84Bit Torrent Apologist
join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL
1 edit | What if cities refused to pay the pensions? I'm a little confused on the public employee pension situation. Why don't the cities just refuse to pay the pensions. Then they get sued for breach of contract or whatever and take a one time loss of money instead of losing money each year. At least I that's how I thought it worked. But apparently its not?
Also, how do cops make 80k a year? There was an article in the paper here that said a 43 year old cop was making that much. That wasn't the subject of the article(He's caught in some kind of limbo where he gets paid eventhough he doesn't work). I had no idea cops made that much. And he's not even a detective. No wonder almost every city in the country has a budget deficit. They're paying cops as if they have doctorate degrees. I know they put their life on the line and all that, but 80k seems ridiculous. Doesn't cop pay start in the 20k range? Doing some rough math, he got $1.05 an hour raise every year.
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| Not sure about pensions but salaries are out of control. How about $100,000+ a year to collect tolls?
Some toll takers raking in $100G
»www.bostonherald.com/news/region···=1314270
You can risk you life being a cop for $80k or sit in a toll booth and collect quarters all day for $100k. Not a hard choice for me. |
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 SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.Premium
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Mentor, OH
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| reply to heat84
Not sure about government, but business have forfeited pension plans.
Though I think that once the plans have been forfeited by the company, the insurance that covered said plans pays the balance owed at a reduced amount.
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 VoxxjinCool Blue TrollPremium
join:2010-01-13
San Antonio, TX
·Time Warner Cable
| reply to heat84
Police salaries depend upon the department. usually rural areas have lower pay. Those in cities typically recieve higher pay. I think in Phoenix in the 90's starting pay was around $35k but the average pay was $50k. Regarding the cop in your post, was that his actual salary or did that also include OT? Some OT is paid by different organizations that have requested PD to be there. I knew contract security officers at the US State Dept that made $60-80k a year even though their base was around $30-35k. How? Lots and lots of OT.
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| reply to heat84
said by heat84:I'm a little confused on the public employee pension situation. Why don't the cities just refuse to pay the pensions. Then they get sued for breach of contract or whatever and take a one time loss of money instead of losing money each year. At least I that's how I thought it worked. But apparently its not? they can't...... all they can do is what many have done - pay nothing into their pension funds for decades (leaving it only getting employee contributions plus investment returns - whilst it bears the full cost of current pensions and storing up trouble for the future because of their ponzi-esque behaviour...)
said by heat84:Also, how do cops make 80k a year? There was an article in the paper here that said a 43 year old cop was making that much. That wasn't the subject of the article(He's caught in some kind of limbo where he gets paid eventhough he doesn't work). I had no idea cops made that much. And he's not even a detective. No wonder almost every city in the country has a budget deficit. They're paying cops as if they have doctorate degrees. I know they put their life on the line and all that, but 80k seems ridiculous. Doesn't cop pay start in the 20k range? Doing some rough math, he got $1.05 an hour raise every year.
it varies enormously depending on the location {and therefore the prevailing wages locally, and indeed risks of the job} - and most (but not all) PDs place restrictions on officers home location that prevents them commuting from a cheaper location outside the area that the department covers...
for some PDS 80k is modest for an experienced officer {and remember if he "makes" 80k a year that probably includes some overtime also.... very hard not to rack up some overtime in a PD unless you have a desk job, or live in a crime dfree zone, because of court time.... }
SFPD starting pay is $82,602/year plus overtime - rising to $110,526 even if no promotions achieved. retire at 50+ with 3% of pay per year of service, max 90%.... 2years college required unless an experienced cop from elsewhere... but living in SF ain't cheap...
»www.sfpdcareers.com/benefits.html
NYPD starts at $44,744 in the acadamy rising to $90829 (plus overtime) after 5.5 years service..... again 2 years college required (unless a vet)
the best paying PDs are, for those who knuckle down and pass the exams to get promoted, the best public sector jobs in the US (except for POTUS, thanks to the huge pension aquired - even if you only serve for a day - as long as you aren't impeached.....) - an NYPD captain (of which there are no less than 408, and another 330 in higher ranks) - the highest rank attainable simply by passing the relevant exams (for sergeant, leitenant and then captain) and waiting for the vacancies - can expect to retire after 22 years with a pension of over $92k/year - even more if they stay on. no federal employee, or military officer, can earn such a pension
your local PD also starts at way over the paltry level you imagine....
quote:
ANNUAL SALARY - $47,257.60 - $70,449.60
Non-Certified Applicants:
Non-Certified Officers pay range - $47,257.60 to $70,449.60
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Top pay is based on the FOP negotiated 2007 – 2009 contract and may be reached within 6 years of service.
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Average workweek is a shift-based forty (40) hours with overtime or compensatory time off (earned at a rate of time-and-one-half) for hours in excess of forty (40) hours in a standard workweek. After one (1) year of service with the City, a Police Officer may request preference for shift assignment once each calendar year. Such assignment is based upon preference and departmental seniority.
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Police Officers are eligible for normal retirement after twenty (20) years of service computed at three and three eights percent per year (3.375). The retirement plan is supported by the City and is contributory on the part of the employee, who is required to contribute seven (7%) percent of his/her gross salary.
»www.flpd.org/index.aspx?page=82
so retire after 20 years with 67.5% of pay 
and unlike most high paying PDs, FLPD will take a 19 year old (most insist on 21) with HS/GED.....  - so one could potentially retire before one's 40th birthday on just over $47.5k/year for the rest of one's life
{LAPD and Oakland PD will also take HS/GED, but you still have to be at least 21...} |
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 KrisnatharokCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
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| Look up what Detroit is paying its cops. They have resorted to giving foreclosed on houses to cops at $1000 as an added incentive. Not everyone makes bank, and NYC is ridiculously expensive even though there is something like 12mill living there.
A well-paid cop is less likely to fall prey to corruption, although that isn't necessarily relevant to the current budget crisis--just something to keep in the back of the head. 
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Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL | NYC is probably getting their money's worth anyways. Remember how crime ridden the city used to be. For one example, there were 536 murders last year compared with 2245 in 1990. Even over the past 10 years there have been major decreases in the other main catagories.
»www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/···2010.pdf |
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 dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | NY State has the 5th lowest crime rate in the country. The State also has the 10th lowest incarceration rate in the Country. In 1990, the NYC homicide rate was 30.7 per 100,000, and now its, in 2009 the rate dropped to 6 per 100,000.
That's an 80% drop in the homicide rate in 20 years.
Although police and law enforcement enjoy taking credit for such decreases in crime, and further justifying their compensation, the impact of policing strategies or even the number of police in an agency on crime is over exaggerated.
There are currently 34,500 NYC officers (and will drop to 32,000 this year), however in 1990 - 2000 there were over 41,000 officers. If you decrease the number of cops, shouldn't the crime rate increase if the two factors are linked?
So less people in prison in NY + less cops on the street = decrease in crime? |
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| reply to Krisnatharok
detroit PD said by Krisnatharok:Look up what Detroit is paying its cops. $32,613 starting pay, rising to $33613 after leaving the academy, then in annual stages to $53237 after 5 years {which goes quite far in Detroit} - plus shift pay (unless on the morning shift) and overtime....
and they'll take an 18 year old with HS/GED {and potentially take someone with a (single) misdemeanor conviction at least 5 years old..... }
retirement eligibility is after 25 years, at 62.5% of "Average Final Compensation" (the average of the "maximum rate of pay" fixed by the budget, at the time of your termination, of the rank or ranks held during one's last five years of service) or one can stay on for another (up to) 10 years gaining another 2.1% of AFC per year on the pension
said by Krisnatharok:They have resorted to giving foreclosed on houses to cops at $1000 as an added incentive.
hmm - giving foreclosed houses to cops is, afaik, a way of improving the (inner city) neighbourhoods (at federal expense)... would you rather have a vacant property (soon to be a crack house?), or a cop as a neighbour?
unlike most of the country, in Michigan a City cannot force it's officers to live there - so they can commute from outside Detroit (and most do)
quote:
Mayor Dave Bing today announced an unprecedented program to entice police officers to move back into the city by offering ownership of 200 tax-foreclosed homes in two of the city's most stable neighborhoods. Flanked by top police brass and administration officials, Bing helped detail the program called "Project 14" in which foreclosed homes will be available in the East English Village and Boston-Edison neighborhoods. The program name alludes to police code for "back to normal." Officers will pay up to $1,000 for the houses and receive up to $150,000 in federal grants to rehab them. City officials said the homes are in good shape for abandoned properties but need some work.
The mayor said that police officers "living in their neighborhoods have the potential to deter crime, increase public safety and improve relations between the community and our sworn officers."....As more homes have become vacant and crime has been a nagging problem in the city for decades, Bing said this incentive program is critical to bringing people back. The city has lost half its population since it reached a peak of about 1.8 million in 1950. More left after the state Legislature banned municipal residency ordinances in 1999 requiring workers to live in cities that employ them.
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At least 53 percent of the city's 3,000 police officers in Detroit live in the suburbs and the numbers are even higher for firefighters, the mayor said......The city is using $30 million in federal Neighborhood Stabilization Funds to pay for the program. It includes safeguards that would require police to repay money for the house if they sell it to someone other than a police officer.
»www.detnews.com/article/20110207···it-funds
seems like a win-win to me {with the "loosers" being the federal taxpayers who are funding it......} |
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| reply to Midgard
Re: What if cities refused to pay the pensions? Same with some parking attendants here:
"with 16 garage jockeys taking home upwards of $90,000 last year, a Herald payroll analysis found.
Seven overtime-guzzling “parking utility technicians” — all members of Teamsters Local 25 Parking — pocketed a whopping $100,000-plus in pay, records show."
»www.bostonherald.com/news/region···sition=1 |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
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| You didn't quote the part where Massport said it was obliged to pay for huge amounts of overtime because they weren't allowed to hire.
That is the real story -- how a half-assed cost reduction measure that sounds good can actually end up costing more money.
Oh, and the Herald is a muck-raking rag. |
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horsemouthPlease Clarify My CSPPremium
join:2002-03-13
canada | said by dave:That is the real story -- how a half-assed cost reduction measure that sounds good can actually end up costing more money.
I have benefited from that stupidity in the past. [not my fault I was going to quit] The union BA said to me that he had negotiated 2x pay and 2x benefits after 40 hr. Well you got to be a moron [or have a life] Not to work hard for a few years for a fully funded pension. |
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 MaggsPremium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE
| reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:Look up what Detroit is paying its cops. They have resorted to giving foreclosed on houses to cops at $1000 as an added incentive. Not everyone makes bank, and NYC is ridiculously expensive even though there is something like 12mill living there.
A well-paid cop is less likely to fall prey to corruption, although that isn't necessarily relevant to the current budget crisis--just something to keep in the back of the head.
The 2009 population estimate for New York is 19,541,453. We pay the highest taxes in the nation as well.
»factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SA···ndustry=
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Hello, is anyone out there. |
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| said by Maggs:said by Krisnatharok:Look up what Detroit is paying its cops. They have resorted to giving foreclosed on houses to cops at $1000 as an added incentive. Not everyone makes bank, and NYC is ridiculously expensive even though there is something like 12mill living there.
A well-paid cop is less likely to fall prey to corruption, although that isn't necessarily relevant to the current budget crisis--just something to keep in the back of the head.
The 2009 population estimate for New York is 19,541,453. We pay the highest taxes in the nation as well. » factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SA···ndustry= err - that is an estimate for NY State in it's entirety....
population of NYC in the same estimates is:
Brooklyn (Kings county) 2,567,098
Bronx 1,397,287
Manhattan (New York county) 1,629,054
Queens 2,306,712
Staten Island (Richmond county) 491,730
total 8,391,881
»factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GC···-_sse=on |
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 DSL987
join:2000-03-22
Helotes, TX
1 edit | reply to pauldenton
said by pauldenton:SFPD starting pay is $82,602/year plus overtime - rising to $110,526 even if no promotions achieved. retire at 50+ with 3% of pay per year of service, max 90%.... 2years college required unless an experienced cop from elsewhere... but living in SF ain't cheap...
»www.sfpdcareers.com/benefits.html
This is why cities in California is screwed. By the time you add in pension spiking, you will have a guy retiring at age 55 with over $100K/year pension. If he lives to be 80 then you've paid him over $2.5 million in retirement and that's not even counting medical. Other states are also waking up to the fact that they are in similar positions.
I've got nothing against cops and firefighters, they deserve good money but it has to be reasonable and the pensions need to be cut back to be more in line with the private sector. Crap like pension spiking REALLY needs to be eliminated now.
Unfortunately the people negotiating these fat benefits don't realise that they are bankrupting the system and they might not collect even half of what they negotiated. |
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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| reply to heat84
I think counties have gone bankrupt, and courts have modified contracts. States however are sovereign, they may not be under the jurisdiction of a federal court the way a company, city, town or county is. I think the Constitution also provides states with a lot of immunities that other entities don't have.
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DSL987
join:2000-03-22
Helotes, TX | Here is a great article on the problem.
»www.latimes.com/news/opinion/edi···80.story
"Many state and local government employees have been promised pensions that the public couldn't have afforded even had there been no [market] crash." |
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DannyZGentoo FanboyPremium
join:2003-01-29 | reply to pauldenton
fwiw the census count for the NYC urban area, not just NYC proper, is right around 19 mil as well |
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1 edit | said by DannyZ:fwiw the census count for the NYC urban area, not just NYC proper, is right around 19 mil as well
yep - but it is defined as the "New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, New York-New Jersey-Pennsylvania Metropolitan Statistical Area*" and so most of it is not really germane to the discussion of the NYPD:
a) who only cover the "5 boroughs"
and
b) whose officers must reside in either the 5 boroughs themselves, or a few designated "residence counties" that abut them, and are also in NY State - Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam or Orange Counties - whose populations are:
Nassau County 1,357,429
Suffolk County 1,518,475
{together these 2 are the remainder of Long Island, with Brooklyn and Queens being the parts that are in NYC itself - Nassau is the nearest to NYC}
Orange County 383,532
Putnam County 99,265
Rockland County 300,173
Westchester County 955,962 {the second wealthiest county in NY State, after Manhattan.....}
map here
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_Y···ties.svg
i.e. about 4.6m live in the permitted "residence counties" on top of the circa 8.4m in NYC itself - the other 6.5m+ residents of NY State live too far north to work for the NYPD...
an NYPD officer has a much more restricted choice of housing than anyone else that works in NYC {and actually earns less than some of the PDs in the other counties they can live in, not more:
eg Suffolk county PD earn base pay of $108,608 after 5 years (no college requirement unlike NYPD either - and retirement eligibility is after 20 years not 22)
Nassau county PD earn base pay of $108,132 after 8 years, again with 20 years for retirement}
edit i.e. not just do the Long island PDs get to retire slightly earlier than the NYPD, but an officer there tops out at roughly what an experienced NYPD Sergeant tops out at....
* this consists of:
NY -
Kings County (Brooklyn), NY
Queens County, NY
New York County (Manhattan), NY
Bronx County, NY
Richmond County (Staten Island), NY
{i.e. NYC itself}
Suffolk County
Nassau County
{i.e. the rest of long island}
Westchester County, NY
Rockland County, NY
Putnam County, NY
{i.e one of the residence counties - orange -is not included in this count.... and the remainder of the count is out of State where an NYPD officer can't live either...}
NJ
Bergen County
Hudson County
Passaic County
Middlesex County
Monmouth County
Ocean County
Somerset County
Essex County, NJ
Union County, NJ
Morris County, NJ
Sussex County, NJ
Hunterdon County, NJ
PA
Pike County, PA |
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DannyZGentoo FanboyPremium
join:2003-01-29 | I knew it wasn't germane which is why I started with "fwiw", because it obviously did not have much worth to the current discussion. Relax, man |
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