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sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

Any Redytemp hot water recirculator pump experiences?

We are about to begin a kitchen remodel. One of the things I want is to put in a a hot water recirculator pump because the kitchen is the furthest sink from the water heater tank. So a remodel is the right time for me to get this done. A professional contractor will be hired for this remodel.

I looked at the Grundfos and Watts solutions online and while less expensive, the drawbacks for me in this remodel were that they appear to be needing to be installed at the hot water heater (no power outlet currently there), and deficiencies in the thermo-coupler design in comparison to the Redytemp units.

In looking at Redytemp units, and in particular the ATC-3000 model, the points that I liked were:
* Solenoid design that prevents crossover flow when the pump is inactive.
* Undersink design (arguably a disadvantage, but I like it in my case)
* Easy adaptation for on-demand use outside of timer-programmed hours. (I want an under (upper) cabinet hidden doorbell switch. Or maybe motion detector. To be determined.)

I will have the contractor's electrician install a GFCI outlet under the sink for it. I do not intend to have a dedicated pipe to return to the water heater and intend to have it use the cold water pipe for return. But if I read convincing opinions to do dedicated return, I am open to that.

Am I making a mistake going with Redytemp as opposed to the Grundfos or Watts kind of solutions? Anybody with a Redytemp unit that can share experiences before I buy?
--
nohup rm -fr /&


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

The problem with not having a dedicated return line is that you end up running cold water down the drain until the water comes out cold. Just the opposite of running hot water until it's hot. Run the return line now while you have a chance, it will save you in the long run.



ttiiggy
Premium
join:2001-03-27
Bozeman, MT

reply to sempergoofy

said by sempergoofy:

I do not intend to have a dedicated pipe to return to the water heater and intend to have it use the cold water pipe for return. But if I read convincing opinions to do dedicated return, I am open to that.

Where are you planning to have the water return TO?
I think you are going to get inconsistent temperatures.

YOU can possibly figure out how to make it work fine but somebody in the house is going to run the cold water pipe full of hot water.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

reply to sempergoofy
I would suggest you go with running a dedicated 1/2" return line with a simple gravity swing-check valve in the return. Tee the new hot return back into the cold supply, anywhere near the tank. Thermal convection alone is usually sufficient to maintain a constant circulation, chances are you may not even need a pump.

I have mine set up this way and it works like a charm without a pump. Make sure to provide a means to manually vent any trapped air in the return (one time) or else it won't be able to work on gravity. A stop & waste ball valve works fine for this.

Worst case scenario: if the gravity solution fails, then go ahead install a circulating pump, operating it with either a thermostat or a timer. The pump can go in anywhere; supply, return, doesn't matter.

Be sure to insulate the supply and return lines in any event.
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~



sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to ttiiggy

said by ttiiggy:

said by sempergoofy:

I do not intend to have a dedicated pipe to return to the water heater and intend to have it use the cold water pipe for return. But if I read convincing opinions to do dedicated return, I am open to that.

Where are you planning to have the water return TO?
I think you are going to get inconsistent temperatures.

YOU can possibly figure out how to make it work fine but somebody in the house is going to run the cold water pipe full of hot water.

Open loop system (as illustrated in the link) is the plan, unless the discussion convinces me to install a dedicated return. In my case, the kitchen sink would be the furthest point from the pump. I will post a diagram to give more info to influence discussion.
--
nohup rm -fr /&


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

1 edit

reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I would suggest you go with running a dedicated 1/2" return line with a simple gravity swing-check valve in the return. Tee the new hot return back into the cold supply, anywhere near the tank. Thermal convection alone is usually sufficient to maintain a constant circulation, chances are you may not even need a pump.

I have mine set up this way and it works like a charm without a pump. Make sure to provide a means to manually vent any trapped air in the return (one time) or else it won't be able to work on gravity. A stop & waste ball valve works fine for this.

Worst case scenario: if the gravity solution fails, then go ahead install a circulating pump, operating it with either a thermostat or a timer. The pump can go in anywhere; supply, return, doesn't matter.

Be sure to insulate the supply and return lines in any event.

A good suggestion, but our lifestyle and use of the kitchen is such that constant circulation as opposed to recirculation does not seem to be the best plan. Currently, the hot water lines all the way from the heater to the kitchen are foam insulated.

Edit to add: The discussions I have read elsewhere and also on the Redytemp site seem to point out that if you are constantly circulating water for reheating that you waste energy though heat loss from the pipes even during the hours when you do not need hot water at the tap. Timers for typical needs on the pumps help address this complaint, as would an on-demand signal to pump outside of the normal timed-event hours. My plan with this unit would be to also have an on-demand switch (doorbell style hidden beneath a cabinet next to the kitchen sink).
--
nohup rm -fr /&


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to sempergoofy

Click for full size
Rough diagram. Pump would go under kitchen sink.
A diagram to help folks have a better picture.

By the way, I am still interested in specific pump brand feedback on RedyTemp.
--
nohup rm -fr /&


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to sempergoofy
After more research, I'm convinced that I should go for a dedicated return from the pump to the water heater.

While it is copper from the water heater to the sink, I don't see any reason why PEX would not be sufficient for the dedicated return run.

I read one suggestion to use the water heater's sediment drain as the return connection while adapting it to also still allow the tank to be drained if required. The theory is that the returning water when the pump is active will swirl the water at the bottom of the tank similar to how the mechanical "roto swirl" tanks work. Any comments on that idea? (This water heater is less than 3 years old and I do open the drain every three months to try to remove any sediment (which I have yet to see with an eyeball)).
--
nohup rm -fr /&



Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by sempergoofy:

While it is copper from the water heater to the sink, I don't see any reason why PEX would not be sufficient for the dedicated return run.

I read one suggestion to use the water heater's sediment drain as the return connection while adapting it to also still allow the tank to be drained if required. The theory is that the returning water when the pump is active will swirl the water at the bottom of the tank similar to how the mechanical "roto swirl" tanks work. Any comments on that idea? (This water heater is less than 3 years old and I do open the drain every three months to try to remove any sediment (which I have yet to see with an eyeball)).

That's exactly how ours is set up including the PEX. It works really well with no problems. It's a really does seem to reduce the amount of sediment in the tank.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

reply to sempergoofy
PEX is fine to use. You could tie into the drain but it's easier to tee the recirculation return piping into the tank cold supply. The water flow will be directed to the bottom of the tank through the internal dip tube.
Don't forget to install a swing check valve in the return piping to prevent back flow during a hot water draw.
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~



sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to Msradell

said by Msradell:

That's exactly how ours is set up including the PEX. It works really well with no problems. It's a really does seem to reduce the amount of sediment in the tank.

Any chance you might post a pic of the connection so I can get a good idea of the component parts required?
--
nohup rm -fr /&


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to jack b

said by jack b:

PEX is fine to use. You could tie into the drain but it's easier to tee the recirculation return piping into the tank cold supply. The water flow will be directed to the bottom of the tank through the internal dip tube.
Don't forget to install a swing check valve in the return piping to prevent back flow during a hot water draw.

I didn't know that there was a Sharkbite swing check valve. That ought to make it easy to put it into the pex tubing run.
»www.plumberscrib.com/sharkbite-c···lve.aspx
--
nohup rm -fr /&


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

2 edits

Theirs is a spring check valve. It's spring-loaded to hold it closed. That will correction, should work fine for a pumped return, provided the pump head pressure is sufficient to overcome the force of the spring.

If you decide to try gravity circulation a SWING check is the proper choice. A swing check has a flapper valve suspended from a hinge that uses water pressure alone to close it tightly, no springs.
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~



sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA

Ah. Thank you for clarifying.
--
nohup rm -fr /&


livgreenlife

join:2011-05-14
Alamogordo, NM

reply to ttiiggy
We considered installing a dedicated return line but figured we didn't need 120 degree water instantly coming out our taps due to concerns of scalding and the kids, that and the higher energy waste involved compared to using our cold line for the return.

In response to ttiiggy, the only way the cold water pipes could get full of hot water would be if the pump ran beyond the temperature cut-off setting we selected. I think your talking about systems that use thermostatic valves which get stuck open, but I've only found those in other hot water circulators and not the Redytemp. The main reason they use solenoid valves in their systems were to prevent the problem you described. We've had our Redytemp for 6-7 years now without any problems. If we ever do move it will probably be one of the first things the wife packs, she just loves it.



sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

said by livgreenlife:

We considered installing a dedicated return line but figured we didn't need 120 degree water instantly coming out our taps due to concerns of scalding and the kids, that and the higher energy waste involved compared to using our cold line for the return.

In response to ttiiggy, the only way the cold water pipes could get full of hot water would be if the pump ran beyond the temperature cut-off setting we selected. I think your talking about systems that use thermostatic valves which get stuck open, but I've only found those in other hot water circulators and not the Redytemp. The main reason they use solenoid valves in their systems were to prevent the problem you described. We've had our Redytemp for 6-7 years now without any problems. If we ever do move it will probably be one of the first things the wife packs, she just loves it.

Welcome to dslr livgreenlife See Profile. My mind has been off this topic for a week or so. Why would there be higher energy waste with the dedicated return compared to pumping across to cold? Would seem to just be a different path for the water take, and as hot water exits the water heater on its way to the pump, previously-heated water is pumped into the water heater via the dedicated return to displace it as opposed to not-previously-heated cold water entering the water heater for the first time. I would think the water heater would expend the same energy to heat or reheat whichever water from a closed or open loop system enters it.
--
nohup rm -fr /&


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

reply to sempergoofy

said by sempergoofy:

We are about to begin a kitchen remodel. One of the things I want is to put in a a hot water recirculator pump because the kitchen is the furthest sink from the water heater tank.

I know this is an off topic answer but have you considered installing an under counter point of use electric water heater?

Wayne
--
If ballot don't work, bullets will.
Joyce Kaufman July 3, 2010


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

said by 49528867:

said by sempergoofy:

We are about to begin a kitchen remodel. One of the things I want is to put in a a hot water recirculator pump because the kitchen is the furthest sink from the water heater tank.

I know this is an off topic answer but have you considered installing an under counter point of use electric water heater?

Wayne

I considered one early on in the thought process. A significant benefit that the pump solution brought to the table is that the master bath will get benefit from the same pump like the kitchen will since the master bath tees off of the same hot water pipe on its way to the kitchen. Reference the diagram in one of my posts above. So the pump kills two bird with one pump.
--
nohup rm -fr /&


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

said by sempergoofy:

A significant benefit that the pump solution brought to the table is that the master bath will get benefit from the same pump like the kitchen will since the master bath tees off of the same hot water pipe on its way to the kitchen.

Since you are going to heat the fixtures in the bath where not waiting for hot water is nice to have as well, the pump is definitely the way to go versus a single heater and a high amp outlet to power it and being as the hot water piping is insulated it should work well.

My plan with this unit would be to also have an on-demand switch (doorbell style hidden beneath a cabinet next to the kitchen sink).


You might want to consider an occupancy sensor there are inexpensive and that way if there is motion in the kitchen the hot water line will remain charged, drop another wired in parallel in the bath and no buttons to push or timers to turn need be remembered.

Wayne
--
If ballot don't work, bullets will.
Joyce Kaufman July 3, 2010


sempergoofy
Premium
join:2001-07-06
Smyrna, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

said by 49528867:


You might want to consider an occupancy sensor there are inexpensive and that way if there is motion in the kitchen the hot water line will remain charged, drop another wired in parallel in the bath and no buttons to push or timers to turn need be remembered.

Wayne

The motion sensor is definitely on my consideration list, but more for the bathroom than the kitchen. In my mind, I envision our kitchen having other significant traffic during the day that would never approach the sink as it is a somewhat major thoroughfare of the house. When the master bath gets traffic, there will likely be hot water used (hand washing, for example). The morning programmed schedule I will program into the pump will already have things primed for the kitchen and our master bath showers.

The redytemp site has a bunch of suggestions on ways to automate on-demand use. »www.redytemp.com/view-hot-water-···ator.php

Scroll down halfway through that page link (after the pump stuff) and hopefully you will see a section about "ON-DEMAND OPERATION USING RJ11 PHONE JACK". They put an RJ11 style jack on the pump box (could easily have been just two exposed screws, but this keeps the connection clean looking). You can plug a simplex, or duplex or triplex RJ11 adapter to accommodate more on-demand circuit closure signals. They also show suggested x-10 sensors including motion and wireless transmitters. They also quote sample prices they found for the components and have a link to a fifteen dollar off coupon if you shop at x10.com
--
nohup rm -fr /&

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