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diversity1

join:2011-06-09
canada

[Scam] Masterfile

got an invoice for a picture on our web site of a couple of kids tubing that looked like it was taken by a mom and it says it was taken by an "artist" named Bill Frymire. I went to his website and I think he takes random pictures like that that people would upload to their web site to make money. On his website there is a link to Masterfile! My invoice is for $2271.30 for a picture that a kid could of taken.
Just got the letter and had the picture taken off.
What is my next move? Obviously I am not paying that amount.
Thanks for any help



Dennis
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-26
Algonquin, IL
kudos:5

»Masterfile Corp. in Canada says we are using their graphic



Bill Frymire

@shawcable.net

Hello Diversity1, Bill Frymire here, I don't appreciate your insinuation that I am a scammer. Contrary to popular belief, all photos posted on the internet are not free for the taking, even if a mom or a kid took them. If the photo was so bad, why did you steal it?

This is not a scam, this is how I make my living, usually from people who pay. Yes, there is a link to Masterfile, so that if you want to use the image you can pay for it!

»www.billfrymire.com/gallery/chil···jpg.html

Did you notice that all of my photos on my website have copyright notices on them? Masterfile is collecting on my behalf.

You are the person that used a photo without permission so why attack the "artist"?



Gustave Dore

@jillyred.net

1 edit

Bill, it's good to see that you have no issue filling out your site with copies of old images. Pray tell- where did you copy them from? Do you own all the original art for what you have up on your site here and here?

Example:




Bill Frymire

@shawcable.net

Gustave, one of my hobbies is collect very old books.I bought the books. If a book is published before 1923, it is in the public domain. I took photos of the art contained within. If you want to buy an old book and do the same, go right ahead. But I see you have been dead for 127 years!


garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus
reply to Bill Frymire

said by Bill Frymire :

Hello Diversity1, Bill Frymire here, I don't appreciate your insinuation that I am a scammer. Contrary to popular belief, all photos posted on the internet are not free for the taking, even if a mom or a kid took them. If the photo was so bad, why did you steal it?

This is not a scam, this is how I make my living, usually from people who pay. Yes, there is a link to Masterfile, so that if you want to use the image you can pay for it!

And how do we know you really have a copyright on those files? How do we know YOU didn't troll the Internet, copy them and illegally claim them as your own?


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
reply to Bill Frymire

said by Bill Frymire :

I bought the books. If a book is published before 1923, it is in the public domain. I took photos of the art contained within. If you want to buy an old book and do the same, go right ahead.

It sure looks like that doesn't give you copyright to those public domain images.

Gustav Dore' Engavings - Public Domain?
»answers.google.com/answers/threa···d=378224
quote:
Gustave Doré's wonderful illustrations are all in the public domain and therefore noone (including Dover) can copyright them - only *original* (or modified) material (whether illustrations or text) are protected under the copyright law.

--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX

1 recommendation

said by Doctor Olds:

said by Bill Frymire :

I bought the books. If a book is published before 1923, it is in the public domain. I took photos of the art contained within. If you want to buy an old book and do the same, go right ahead.

It sure looks like that doesn't give you copyright to those public domain images.

That makes this whole thing seem more like those speculative invoicing schemes that legal firms like ACS:Law and US Copyright Group were/are engaging in, or more closely like what Righthaven has been doing.
--
I, for one, welcome our new Computer Overlords.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

I agree completely. His claims of copyright are documented only by his say-so. Buying a book that is in the Public Domain does not give you ownership of the material in that book.

I do think that this is the perfect forum for what this is, a scam.



TearAbite
D'oh

join:2001-07-25
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
kudos:2
reply to diversity1

My question to the OP is: did you use the copyrighted image with permission or a license?

The answer to this question will determine your options and/or liabilites..
--
...


diversity1

join:2011-06-09
canada
reply to Bill Frymire

My question to you Bill would be how much income do you make from people going to your web site and paying for the use of photos verses this way.We would never have used the picture with the 2 kids tubing if we had thought that it would cost over 2 grand to have it on our web site for a couple of months. We took it down as soon as we found out that it was copyrighted.



Gustave Dore

@apexcovantage.com

Especially since that's grossly inflated from the prices Masterfile claims to charge. You could pay more, actually, but you have to work at it. Here's an example of charges:




A question, though- did the image you had on your site have any kind of copyright indicia or watermarking on it? Do you remember where you found it?


Stacy
FotoDogue
Premium
join:2001-11-02
New York, NY
reply to diversity1

So you, or your designer, lifted a photo from the web and now that you've been caught you're calling it a scam? That's rich!

Price calculator on the Masterfile would be the usual rate if you had licensed the image properly. Anything above and beyond that is a penalty for using the image without permission and violating the copyright.


garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

said by Stacy:

So you, or your designer, lifted a photo from the web and now that you've been caught you're calling it a scam? That's rich!

I agree that taking images without permission and legal agreement is wrong, and that doing so can lead to penalties.
said by Stacy:

Price calculator on the Masterfile would be the usual rate if you had licensed the image properly. Anything above and beyond that is a penalty for using the image without permission and violating the copyright.

My point is that how do we know that Masterfile really does own the pictures that they claim to? How do we know that they don't:
1) see a fairly generic picture on someone's website,
2) copy that,
3) post it on their own site with a (illegal) copyright notice,
4) then go after the original source and claim damages?

I can't help but wonder if that's what's going on here.

diversity1

join:2011-06-09
canada
reply to Gustave Dore

There was nothing that I could see. I googled images of kids tubing and it came up.



psafux
Premium,VIP
join:2005-11-10
kudos:2

said by diversity1:

There was nothing that I could see. I googled images of kids tubing and it came up.

In the future don't just 'google' images for use on your site. You are asking for trouble.

While I agree the compensation request is outrageous it is within their right to demand that amount if they hold the copyright to that picture.

In the future, make sure you use royalty free images or only use images for which you can verify the copyright & usage requirements.

There are many places that contain royalty free images & illustrations. Many require only a link back to the copyright holder, some don't even require that.


Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable
reply to diversity1

said by diversity1:

got an invoice...

Who & what you are should determine your course of action.
Personally, I'd challenge them to a day in small claims, but that's me.
"Question: Can I post a copyrighted image on my website?

Answer: Maybe. In order to determine whether you can post a copyrighted image on your website, a court would apply the four factor fair use analysis.

First, it is important to determine the purpose and character of the use. If the use is commercial in nature, rather than for nonprofit education purposes, it less likely to be considered a fair use...
Second, the court would consider the nature of the copyrighted work...

»www.chillingeffects.org/copyrigh···eID=2600

ps if you are going to use art, try using the work of a real artist next time.

Whip

join:2009-01-23
Califon, NJ
reply to diversity1

How did 'Bill' know to come to this site within a day of this thread posting to defend 'himself'?



TearAbite
D'oh

join:2001-07-25
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
kudos:2

said by Whip:

How did 'Bill' know to come to this site within a day of this thread posting to defend 'himself'?

GoogleAlerts..
--
...

Whip

join:2009-01-23
Califon, NJ

Ah, didn't think of that. I'm not paranoid enough I guess.



Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable

said by Whip:

Ah, didn't think of that. I'm not paranoid enough I guess.

Nor are you a scam "artist".


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
reply to garys_2k

said by garys_2k:

said by Bill Frymire :

Hello Diversity1, Bill Frymire here, I don't appreciate your insinuation that I am a scammer. Contrary to popular belief, all photos posted on the internet are not free for the taking, even if a mom or a kid took them. If the photo was so bad, why did you steal it?

This is not a scam, this is how I make my living, usually from people who pay. Yes, there is a link to Masterfile, so that if you want to use the image you can pay for it!

And how do we know you really have a copyright on those files? How do we know YOU didn't troll the Internet, copy them and illegally claim them as your own?

All images that he has taken himself using his camera will have EXIF data stored unless he scrubbed that data out of the image files (most people don't know that EXIF data exists). One could look at the EXIF data of a few images (or the lack thereof) and very likely determine the origins of some if not all images. Patterns in the EXIF data can be looked at and determinations can be made from there.

Using EXIF Data
»www.digital-photography-school.c···xif-data
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?

harald

join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to diversity1

With respect to copyright, every creation has a copyright belonging to the creator as of the instant of creation.

To enforce that copyright, however, you must register it.

So the issue in this case is "show me the registration".


garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

said by harald:

With respect to copyright, every creation has a copyright belonging to the creator as of the instant of creation.

To enforce that copyright, however, you must register it.

So the issue in this case is "show me the registration".

^^^

+1!


JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to harald

Re: [Scam] Masterfile: TOTALLY A SCAM

said by harald:

With respect to copyright, every creation has a copyright belonging to the creator as of the instant of creation.

To enforce that copyright, however, you must register it.

So the issue in this case is "show me the registration".

This is the correct answer.

Just to add some clarity here, even if not registered, the creator (or owner, in the case of 'works for hire') can also enforce their copyright (which is gained at creation, as you said).

Either way (registered or not) this gives the creator/owner the right to say how, when, where, etc., an image (in this case) is used and to enforce those rights. BUT, those rights are limited unless the work is registered.

Unregistered, the copyright holder has the right to demand that their work cease to be used or compensated. If ceased, no compensation is due. Not unless it's registered.

If a work is registered, then there are additional civil remedies afforded here... which is not the case here, because:

This work is NOT registered, not to Bill Frymire or anyone.

The work in question is public domain and no one holds the rights. Not even a guy who takes a photo of it and claims his photo is copyrighted. He could never register that for a fact.

Bill Frymire, as a (formerly very active) photographer myself who has had a lot of experience with copyright issues, I know darn well as you that this isn't registered to you and you have no rights here. Not unless you can prove registration.. WHICH YOU CAN'T. The work in question has been pulled, so you have no other rights or claims here.

Don't come back here nor bother this individual again... Not unless you want me to pull every citation which I would have already, but I am under the weather, and too darn tired and cranky at the moment to do so.. BUT I will if you do, which will only piss me off more and end the same exact way if you do. You lose. Move along.

OP: Be this a lesson to you. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's free. Someone created it and is due their rights to either be compensated or their right to give it away for free if they wish... not you. That don't get to decide for them.

-Jim


JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net

And one other thing, Bill Frymire.. I'd also be pulling out the citations on CRIMINAL violations for altering and mis-representing copyrights too.. just so you know.



tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
Co-Lead Mod
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to JALevinworth

JA- the image at issue in the OP may or may not be registered; this is a separate issue from the Dore and other works claimed by Bill Frymire.
--
***ATMFAQ***DIFAQ***Kitchen Sink***



Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable

said by tmpchaos:

JA- the image at issue in the OP may or may not be registered; this is a separate issue from the Dore and other works claimed by Bill Frymire.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out - I was struggling with effectively phrasing that.


JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to tmpchaos

Understood.... I'm still cranky (apologies), but understood.



Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6

said by JALevinworth :

Understood.... I'm still cranky (apologies), but understood.

I sincerely hope your recovery takes a fast turn into the fast lane.