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Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to 49528867

Re: How deep should a gas line be buried?

said by 49528867:

said by Msradell:

Copper tubing for underground natural gas lines? I've never seen that any place.

While copper tubing is allowed for propane, using copper tubing for a natural gas line is prohibited under NFPA 54 due to the corrosive materials commonly found in natural gas.

Wayne

I wasn't aware it was against NFPA but I know some local laws do not allow it for natural gas and I've never seen a used for that. As Nunya stated I have seen it used for propane which is complete different.


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

It was extremely common around here for customer owned gas pipes to be copper tubing. Not to be confused with utility owned pipes.

It was very common back in "the day" for the utility to install "customer owned" gas piping for outdoor uses.

Many people have gas BBQ grills and gas lights installed in their yards. Not to mention heat in detached garages / outbuildings.

Are you sure you seen it used for natural gas and not propane? Their characteristics are quite different. See the other discussion regarding NFPA 54.


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to towerdave
said by towerdave:

They only mark the line to the meter on the utility side:

While that is true, the OP can call 811 and they will come out and mark up the line before the meter, then while the locates guy is there the Op can ask him politely to mark out the customer owned and maintained line after the meter, most of the time the tech will do so even though he is not required to.

It also doesn't hurt to slip the guy a fin as a thank you for the additional work.

If that fails, renting a locator is always another way to go.

Wayne

--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

But as noted they generally won't know where the line is AFTER the meter.

That will not mater, since the pipe is conductive he can light it up and locate it.

Wayne

Hellrazor
Bah Humbug

join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA
Reviews:
·Service Electric..
reply to Steve
said by Steve:

said by Liberty:

You may discover though, if you get down off your high horse and open your mind

Oh barf. It amazes me how people admit to such astonishingly ignorant things in public. Astrology too?

If this is the real thing, how about you go collect your million bucks?

Dowsing actually does work. My grandfather used to locate new well sites for people and I am the only other person in my family who has the ability to do it.

You can scream like a little girl about it being fake. Just remember space travel was fake too. Keep your tinfoil hat on, it looks good on you.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

1 recommendation

said by Hellrazor:

I am the only other person in my family who has the ability to do it.

Then go claim your million bucks and demonstrate that the rest of us are idiots.


SandShark
Long may you run
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
kudos:3
said by Steve:

said by Hellrazor:

I am the only other person in my family who has the ability to do it.

Then go claim your million bucks and demonstrate that the rest of us are idiots.

Don't tell me you don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy!
--
Help the tornado and flooding victims


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

1 recommendation

said by SandShark:

Don't tell me you don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy!

My psychic has assured me that they exist.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·AT&T Midwest
·Time Warner Cable
reply to 49528867
said by 49528867:

while the locates guy is there the Op can ask him politely to mark out the customer owned and maintained line after the meter, most of the time the tech will do so even though he is not required to.

It also doesn't hurt to slip the guy a fin as a thank you for the additional work.

I don't know if statute or admin code addresses whether that is prohibited, but it is against their policies for good reason.

The better answer from the locator is "I'm sorry, I'd like to, but our contract with the utilities doesn't allow it. You can call or check the website for a private locator, though." That's what I was told, and it makes sense.

Whom do you suppose Uncle Bob's personal injury lawyer is going to come after, when Uncle Bob tells the lawyer that he contracted with a locator, and paid him, but the private utilities were not properly marked? The risk/reward is way out of proportion for anyone with a fully-developed understanding of the downside, especially given the documentation maintained for all locate tickets.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb

towerdave

join:2002-01-16
O Fallon, IL
reply to towerdave
I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that as shallow as I''m going to be digging, I won't hit my gas line. But I may try to locate it anyways, just to know for future reference.

TD


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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reply to towerdave
OP, you can rent a locator at Frost Electric in Collinsville. 618-345-7255. $95 / day.
You can probably hire a plumber / electrician to do it for the same or less.

I know we're a little off topic from the OP's original problem:
Copper is widely used for NATURAL GAS in this area (propane too). I repeat, natural gas. Almost every home I've seen built in the last 15 years has COPPER gas pipes. It is duly noted that most "custom" and higher quality homes use black iron.

Some municipalities are now allowing HDPE and CSST for interior gas piping in this area as well.

The Laclede guys always tell me that copper pipe always has the same set of problems. "Stick" pipes clog orifices from the residue of soldered joints. The soldered joints leak because of the thick walls and poor methods used by plumbers used to putting water pipe together. I've been on new construction jobs, literally dozens of times, where the gas company has refused to connect because the system wont hold pressure. Usually due to a bad soldered joint.

These aren't issues with roll tubing. Roll tubing is what the local gas companies (both Illinois Power and Laclede) usually buried in the ground for customer owned piping before HDPE caught on. Every house I've ever owned, the post lights, gas grills, and outbuildings were all fed from the meter by copper tubing. BTW, the tubing was run through black iron sleeves going into, and coming out of the ground. So the OP might want to check on that as well.
--
I just might be the most "licensed" S.O.B. you know.

towerdave

join:2002-01-16
O Fallon, IL
said by nunya:

OP, you can rent a locator at Frost Electric in Collinsville. 618-345-7255. $95 / day.
You can probably hire a plumber / electrician to do it for the same or less.

Nunya,

Thanks. I can talk to a local plumber about doing it, see if it's cheaper.

TD


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to ArgMeMatey
said by ArgMeMatey:

The risk/reward is way out of proportion for anyone with a fully-developed understanding of the downside, especially given the documentation maintained for all locate tickets.

One wonders since you cannot find either the code or statute if that is really true?

Than again maybe just where you live.

When we where getting ready to install a new drain field I contacted 811 and locates came out to my home in Plantation and marked off the power drop and gas line to the meter, then at my request he marked off the power to the out building (a straight line) and the 3/4 gas line to the pool heater which took a totally different course than I thought it should have and my 3M cable locator wouldn’t work on the iron pipe so his help was thoroughly appreciated.

I thanked him “very much” and we parted ways.

Keep in mind they don't use a proprietary brand of spray paint so it would be difficult if not impossible to prove who did what…

Neither of us thought about the water line but I located that with the Bobcat.

Wayne
--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to towerdave
said by towerdave:

Thanks. I can talk to a local plumber about doing it, see if it's cheaper.
TD

Even if you do hire a plumber call 811 a few days in advance and have them do a locate, as you “never know what’s below”, and if you hit something and survive you will be responsible for all damages, if they locate and you hit something they are holding the liability bag not you.

The service is free and can literally save you life.

Wayne
--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
Same with me. This past Wednesday I had "Miss Utility" come out and they marked the electrical and telco to the house, the electrical from the house to the detached garage and the electrical from the garage to my shed. Don't have gas. Free and quick service.


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
said by Jack_in_VA:

Same with me. This past Wednesday I had "Miss Utility" come out and they marked the electrical and telco to the house, the electrical from the house to the detached garage and the electrical from the garage to my shed. Don't have gas. Free and quick service.

There are rules and there is reality and I have found locates guys will locate anything they can find if asked nicely.

In the end if they prevent a cut they have done the job they where paid to do regardless of whose side of the meter the cut was on.

Wayne
--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I know we're a little off topic from the OP's original problem:
Copper is widely used for NATURAL GAS in this area (propane too). I repeat, natural gas. Almost every home I've seen built in the last 15 years has COPPER gas pipes. It is duly noted that most "custom" and higher quality homes use black iron.

NFPA-54-09 says:

5.6.2.3* Copper and Brass. Copper and brass pipe shall not be
used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of
hydrogen sulfide per 100 scf of gas (0.7 mg/100 L).

A.5.6.2.3 An average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per
100 scf of gas (0.7 mg/100 L) is equivalent to a trace as
determined by ANSI/ASTM D 2385, Method of Test for Hydrogen
Sulfide and Mercaptan Sulfur in Natural Gas (Cadmium
Sulfate Iodometric Titration Method), or ANSI/ASTM D 2420,
Method of Test for Hydrogen Sulfide in Liquefied Petroleum (LP) Gases (Lead Acetate Method).

A.5.6.3.2 See A.5.6.2.3.
Copper and brass tubing and fittings (except tin-lined copper tubing) should not be used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 scf of gas (0.7 mg/100 L).


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I know we're a little off topic from the OP's original problem:
Copper is widely used for NATURAL GAS in this area (propane too). I repeat, natural gas. Almost every home I've seen built in the last 15 years has COPPER gas pipes. It is duly noted that most "custom" and higher quality homes use black iron.

And people run zip cord in walls to feed outlets, but that doesn't make it proper or the right thing to do.

What can be done and what should be done are always two different worlds.

Wayne

--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
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reply to towerdave
Missouri PSC does not allow sale or storage of NG or LPG with hydrogen sulfide content higher than .25 grains per 100 scf of gas.

A quick google search shows that copper gas pipe is very common and widely used (legally).

Where you guys live, they must sell "sour" natural gas (higher H2S content).

Here the H2S is low or scrubbed.
--
I just might be the most "licensed" S.O.B. you know.

Bobcat79
Premium
join:2001-02-04
reply to nunya
I thought black pipe was required for strength reasons. It's a problem if a homeowner uses a copper gas pipe as a coat rack. That's less of a problem with black pipe.

My house has black pipe, but... There is copper tubing run to a gas fireplace. I don't trust it (the tubing or the fireplace) and have never turned the gas on. I had a gas company guy in the house once and he spotted the tubing and asked, "What the hell is that?" I was afraid he'd shut my gas off, so I didn't ask if it was allowed and simply said I had no intention of ever opening the valve.

My plumber, however, says it's fine to run copper gas lines.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
Plumbers generally have a vested interested in Black Iron since it's money in their pockets. Not exactly an unbiased opinion from them.

I do know Richmond and Henrico County mandate Black Iron for Natural Gas. I used to live in Chesterfield and had a propane fireplace insert piped with copper tubing. We don't have NG here but plenty of Propane and copper tubing.

Bobcat79
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Is it iron or steel?


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Plumbers generally have a vested interested in Black Iron since it's money in their pockets.

Whys that, theres nothing special about working with black pipe?

Wayne


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

Here the H2S is low or scrubbed.

While that can be true at the transmission level, do keep in mind once the gas passes through a transmission to distribution regulation ststion it is odorized using methyl mercaptan which is also corrosive to copper precluding the use of copper tubing under NFPA 54 / 5.6.2.4 .

And yes we all know copper tubing is used for natural gas just like non-approved wiring methods are used for electricity, but the correct method is black iron pipe made up with plumbers dope (no Teflon tape), approved/listed plastic tubing and fittings or stainless steel.

Nice try though.

Wayne

--
It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to 49528867
said by 49528867:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Plumbers generally have a vested interested in Black Iron since it's money in their pockets.

Whys that, theres nothing special about working with black pipe?

Wayne

You and I know that but the average Joe?


nunya
LXI 483
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to 49528867
I'm not afraid to see what I see. I know that copper gas pipe is the "norm" here. It may not be where you live. I can't imagine multiple jurisdictions turning a blind eye if this were a blatant violation. Especially the hard-asses in St. Louis. NG is serious business.

The gas sold here is sweet dry gas, and the methanethiol is negligible. In fact, it poses more of a hazard to ferrous metals -
»encyclopedia.airliquide.com/Ency···GasID=42

Nice try though.

Personally, I wouldn't have it due to what I've been told by numerous gas co employees. Not to mention the numerous leaks I've seen on "brand new" installations. Plus I have a threading machine.
--
I just might be the most "licensed" S.O.B. you know.

Hellrazor
Bah Humbug

join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA
Reviews:
·Service Electric..
reply to Steve
said by Steve:

said by Hellrazor:

I am the only other person in my family who has the ability to do it.

Then go claim your million bucks and demonstrate that the rest of us are idiots.

I don't think I need to go claim a million bucks to prove you are an idiot.

urmom
Premium
join:2010-10-18
Pittsburg, KS
said by Hellrazor:

said by Steve:

said by Hellrazor:

I am the only other person in my family who has the ability to do it.

Then go claim your million bucks and demonstrate that the rest of us are idiots.

I don't think I need to go claim a million bucks to prove you are an idiot.

maybe not, but who couldn't use an extra million dollars? if you're right, you'd be rich. if not, you'd be embarrassed.

Seems to me like you'd *want* to prove everyone wrong. Especially if there is a lot of money to be gained by doing it.

So what's the problem?

towerdave

join:2002-01-16
O Fallon, IL
reply to towerdave
Just to update. Spoke to my neighbor who was around when the garage and gas line were built and installed. He wasn't sure where the line went, but did know that where I'm working there used to be a huge tree/roots, so he was sure it wasn't there.

I told him what I was working on, and said I was going to rent a tiller. He instead wheeled his over and tilled up the ground for me. After he was done, I moved the tilled up dirt to the other side of the spot, and we are just about level. I have some smoothing out to do and a bit more dirt to move to get it as close as possible, and have to clean up the edges, and the pool will go back up tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions/comments/concerns.

TD