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FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Hard to catch violators? So don't try

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.
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Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by FFH:

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.

If you really consider these people criminals for watching movies and listening to music, your moral compass is malfunctioning, go get a new one.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by Kamus:

said by FFH:

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.

If you really consider these people criminals for watching movies and listening to music, your moral compass is malfunctioning, go get a new one.

+ 1

Well put.

The government has lost all credibility and people are starting to see what the DMCA for what it is. Nothing but a law bought and paid for by Corporate lobbyists.

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by Kamus:

said by FFH:

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.

If you really consider these people criminals for watching movies and listening to music, your moral compass is malfunctioning, go get a new one.

If they aren't paying for it they are thieves and criminals.
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DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

2 edits

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by FFH:

said by Kamus:

said by FFH:

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.

If you really consider these people criminals for watching movies and listening to music, your moral compass is malfunctioning, go get a new one.

If they aren't paying for it they are thieves and criminals.

Corporations have raped Health Care, Banking, and Government.

I figure my Justin Timberlake makes us even.
Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX
said by FFH:

If they aren't paying for it they are thieves and criminals.

Where are the stolen material goods?
I hope they give them their stuff back... oh wait.
NetKrazy

join:2007-11-29
Littleton, CO

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

I thought gas was to expensive... I filled my tank and drove off... by the time someone called me on it I had already gone through my tank. Where are the material goods.....

Oh wait...

I also stopped into a grocery store and shoplifted a candy bar. But I think because of healthcare, banking, and government. I'm well within doing what's fair.. (Sorry DR, Generally I find your points fair, this one I couldn't get behind.)

The problem is that until there is a mandated standard on what constitutes DRM protection of content this problem won't go away. The annoyance while in part placed on the copyright holders should also be placed on the entire industry. DRM that's MS specific, Apple specific, amazon specific is the true root of the problem. All these companies are creating competing products they want to keep their customers, hold onto their customers they are also to blame for this mess.

The true solution is a DRM solution not managed by the distribution mediums but managed by the RIAA itself embedded into the device and the content. That would allow content from distributor A to be seamlessly moved to a device sponsored by B.

Ofcourse this causes the problem of what makes apple better than amazon. Amazon better than $other source. Help spread the blame and not just focus to one area.

(Yes I'm well aware that several companies offer DRM free content, personally I think this is *NOT* the answer)

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by NetKrazy:

I thought gas was to expensive... I filled my tank and drove off... by the time someone called me on it I had already gone through my tank. Where are the material goods.....

Oh wait...

Oh wait indeed.

A better example would be consumers can replicate gas without cost.

Would they still buy it?

Not in a million years.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Gas is not copyrighted, so analogy fail.

You make me think of Star Trek. "Computer! Tea! Orange Pekoe!" And it appears. Nice if that were true!

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

I was referring to the "theft" reference, irrespective of copyright issues.

So basic reading fail?
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

1 recommendation

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Well I guess you are right in some technical legal sense. You would not be charged under theft statutes, you would be charged under copyright statutes.
But the ordinary meaning of the word "theft" does actually apply I think. When you pirate, you are acquiring something that you legally should have paid for, without paying for it. That's the ordinary meaning of the word "theft".

I tend to use the word "pirate" because that's well understood in our circles and does not carry the other connotations of "theft" which you rightly pointed out.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by MyDogHsFleas:

When you pirate, you are acquiring something that you legally should have paid for, without paying for it. That's the ordinary meaning of the word "theft".

I can't accept the idea that making a copy of something is equivalent to stealing it.

It's just too far apart.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

1 recommendation

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by DataRiker:

said by MyDogHsFleas:

When you pirate, you are acquiring something that you legally should have paid for, without paying for it. That's the ordinary meaning of the word "theft".

I can't accept the idea that making a copy of something is equivalent to stealing it. It's just too far apart.

Then what is it? Are you just quibbling over a word or do you simply believe that the copyright statutes are null and void for some reason?

If you were selling your own creation, say software, music, art, or a book, that you worked hard on, and was your source of income, and someone took its digital form and started distributing it over the Internet, you'd be sitting there with no income. Would you not feel like that person was stealing your livelihood from you? Copyright is your only legal protection from that, if your income depends on selling your creations.

And if someone said to you, "I am only making copies. I took nothing from you." would you agree with them?

Or do you think that selling copyrighted creations should not be allowed as a way to make money?

I don't get it. Have you actually thought this through? Do you have zero empathy for people who are in this line of work?

I mean, this is basic stuff. There is no country that does not have copyright as a basic concept in their system. Are you some kind of anarchist, you just want to bring the whole thing down?

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

4 edits

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by MyDogHsFleas:

If you were selling your own creation, say software, music, art, or a book, that you worked hard on, and was your source of income, and someone took its digital form and started distributing it over the Internet, you'd be sitting there with no income. Would you not feel like that person was stealing your livelihood from you? Copyright is your only legal protection from that, if your income depends on selling your creations.

Most industries have natural scarcity. Physical labor, Medicine, Food, Water, Housing, ect.

Nobody is going to bring the "whole system down"

if your "labor" can be reproduced without cost, then it has no scarcity.

Very few industries outside of Art have no scarcity. Thus your argument is not warranted, or even in the realm of possibility.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

I must admit I was stunned by this response so it took me a couple of days to decide to answer. You are essentially denying that any labor that does not produce tangible physical goods, physical objects, is worthless.

By doing this you are essentially taking society back to the Pre digital age. If you make a digital creation you can't own it and sell it. Or, you are asserting that it's good to create digitally, but people should do it for free, because, why? I don't know. This is an extremely utopian view.

People don't actually work like this. Maybe if we were all members of a Borg like collective it would work. I'm at a loss as to how to absorb this.

"imagine no possessions, it's easy if you try". Is a lie I think. It's very hard to imagine that.

This is even further out than Stallman who asserts this only for software. And only as an alternative, not a replacement, for the proprietary software industry. Stallman actually DEPENDS on the copyright law to enforce the GPL.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

3 edits

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Not worthless at all. Actually Intellectual property is the key to most innovations. Some would argue discovery and innovation work faster without copyrights at all.

Scarcity is not only physical goods. Take for example your advice from your doctor, or online gaming.

Again, your doom and gloom scenario is just not possible. The vast majority of industries have scarcity.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

So created art does not have scarcity, but a doctor's advice does? That's ridiculous. How does a sidewalk caricurist make money? He sells a scarce good that you can't just create yourself, but you want, so you pay for it. Same with a band making music or a developer creating software.

But, you say, I can copy that creation with little effort. So it's not really scarce. Wrong. It was scarce before you copied it. Therefore the copyright laws. To stop this devaluation by free copying, or at least make it not be the norm.

Look, if you think that copyright is not beneficial, well that's you opinion. But don't make some bogus argument about digital copying making some natural difference here. It's just another way to copy.

Before computers copyright laws existed to stop people from, eg, reprinting others' books without paying them, or performing songwriters songs. No difference now. computers are not some magic realm where the rules dont apply.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

4 edits

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Like your example, Performers / artists create scarcity by performing. You can't pirate the experience of a live performance.

IP protection is 100% non existent in China ( trust me I've been there ), so by your argument there would be no artists right?

False. They make money primarily by live appearances. I would also dare to say its a much more popular profession there as well.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

You have really got to separate these two thoughts. You are just bouncing between one and the other in alternate posts, so you don't have to actually respond to my questions and points.

Thought 1: If we didn't have copyright laws things would be better. There'd be more innovation, flowers would bloom, and we'd all "live as one". (sorry for the sarcasm)

Thought 2: There is some natural rule that if I can copy something, it has no scarcity, therefore it's not a bad thing to copy it. And maybe it really has no value.

I am really trying to stick to arguing your thought 2 which I think has no debatable foundation. It's fundamentally ridiculous in my opinion, because if applied in its fullest form, would essentially take society back to the bartering stone age type or organization.

For example: money. Hey I can copy money without much of an effort. Does that mean money is worthless and I have to back to trading bags of salt for donkeys or whatever?

Your thought 1 is an entirely different discussion, which I suspect you are cloaking in your strange adherence to thought 2.

Sort it out and let's have an actual discussion!

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by MyDogHsFleas:

I am really trying to stick to arguing your thought 2 which I think has no debatable foundation. It's fundamentally ridiculous in my opinion, because if applied in its fullest form, would essentially take society back to the bartering stone age type or organization.

Not possible, scarcity prevents that.

Even digital items can have scarcity with a little innovation. Look at the gaming industry. They've nailed it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Which is essentially done through DRM like mechanisms. Is that what you are advocating for other digital content? Are you saying if it's not digitally protected it is not scarce? Honestly I'm getting tired of trying to nail the DataRiker jello to the wall here. What do you actually advocate for content that is currently protected by copyright? Stop making me ask questions and come out with it.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

LOL no.

What I was referring to was interactive online content, which is not accessible to pirates.

The core parts of the game locked by DRM are universally defeated across the board, but there is no way to get the interactive online universe by piracy.

Look at Steam, Blizzard, ect..

Gaming evolved into, what most feel is a more advanced setup. It had to, DRM on computers is impossible essentially.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by DataRiker:

LOL no.

Oh I see. You were talking about online environments, I thought you were talking about virtual goods which can be traded.

You are a man of few words, don't know why, you seem to assume everyone (or me, at least) knows what your frame of reference is.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
said by Kamus:

said by FFH:

I see way too many here subscribe to the theory: if malefactors are hard to catch, then don't bother. And people wonder why criminality is rampant in the US. So crime is OK if it is hard to catch the criminals.

If you really consider these people criminals for watching movies and listening to music, your moral compass is malfunctioning, go get a new one.

You could be saying one of two things so let me respond to both.

1). This is a minor crime compared to everything else out there.

Well, sure, but the content owners don't care about that, they are just trying to protect their content. It's mainly a civil matter not criminal. By and large the police and FBI aren't out there hunting down Joe Blow who's downloading stuff from Pirate Bay. They will focus on the Pirate Bays of the world who are openly and massively violating the copyright law.

2). This should not be a crime at all and we are morally justified to disobey the copyright law.

Well, OK, but don't do the crime if you can't do the time. And, I don't see this being a big civil rights issue anytime soon.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
Exactly. This seems a good compromise with lots of ways for a false positive to be mitigated.

To say "you can't identify all the criminals, and you might accuse some innocent people, therefore this is a bad thing to do" is simply being tendentious. This is being said because you don't want to say "this is a bad thing to do because people SHOULD be able to pirate copyrighted material without interference over the Internet".

Prove me wrong. Propose something that is as effective as this as disincenting people from piracy.
modifiy

join:2001-04-13
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

It's hard to prove you wrong when this plan was just put in place. Same can be said the other way that there is no proof this will do anything to stop piracy, but chances are it wont. This is wack a mole at best. Pirates and p2p users will change their methods like they have in the past to get around this.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by modifiy:

It's hard to prove you wrong when this plan was just put in place. Same can be said the other way that there is no proof this will do anything to stop piracy, but chances are it wont. This is wack a mole at best. Pirates and p2p users will change their methods like they have in the past to get around this.

It's really an opinion, nothing to "prove" here. As you say time will tell. My point really is that it's not a question of absolute "will it stop piracy or not" but a matter of degree.

What I see is the riaa/mpaa crowd taking action when piracy becomes rampant or brazen. They will take action - call it whack-a-mole if you like - to damp it down. For example they killed Napster and Limewire and are trying to kill Pirate Bay. This is another attempt to damp down "mainstream piracy".

Smart and motivated pirates will always find a new clever way. The content owners are really just trying to lop off the high points of the piracy demand curve.

IMO they should be doing more on satisfying the supply side of the piracy business along with trying to slow down the demand side. I think Apple as the primary mover along with Google, Amazon, etc. are leading that, not the content owners. This is not good for the content owners.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000
I would like to say one more thing before I hit the MCAT books for the afternoon.

Scarcity is the engine of any economy. You can't eliminate the scarcity of a product and expect its IP "rights" to be upheld.

It essentially amounts to owning an "idea" or "process" for an arbitrary amount of time.

That has never worked throughout history, and never will. Information is free by its very intangible nature.

IP has been steadily encroaching on Academic Research for quite some time and its a scary thought. Monsanto has IP rights on soy bean genetics, essentially they have patented "life" of an organism and have actively stopped universities from studying seeds.

This is the ridiculous nature of IP.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

said by DataRiker:

I would like to say one more thing before I hit the MCAT books for the afternoon.

Scarcity is the engine of any economy. You can't eliminate the scarcity of a product and expect its IP "rights" to be upheld.

It essentially amounts to owning an "idea" or "process" for an arbitrary amount of time.

That has never worked throughout history, and never will. Information is free by its very intangible nature.

IP has been steadily encroaching on Academic Research for quite some time and its a scary thought. Monsanto has IP rights on soy bean genetics, essentially they have patented "life" of an organism and have actively stopped universities from studying seeds.

This is the ridiculous nature of IP.

Ah, finally! You speak a position! You are an "information wants to be free" guy. Like water wants to flow downhill.

So this is actually a real debatable question. Thanks for getting there. I thought we never would.

I would offer the observation that it's actually been going the other way in the last 5 years or so, with the big exception of groups that intentionally produce open and free content (e.g. WikiPedia, Open Source projects), as corporations and individuals realize digital content is an asset that (a) they invested a lot in and (b) is worth protecting.

I would agree with you in principle on the need for patent reform. Obviously we'd need to see the specifics of the reform. But patents are becoming a drag on innovation.

Copyright is a whole different animal from patents.

Well, listen... your MCAT reference makes me realize that maybe you are so taciturn because you are just a busy person. Good luck on the test and on your applications! I just had a daughter go through that process and graduate, she's now in her first month of residency. I know how hard it is.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 edit

Re: Hard to catch violators? So don't try

Thanks, good luck to you as well.