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t3ln3t

@rr.com

at&t's usage meter has flaws!

But of course it isn't measuring accurately! The people working on it, are freaking idiots!
Back in the days I was an at&t employee, deploying a usage meter for hosting customers, the first two years, the meters didn't report anything accurately. They did get better, but only after at&t finally spent several millions dollars implementing a 'new' system.
Consultants and vendors were flown in to work out the bugs ... and in the end, they did get a working usage model.

I would be willing to bet, they're still using that vendor (Concord, now CA). The 'tool' is extremely expensive, and I've found from experience the vendor gives you a broken implementation, so you'll be forced to bring in countless consultants to fix it.

When I was working for at&t, I NEVER put much stock in the 'tools' monitoring servers and network elements. In EVERY role I held, for ten years, I ran MRTG/RRDTool with a generic SNMP agent, to watch things. The 'tools' were wrong half the time!!
Disk alarms, agent alarms, filesystem alarms ... often were misconfigured by at&t staff, but in other instances they just were monitoring and alarming on stupid shit!

Let me recall the days when I'd get paged in the middle of the night, because /cdrom was at 100% capacity. IT'S A FUCKING CD-ROM! OF COURSE IT'S AT 100% CAPACITY!!!
This went on, for YEARS! It finally got fixed, but kid you not, five years of being paged in the middle of the night because some ass clown left a CD-ROM mounted in a server. I routinely unmounted the CD-ROM when I was done, if I couldn't remove it. Eventually, once the servers supported it ... I just mounted up an ISO image, then unmounted it, and deleted it when I was finished with whatever maintenance activities were going on.

I expect the at&t UBB model will have similar ... well, let's call them "faults" for some time.
I do think UBB is here to stay, and rightfully so. There ARE customers on everyone's networks using more resources than expected. I saw it on at&t's network, back in my days as the Usenet Administrator ... I saw it in Enterprise and Web Hosting. I saw it again when I was running the DNS & NTP servers.
There are clients who saturate DSL links day and night! I saw a single client flood a DNS server in Midland, TX with requests for www.farmsex.com! I saw customers in Santa Clara, CA take 100GB a night from alt.binaries.* ... that was when at&t still had Usenet offerings, and still offered alt.binaries.* of course.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by t3ln3t :

I do think UBB is here to stay, and rightfully so. There ARE customers on everyone's networks using more resources than expected. I saw it on at&t's network, back in my days as the Usenet Administrator ... I saw it in Enterprise and Web Hosting. I saw it again when I was running the DNS & NTP servers.
There are clients who saturate DSL links day and night! I saw a single client flood a DNS server in Midland, TX with requests for www.farmsex.com! I saw customers in Santa Clara, CA take 100GB a night from alt.binaries.* ... that was when at&t still had Usenet offerings, and still offered alt.binaries.* of course.

Answer me this; How are users taking down 100GB a night from anywhere, unless the ISP is giving them the means to do so? By my calculations, that works out to something like 3-4GB a second. If an ISP didn't want them to transfer that much data, why would they offer them such a fast speed?

This is the part that doesn't make any sense to me. a user with 3Mbs service can pull down around 8-9GB a night. If AT&T feels the need to cap these users because of "congestion", why would they give users the option of paying for an even faster account that would allow them to take down anywhere from 16-32GB (and beyond), in a single night? Wouldn't that cause even more congestion on the network?

And why would anyone pay for a 12Mbs account if they're not allowed to use it to transfer large amounts of data? Either AT&T is monumentally stupid and thinks that people really do want to download their email faster, or they're selling accounts that they know people won't be able to actually make use of, due to their artificial restrictions.

If this was really about congestion, wouldn't it make more sense to lower everyone's speed? Lower speeds mean less data being transferred at the same time, which means that the network will be less congested, right?

Of course I know that the ISPs don't want to give up the higher-priced accounts, which is why they still offer them. I just don't see how they can legally justify selling people xx amount of service and then artificially limiting them to a tiny fraction of what that service is capable of.

Can the water company charge you for 100x your actual usage? When you buy a box of cereal, can the supermarket charge you for an entire carton? Of course not. So why are ISPs allowed to do this?

davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·AT&T Southeast
·Verizon Wireless..

People really do want to download their email faster. People want webpages to load faster, e-commerce sites to load faster, and photo sharing sites to load faster. And yet they will only use all those sites 3 hours per day. They do other things not involving the internet. Walking, football, tennis, fishing, laundry, cook, clean, change the oil, fix the fence, paint the room, play catch with a child, and stare at the stars. They want higher data transfer rates so they can do things other than waiting on downloads/uploads.



t3ln3t

@rr.com

reply to Rekrul
I know in the past, SBC in fact, DID limit the speed at which customers could hit the Usenet servers!

I'm not sure I recall exactly when this took place anymore, but every news server I built, got beat up pretty good by the early DSL users. It made it tough for other traffic on the network that management told me to limit Usenet traffic to ISDN speeds (128kbit/sec). I did what I was asked, and users hit the ceiling then! They were beyond outraged that PacBell sold them ADSL with up to 6mb download speeds, yet on PacBell's own network, Usenet was limited to 128kbit/s. There were even lawsuits because of it!

There is precedent for doing this in at&t, sadly ... and there just weren't that many customers who left because Usenet speeds got throttled.

I do admit, it was rather fun watching the DS3s and OC-3s connecting POPs in those days, go from pretty available to full, just because a new Usenet server went in

I had some of the first servers on the SBC network with Gigabit connectivity, and within a few months, needed more! It's too bad my naming convention didn't get approved.
HSP01.snfc21.pbi.net (HSP = High Speed Porn). Instead, they got nnrp and nntp names

Here's the funny thing: Usenet services were terminated in 2009 ... yet ALL the server names are still in DNS?


pnolte

join:1999-10-21
Chino, CA

reply to Rekrul
I would think that there would be less congestion on a faster system. If I could download a movie in two minutes rather in two hours, the tubes would be open for someone else to use.


Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to davidhoffman

said by davidhoffman:

People really do want to download their email faster. People want webpages to load faster, e-commerce sites to load faster, and photo sharing sites to load faster. And yet they will only use all those sites 3 hours per day. They do other things not involving the internet. Walking, football, tennis, fishing, laundry, cook, clean, change the oil, fix the fence, paint the room, play catch with a child, and stare at the stars.

Oh please. Anyone explicitly paying for anything faster than 3Mbs service to get web pages and email to load faster is just stupid. I started out with 3Mbs service and with very few exceptions, web pages loaded pretty much instantly. The only reason I'm paying $20-25 more for 12Mbs service is to be able to download large files faster. If I was only browsing web sites and reading email, I'd still be at 3Mbs.

I know a guy who's still using dialup because he says he doesn't mind waiting a couple extra minutes for a site to load, or email to download.

said by davidhoffman:

They want higher data transfer rates so they can do things other than waiting on downloads/uploads.

See, that's the whole point. They pay for faster speed so that they can UPLOAD and DOWNLOAD faster. As in files. Usually large files, which is exactly what the ISPs are trying to prevent people from doing by imposing caps.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to t3ln3t

said by t3ln3t :

I know in the past, SBC in fact, DID limit the speed at which customers could hit the Usenet servers!

I'm not sure I recall exactly when this took place anymore, but every news server I built, got beat up pretty good by the early DSL users. It made it tough for other traffic on the network that management told me to limit Usenet traffic to ISDN speeds (128kbit/sec). I did what I was asked, and users hit the ceiling then! They were beyond outraged that PacBell sold them ADSL with up to 6mb download speeds, yet on PacBell's own network, Usenet was limited to 128kbit/s. There were even lawsuits because of it!

I never used SBC's Usenet servers. I looked at them a few times when I got DSL in 2006, but all the missing parts and less than 24 hour retention time made them pretty much useless for binaries. I ended up buying credits on Astraweb and using them instead.

said by t3ln3t :

There is precedent for doing this in at&t, sadly ... and there just weren't that many customers who left because Usenet speeds got throttled.

Most people I talk to, don't even know what Usenet is. I've heard that most ISPs want to stop offering any Usenet access at all. The New York AG's child porn scare campaign made a good excuse for AT&T and some others to dump their news servers. Not that it was that great of a loss, but it makes it that much harder for new users to find out about Usenet.

said by t3ln3t :

Here's the funny thing: Usenet services were terminated in 2009 ... yet ALL the server names are still in DNS?

I'm pretty sure that some of the FAQs still mention newsgroup usage as well.

davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·AT&T Southeast
·Verizon Wireless..

reply to Rekrul
I forgot to mention getting software and software updates faster.

The ISPs are imposing caps because of rampant sharing of copyrighted video that cuts into the profit they share with content producers and copyright holders. AT&T would not be imposing caps if UVerse VOD and UVerse television did not exist. AT&T did not care how many YouTube videos of your house construction project, boat building adventure, and children's dance recitals you uploaded before Uverse. I do not think they cared much about the volume of jpeg, tif, doc, and other static files you sent back to the office server from your house while you were home sick, but completing some work project. The AT&T DSL system was probably 80% to 90% complete at the time Uverse first appeared. If everyone was paying for copyrighted video the way the copyright holders, cable companies, and Uverse type operators wanted, you would have seen a more nuanced approach to network congestion issues. As has been noted elsewhere, there are no limits to how many VOD payments you can make on Uverse or how many hours the regular Uverse TV channels stay on in your house. Regular TV and VOD takes up capacity also, but there are no caps, because you are paying for the copyrighted content. The ISPs are like the people in ancient times who scratched out an existence in a dry mountain region. When loads of valuable goods began to pass by them in the river valley below the cliffs, they demanded payment or they took your goods by force. They never cared before when goods they could not use or sell passed, it was just a curious passing of no importance.


Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to pnolte

said by pnolte:

I would think that there would be less congestion on a faster system. If I could download a movie in two minutes rather in two hours, the tubes would be open for someone else to use.

Networks have a finite capacity. When you have a faster speed, it causes more data to move through the network at once.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to davidhoffman

said by davidhoffman:

I forgot to mention getting software and software updates faster.

I still don't buy it.

said by davidhoffman:

The ISPs are imposing caps because of rampant sharing of copyrighted video that cuts into the profit they share with content producers and copyright holders. AT&T would not be imposing caps if UVerse VOD and UVerse television did not exist.

Yes, that's obvious.

What I was arguing is the legality of their ability to sell you a service and then prevent you from using it in the way it was obviously designed to be used.

davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·AT&T Southeast
·Verizon Wireless..

Well it is similar to renting a automobile. The rental car company can install devices that limit top speed, track your location, and monitor other aspects of use. They can decide that you are not allowed to tow anything, even if you are renting a Ford F250. The network is AT&T's and they get to set limits even though we do not like them or know the network is capable of more. For example Verizon FiOS should be easily capable of symmetric data transfer rates, yet most of the plans are asymmetric. Other companies, like EPB Fiber, give only symmetric plans for similar fiber infrastructure. It is all very legal.



whiteshp

join:2002-03-05
Xenia, OH

The whole reason we are getting caps is to stop Netflix and other HD video sources from competing with the cost of UVERSE TV.

If it was limited network bandwidth where AT&T said "we spend too much of our subscribers money on lobbyists to afford the big network feeds to support the use of advertised speed" then logic would be to cut speeds down (like 3mbits max) to match a estimated % of old backhaul to their % of overselling where customers won't notice as much congestion.

However you sell lots of 12 and 22 feeds and cap them at 250 gb then "customers can all still use high speed at same time" very easily creating the same problems. Using this model you have only removed only %2 (as AT&T says) of your subscribers from tying up their % of bandwidth at semi-frequent times. It's not going to improve limited backhaul bandwidth much at all.

However if you want to use your monopoly on your internet service to create new monopolies for your video service by stopping internet delivery of any competing services then you "cut off" your competitors from any volume bandwidth, buy out or sign-contract content companies from selling to smaller and cheaper alternatives, and then tell congress your too dirt poor or afford backhaul demand on what money you charge your customers and at the same time give lots of money to congress to vote on your bills that hurt your competitors).

IF you wanted a monopoly in the video services then the goal of capping makes perfect sense. It's congress's job to tell you otherwise (AT&T is just too $$ poor).

Monopolies OWN their customers. Customers CAN'T vote or chose with their services. So without regulation or oversight monopolies do ANYTHING to increase profits.


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