 JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | reply to justsomeguy8
Re: TekSavvy's new AUP bans servers? said by justsomeguy8:Valid complaints and debate is noise and static?
Excuse me if I disagree.
You can PM Rocky if you want, but I think it is vital that this thread continue on and that your little attempt at shutting down debate be tossed aside.
Are you a customer yet?
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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| said by JGROCKY:said by justsomeguy8:Valid complaints and debate is noise and static?
Excuse me if I disagree.
You can PM Rocky if you want, but I think it is vital that this thread continue on and that your little attempt at shutting down debate be tossed aside.
Are you a customer yet? Not yet. But rest assured I'm watching the London roll-out thread and am liking what I am seeing. However, I will wait to make sure that London users don't hit the bandwidth wall like your Vancouver rollout and some of your Toronto cable POIs have hit.
Thanks for asking. |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | reply to Angelo
said by Angelo:said by Whimsy:A lot of people are blowing the TOS+AUP out of proportion. What Teksavvy is doing is covering themselves with the new services that are planned to get rolled out. And as Rocky, who responded to this thread has said, if you have a problem, PM him with your concerns. We've got his ear, but it's going to be a lot harder if for him to hear our problems with this new TOS if all he's getting is noise and static.
Instead of lamenting the end of Teksavvy as we know it and the rise of the Bellocalypse/Rog-nerok, how about we critically assess the new TOS+AUP and look for seek clarifications?
so basically your saying to people who have FREEDOM OF SPEACH to shut up and suck it up... Too bad the reality is these tos/aup is a big deal and will affect a huge portion of tehir client base. They have the RIGHT to voice it in any medium they CHOOSE. Actually whimsy's right... The terms and conditions didn't deal with TPIA, or much of the most recent crtc decisions from the last two years. We're also very close to a VOIP launch which has some extra rules and regs to adhere to... Some stuff is also cya to provide flexibility to deal with abusive scenarios.
We're the same company, doing the same things, providing the same face value discussions/effort/relationships as we've always done. There are more complexities to deal with now as we try and diversify and provide customers more ways to use our services instead of partially us and partially other companies they may for now be forced to use...
This topic is shitty as it deals in the "when things turn bad"... It's like a pre/post nuptial. No one wants to do it as it's a sticky topic but in business it has to be done. We emailed everyone for 30 day notice for VoIP but also to continue in our open book efforts as we create change.
In any case, as was said above, send your concerns and I'll do my best to tweak/modify where it can be done.
Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | reply to justsomeguy8
said by justsomeguy8:said by JGROCKY:said by justsomeguy8:Valid complaints and debate is noise and static?
Excuse me if I disagree.
You can PM Rocky if you want, but I think it is vital that this thread continue on and that your little attempt at shutting down debate be tossed aside.
Are you a customer yet? Not yet. But rest assured I'm watching the London roll-out thread and am liking what I am seeing. However, I will wait to make sure that London users don't hit the bandwidth wall like your Vancouver rollout and some of your Toronto cable POIs have hit. Thanks for asking. Good stuff. You've been watching from the outside looking in for some time so looking forward to talking with the justsomeguy customer on these topics at some point!
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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| rocky please tweak :
Analyzing or penetrating an Internet host's security mechanisms.
change it to :
Analyzing or penetrating an Internet host's security mechanisms WITHOUT CONSENT FROM OWNER.
i occasionally run nmap scans of clients hosts with their consent. this could be a problem for me. tyia. |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | said by fluffy :rocky please tweak :
Analyzing or penetrating an Internet host's security mechanisms.
change it to :
Analyzing or penetrating an Internet host's security mechanisms WITHOUT CONSENT FROM OWNER.
i occasionally run nmap scans of clients hosts with their consent. this could be a problem for me. tyia.
Pm me this ok....I only ask so that I can keep things clean and separate for myself to track. It's very difficult otherwise to ensure all enquiries and heard or dealt with...
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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 AngeloThe Network GuyPremium
join:2002-06-18 | considering that you offer more then 1 service you should have different tos's based on the service. It's like saying you can download x y z on set network. and further down say but on x y a you can't do shit. pardon my french :P
i'm not against having an updated tos but this one seems very hostile and non consumer friendly. I'd myself would rather see a tos based on the type of service or a more friendly version of this tos. |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | said by Angelo:considering that you offer more then 1 service you should have different tos's based on the service. It's like saying you can download x y z on set network. and further down say but on x y a you can't do shit. pardon my french :P
i'm not against having an updated tos but this one seems very hostile and non consumer friendly. I'd myself would rather see a tos based on the type of service or a more friendly version of this tos.
Its a large undertaking but possibly something for the future...
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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| reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:said by JonyBelGeul:There's a clause where TSI forbids the customer to act in certain ways on the internet. This clause is unenforcable.It is unenforcable due to the method that must be used to enforce it. It is enforceable: when a subscriber keeps using the service to abuse people, servers, etc. on the internet, those subscribers get reported to the ISP and the ISP may choose to get rid of that subscriber to put an end to those complaints after verifying that they are legitimate. The internet community is self-policing and that clause is simply a tool the ISP can use to respond to community complaints against their subscribers. No, it is not enforcable because if there's a crime being committed, TSI does not have the power to act on it. That would be akin to being a vigilante, this is illegal in itself. The most TSI can do is alert the proper authorities.
For example, I troll an internet forum, one forum member complains to TSI, TSI sees that it does not have jurisdiction over its customer's action on that forum, notifies the forum moderators or simply notifies the plaintiff that TSI has no power to act on the complaint.
If TSI presumes to have power to act on that complaint, it effectively assumes the right to enforce any and every regulation all over the world and the universe ad nauseam. Vigilante magnum.
Rather, TSI does not have the power to give itself the power to act as a vigilante.
But it's written in the contract! It must be valid. No, it's not valid if it tries to circumvent the laws of this country. |
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| reply to mlerner
said by mlerner:Just because it was approved does not make it legally binding. I did not consent to Bell's AUP.
Precisely. Neither does it make any illegal clause suddenly valid just because they're in the contract. An illegal clause would be one that tries to circumvent the law. |
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| reply to JonyBelGeul
said by JonyBelGeul:For example, I troll an internet forum, one forum member complains to TSI, TSI sees that it does not have jurisdiction over its customer's action on that forum, notifies the forum moderators or simply notifies the plaintiff that TSI has no power to act on the complaint. Wrong. Forums rarely let other members know each others' IP addresses. The actual handling chain is:
1) members report the problem(s) to forum moderators
2) moderators examine the complaints and take action such as banning the member account
3) banned member creates a new account and resumes trolling
4) repeat from #1 a bunch of times, moderator starts sending complaints to the member's ISP for abuse
5) ISP verifies the complaints and notifies the subscribers that his activity is in violation of the terms of service
6) if complaints keep pouring in, the ISP may choose to terminate service
A violation of terms of service is not a crime, it is a violation of terms of service which the ISP can use that to justify service termination. |
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| said by InvalidError:A violation of terms of service is not a crime, it is a violation of terms of service which the ISP can use that to justify service termination. This TOS includes everything from picking your nose to killing cows. None of which is enforcable. The only really enforcable clause is whatever covers direct effect on TSI itself. Trolling on dslreports for example has no direct effect on TSI. Where such a clause would be enforcable is if dslreports hired TSI to do its moderating but then this clause would have to be posted on dslreports too. Is such a clause posted on dslreports? Does TSI offer such moderating services? |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | You seem very critical of many things on this matter. Unless you're continually in the grey matter of what the world considers unacceptable you should never have an issue. If there's something specific you have a beef with please feel free to pm me specifics. I can't be of help when you make non-specific comments or complaints. |
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| said by JGROCKY:You seem very critical of many things on this matter. Unless you're continually in the grey matter of what the world considers unacceptable you should never have an issue. If there's something specific you have a beef with please feel free to pm me specifics. I can't be of help when you make non-specific comments or complaints.
This is standard legal stuff, no idea why people are complaining (except the server stuff, but who can run a server with 800kpbs upload?) |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | said by gruntlord6:said by JGROCKY:You seem very critical of many things on this matter. Unless you're continually in the grey matter of what the world considers unacceptable you should never have an issue. If there's something specific you have a beef with please feel free to pm me specifics. I can't be of help when you make non-specific comments or complaints.
This is standard legal stuff, no idea why people are complaining (except the server stuff, but who can run a server with 800kpbs upload?) Server stuff's been fixed.
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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| said by JGROCKY:said by gruntlord6:said by JGROCKY:You seem very critical of many things on this matter. Unless you're continually in the grey matter of what the world considers unacceptable you should never have an issue. If there's something specific you have a beef with please feel free to pm me specifics. I can't be of help when you make non-specific comments or complaints.
This is standard legal stuff, no idea why people are complaining (except the server stuff, but who can run a server with 800kpbs upload?) Server stuff's been fixed. and other then that, I have no complaints. All standard.
When is VOIP launching? |
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JGROCKYPremium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | In the next 30 to 60 days... |
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 El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:2
 ·TekSavvy DSL
 ·WIND Mobile
 ·voip.ms
| reply to JonyBelGeul
said by JonyBelGeul:This TOS includes everything from picking your nose to killing cows. None of which is enforcable. The only really enforcable clause is whatever covers direct effect on TSI itself. Trolling on dslreports for example has no direct effect on TSI.
Although I'm opposed to this clause especially...
I think what it means is that if a forum gets repeated offenses from an IP that belongs to an ISP, and they proceed to contact the ISP it could be flagged for attention by the ISPs abuse department.
That being said... if I were an ISP and I received an email from a forum/newsgroup to my abuse email and it was regarding a non-spam/non-cybercrime issue, I'd tell the forum own to go fuck themselves gently with a chainsaw, and tell them to ban the offending user.
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The trouble with nude dancing is that not everything stops when the music does. |
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| said by El Quintron:said by JonyBelGeul:This TOS includes everything from picking your nose to killing cows. None of which is enforcable. The only really enforcable clause is whatever covers direct effect on TSI itself. Trolling on dslreports for example has no direct effect on TSI.
Although I'm opposed to this clause especially... I think what it means is that if a forum gets repeated offenses from an IP that belongs to an ISP, and they proceed to contact the ISP it could be flagged for attention by the ISPs abuse department. That being said... if I were an ISP and I received an email from a forum/newsgroup to my abuse email and it was regarding a non-spam/non-cybercrime issue, I'd tell the forum own to go fuck themselves gently with a chainsaw, and tell them to ban the offending user. Exactly. So at which point does TSI deem it justifiable to terminate its customer's service, when its customer's behavior turns criminal? But then if TSI does that, it starts acting like a vigilante which is itself a crime. At no point can TSI enforce any clause that does not directly affect TSI itself. Not when its customers behavior is non-criminal but goes against a third party's TOS for example, not when its customers behavior turns criminal. Never.
I mean, the sky's the limit with that kind of TOS. |
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| reply to JonyBelGeul
said by JonyBelGeul:Trolling on dslreports for example has no direct effect on TSI. If someone trolls DSLR to the point of multiple bans and get moderators to start reporting activity to the member's ISP, the ISP does incur the direct effect (cost) of having to evaluate those complaints.
The ISP, VPN and TOR exit nodes may also suffer the direct effect of seeing their IP blocks banned by the forum to prevent said member from accessing the site, thereby depriving all of the ISP/VPN/etc.'s other subscribers of services hosted on that server.
said by JonyBelGeul:Does TSI offer such moderating services? No such thing is required, forums are self-policing.
When a subscriber misbehaves to the point of getting its ISP banned from popular servers many of its subscribers are using, the ISP has to take decisive action to restore service and prevent that disruption from occurring again. That is what that clause is there for. |
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