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DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

Email rejected, 554 policy reasons...

Recently I started getting the following error when (auto) forwarding email from one sbcglobal.net email sub account (mysource@sbcglobal.net) to another of my sub accounts (mytarget@sbcglobal.net):

The original message was received at Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:15:28 -0500
from smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.84.175]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

(reason: 554 5.7.5 (AU01) Message not accepted for policy reasons. See »postmaster.yahoo.com/err ··· -28.html)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mx1.sbc.mail.yahoo.com.:
DATA
--- 554 5.7.5 (AU01) Message not accepted for policy reasons. See »postmaster.yahoo.com/err ··· -28.html 554 5.0.0 Service unavailable


The email(s) being rejected came from facebook through my domain forwarder (GoDaddy.com) using one of my assigned email addresses, in this case (myemail4@example.com), for my domain example.com. I have read the reference URLs and contacted ATT technical support but neither provided a viable solution to the problem. I am led to believe I need to sign my email when I do the forward with a DKIM key, but have found no documentation on how to do that using AT&Ts SMTP servers. As mentioned, this is a recent problem as in the past I had been forwarding these emails with no problem. Right now, many other emails are successfully forwarded every day, just not email from facebookmail.com and Netflix.com. I can attach more information on this error if interested. Anybody know what I need to do to fix this problem?

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

My guess is that the email from the Facebook and Netflix sources need the DKIM signature (though not having email from either, I can't say that they don't have the required DKIM signatures). Then you are throwing GoDaddy in the mix (they may, or may not add DKIM signatures; again, I have no accounts through GoDaddy, so no way to test for DKIM signatures).

The DKIM signature is added by the source server (not client), so you have to be in control of the server to add a DKIM signature.

Unfortunately, thanks to spammers, forwarding becomes iffy because an MX server may be configured to see evidence of forwarding (in the trace headers) as a sign of spam.

I don't currently have a forwarding account which I can use to simulate your mail paths. But this is not a simple problem to solve, and I am not sure I have the time to play with it.
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

3 edits

DSLBevo

Premium Member

said by NormanS:

The DKIM signature is added by the source server (not client), so you have to be in control of the server to add a DKIM signature.

By this do you mean that me, as a client to sbcglobal's email servers, there is nothing I can do to prevent the email from being rejected? A home grown program on my PC does read the email from the server, apply the target email address and then forward the email to that address. So could apply a DKIM signature if I had one and knew how. But if there is no way to do that using SBC's servers, then that's off the table. I have attached all the information I could collect about the rejected message. It does show a DKIM key, but it is foreign to me.

Thanks
Gary

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

I am speaking of "client" in the technical sense of email communication. "Clients" are applications which access "servers" for sending and fetching email.

A DKIM key has to be obtained from Yahoo!, and applied by the sending SMTP server. If you ran your own SMTP mail server, you could, in theory, obtain a DKIM key from Yahoo!. I have looked into it (I do run my own SMTP server), but the process is a bit convoluted.

The problem is, the originating servers must apply the DKIM key to the outbound email. I've not played with email forwarding; but, when you forward email, you have a chain of "originating" SMTP servers. I don't know how that affects the issue of a DKIM signature.

It is making my head hurt just trying to figure out DKIM and email forwarding. And I am trying to set up a forward from one 'pacbell.net' account to another (for testing purposes), and that is taking forever to accomplish.

Perhaps you could explain what you are trying to accomplish by forwarding from one 'sbcglobal.net' account to another, somebody can offer a less convoluted method to perform the task.

wayjac
MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy

wayjac to DSLBevo

MVM

to DSLBevo
In the past I have had mail from a sbcglobal.net email account forwarded to another sbcglobal.net email account, I was required to "verify" the receiving email address

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to DSLBevo

MVM

to DSLBevo
wayjac See Profile has raised a good point. In order to forward from the 'mysource@pacbell.net' account to the 'mytarget@pacbell.net' account, I had to set up forwarding in the web pages of the 'mysource@pacbell.net' account. That is the "convoluted" part of my test; and my verification emails were trashed! So I wasted a bit of time looking for them.

Did you go through that process? Setting up "POP&Forwarding" in the 'mysource@sbcglobal.net' account?

I am not going through two forwarders (it was painful enough going through just one), but here are the edited headers for a successful internal forward ('pacbell.net' to 'pacbell.net'):
Received: from 207.115.36.35  (EHLO nlpi163.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.35)
  by mta1046.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:53:41 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [98.139.44.145]
Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.145])
by nlpi163.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with SMTP id p6FIrdZm015504
for <mytarget@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 13:53:41 -0500
Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 18:53:39 -0000
Received: from [98.139.44.91] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 18:53:39 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2011 18:53:39 -0000
X-Yahoo-Forwarded: from mysource@pacbell.net to mytarget@pacbell.net
Received: from 207.115.36.151  (EHLO nlpi137.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.151)
  by mta1024.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:53:39 -0700
Received: from mail-pz0-f69.google.com (mail-pz0-f69.google.com [209.85.210.69])
by nlpi137.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6FIrbas019796
for <mysource@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 13:53:38 -0500
Received: by pzk3 with SMTP id 3so1854082pzk.4
        for <mysource@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.37.71 with SMTP id w7mr265191pbj.39.1310756017545;
        Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
 

Two things that I can think of:

• Possible problems with 'secureserver.net'; they have been know to get listed for spam from time to time.
• Too many forwards; looks suspect to the receiving server.
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

said by NormanS:

wayjac See Profile has raised a good point.

My thanks to both of you for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to pass on your thoughts on this problem. Yes, both the mysource and mytarget addresses are the primary sbcglobal.net account email addresses and both have been verified. The issue is not that I have not been authorized to forward, I do so successfully many times each day. Except for facebookmail and netflix, which only recently started to be rejected with the 554 errors.

Perhaps you could explain what you are trying to accomplish by forwarding from one 'sbcglobal.net' account to another...

Many years ago, when the spammers were just getting off the ground, I purchased the "example.com" domain name to better control email sent to me and my family members. Example.com email addresses are issued individually to merchants, forums, etc. Each address is stored in a local dB and identifies, among other things, entity issued to, which family member issued the address and whether or not the person issuing the address still considers it valid. All example.com emails are forwarded by GoDaddy to mysource@sbcglobal.net, where a program I developed reads the email and matches it to the dB to determine whether it should be forwarded to the member or deleted (because it has been marked invalid in the dB). The mytarget address is mine where just my email is sent. There also is a mytarget2... for other family members, for their forwarded email. I agree, as you put it, it is "convoluted". But it is also highly effective. When I first get spam email I not only know who was responsible, but I can quickly and easily delete their future email without ever seeing it again or affecting any other email. If I change my email service provider, I can easily point GoDaddy to my new provider without ever changing any of the addresses issued to the source. However, if more email starts being rejected and if I cannot find a solution to successfully forward rejected email, I am afraid this approach will have a short future.

If you ran your own SMTP mail server, you could, in theory, obtain a DKIM key from Yahoo!. I have looked into it (I do run my own SMTP server), but the process is a bit convoluted.

If I am understanding correctly, if I ran my on SMTP server, I could have all family members mail boxes on that server and eliminate sbcglobal email entirely. In that case GoDaddy would (have to) forward to mysource on my server and I would then forward to member mailboxes. In that case do you see any reason I would need to use DKIM?

If interested in technical insight on how I am forwarding email check out:
»www.example-code.com/vb/ ··· mail.asp
Additionally if DKIM issues such as creating the DKIM DNS record could be resolved then this addition to my code might be viable:
»www.example-code.com/vb/ ··· ture.asp

Thanks
Gary

wayjac
MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy

wayjac to DSLBevo

MVM

to DSLBevo
This is in your first post
said by DSLBevo:

Recently I started getting the following error when (auto) forwarding email from one sbcglobal.net email sub account (mysource@sbcglobal.net) to another of my sub accounts (mytarget@sbcglobal.net

Followed by this in another post
said by DSLBevo:

both the mysource and mytarget addresses are the primary sbcglobal.net account email addresses

I don't think the account type (primary or sub) matters, but I forwarded from a sub account to a primary account it was simple and quick to setup and it worked
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

Yeah, sorry, I was inconsistent with my use of Primary. The mysource and mytarget are both sbcglobal sub accounts to my primary sbcglobal account. They are however the verified login email address for each sub account. Forwarding from mysource to mytarget works fine, except for emails from two places.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to DSLBevo

MVM

to DSLBevo
Okay, some lines stand out in the headers you posted:
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256;
 d=facebookmail.com; s=s1024-2011-q2;
 c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt;
 i=@facebookmail.com; t=1310159636;
 h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
 bh=liVSnGJA3cBBGFdmI2sHPDk6z/Sg3MGkg8AgBYoIQ30=;
 b=Palg4iZGyCSISXW6jt1QHLdz1/b1nEr6wqTtul0r9CkUOd1fmSsdP1oN0rGkg4rF
 OG0eCjQ134UdMyQIM4UiDkKKr5WnFdtRKL2R9SDdUP6IGfwR9laNoavWrWpDGEtP
 L4c4czijRIPHrLqNMSMvAA0JMxNRQ+E/0uS0B/0NR9Q=;
 
Based on the Yahoo! Policy link, Facebook is explicitly requiring that the receiving (Yahoo!) server find a Facebook DKIM signature/key, or the email is likely forged.
X-YahooFilteredBulk: 173.201.192.167
 
Yahoo! suspects 'p3plsmtp13-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net' for being a spam source.
Received: from smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
 [98.138.84.175]) by nlpi161.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with
 ESMTP id p68LFR1k011350 for <mytarget@sbcglobal.net>;
 Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:15:28 -0500
Received: from MYMACHINE.WORKGROUP.local (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP
 id p68LFQiu061017 for <mytarget@sbcglobal.net>;
 Fri, 8 Jul 2011 14:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mysource@sbcglobal.net)
 
There is no DKIM signature here.

Basically, you are forwarding email which has can not be vetted by 'nlpi161.prodigy.net' as having been signed by Facebook. So 'nlpi161.prodigy.net', following policy, is rejecting the email because Facebook says it must have a DKIM signature, but your client is not signing with a Facebook DKIM key (as well it shouldn't).

Remember, in a chain of forwards, the last server to receive a submitted message is only going to check the source of the message submission agent (your forwarding software, source on your ATTIS connection) against the DKIM key (supplied by Facebook, and not allowing your agent, or Internet connection, to be an authorized source for Facebook). For all 'nlpi161.prodigy.net' knows, that DKIM signature, earlier in the headers, could be a spoof attempt. 'Nlpi161.prodigy.net' is not talking directly to the Facebook server, but to another agent for another entity.

The trail is too long, and the last MTA can't verify back to the Facebook source, so it is being rejected per Facebook's configuration of their DKIM key.

Basically, your attempt at controlling spam is in conflict with Yahoo! and Facebook's attempt at controlling spam, and your agent, and source IP address (your AT&T assigned IPA) look wrong to 'nlpi161.prodigy.net'.

I don't see an easy way to fix this because you would need to get Facebook, and/or Yahoo! to change their policies to suit your mail path; which is a special case, and not a normal path.
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

Thanks for the explanation. Greatly appreciated. I will study your points to see if I can gain a better understanding of the process.

I don't see an easy way to fix this because you would need to get Facebook, and/or Yahoo! to change their policies to suit your mail path; which is a special case, and not a normal path.

So that is what all email relays do? That's what GoDaddy had to do to get it to me?

Gary

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

2 edits

NormanS

MVM

Email is comprised of "message submission" (client uploads email to a server) and "mail transfer" (server to server transmission of email). In the earl days of email, running a message submission server as an open relay was considered proper Internet etiquette; until spammer discovered they could freely use these open relays to obfuscate the source (and prevent their own providers from cutting them off for violation of TOS).

Today, servers try to verify sources; for message submission servers, to restrict access only to authorized users, for MX servers, to restrict access to trusted MTAs. Two systems were developed to attempt to mitigate forgeries:

• "Sender Policy Framework" (open source)
• "Domain Keys"

MSN Hotmail tried to co-opt SPF with their own enhancements, called, "Sender ID". Besides "Domain Keys", an enhanced version called, "DKIM" ("Domain Keys Identified Mail") was released. The object of each was to identify forgeries; but, in both cases, a published DNS record (SPF, or DKIM) pretty much restricts the authorized source IP address for a domain to that identified in the DNS record. If I set up SPF for my domain, and point to IP address www.xxx.yyy.zzz as the only authorized source of email for my domain, forwarding will break the protocol; because the forwarding server IP address is seen as the source by the MX server, and it will not be authorized, unless expressly configured as authorized in the DNS record for the domain.

This is a good thing if I want to make it difficult for spammers to forge my domain as the sender in their email. This is a bad thing if I want to forward email from 'mydomain.example' to 'pacbell.net' through 'secureserver.net'.

If you revisit the Yahoo! link about their sending policy, and go to that page to request special consideration, you might even get this fixed. It will require thoroughly understanding the mail path from 'facebook.com' through 'yourdomain.example' to 'sbcglobal.net', and the intervening mail hosts (for Facebook, GoDaddy, your domain, SBC Global (for AT&T) and Yahoo!

Just a fairly simple example of how forwarding can break the protocols designed to mitigate spammer forgery of domains:
X-Apparently-To: {%mytarget%}@pacbell.net via 68.142.199.158; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:10 -0700
Received-SPF: fail (domain of aosake.net does not designate 98.139.44.154 as permitted sender)
X-Originating-IP: [98.139.44.154]
Received: from 207.115.36.52  (EHLO nlpi180.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.52)
  by mta1043.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:09 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [98.139.44.154]
Received: from nm27.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm27.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.154])
by nlpi180.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with SMTP id p6G1x8Wc014041
for <{%mytargetr%}@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:59:09 -0500
Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm27.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 01:59:08 -0000
Received: from [98.139.44.71] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 01:59:08 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 01:59:08 -0000
X-Yahoo-Forwarded: from {%mysource%}@pacbell.net to {%mytargetr%}@pacbell.net
Received-SPF: pass (domain of aosake.net designates 64.142.19.5 as permitted sender)
X-Originating-IP: [64.142.19.5]
Received: from 207.115.20.119  (EHLO flpd109.prodigy.net) (207.115.20.119)
  by mta1010.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:07 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.142.19.5]
Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5])
by flpd109.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6G1x6wu031014
for <{%mysource%}@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:07 -0700
Received: from aosake.net (173-228-18-196.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [173.228.18.196])
(authenticated bits=0)
by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p6G1x5en011642
for <{%mysource%}@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:06 -0700
Received: from Spooler by aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72) ID MO000002;
  15 Jul 2011 18:59:07 -0700
Received: from spooler by aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72); 15 Jul 2011 18:59:00 -0700
Received: from kozue.aosake.net (192.168.102.34) by reki.aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72) with ESMTP ID MG000001;
   15 Jul 2011 18:58:55 -0700
From: "NormanS" <{%User%}@aosake.net>
Organization: Polka Dot Ranch
To: {%mysource%}@pacbell.net
 
These are the headers from email which was not forwarded as deeply as yours; not having a source beyond the server for my local domain. I would draw your attention to the top two lines of the headers. My target 'pacbell.net' account, and the SPF flag for the "originating" server. The failed IP address is the output server for the source 'pacbell.net' account; it is a Yahoo! IP address, and I have not configured it in my DNS records as a "permitted sender" for my domain. Then there are these:
X-Apparently-To: {%mysource%}@pacbell.net via 67.195.15.74; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:13:38 -0700
Received-SPF: pass (domain of aosake.net designates 64.142.16.245 as permitted sender)
X-Originating-IP: [64.142.16.245]
Received: from 207.115.36.167  (EHLO nlpi153.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.167)
  by mta1053.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:13:37 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.142.16.245]
Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245])
by nlpi153.prodigy.net (8.14.4 IN/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6G2DaoA017909
for <{%mysource%}@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:13:37 -0500
Received: from aosake.net (173-228-18-196.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [173.228.18.196])
(authenticated bits=0)
by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p6G2DYcc010316
for <{%mysource%}@pacbell.net>; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:13:35 -0700
Received: from Spooler by aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72) ID MO000004;
  15 Jul 2011 19:13:36 -0700
Received: from spooler by aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72); 15 Jul 2011 19:13:19 -0700
Received: from kozue.aosake.net (192.168.102.34) by reki.aosake.net (Mercury/32 v4.72) with ESMTP ID MG000003;
   15 Jul 2011 19:13:09 -0700
From: "NormanS" <{%User%}@aosake.net>
Organization: Polka Dot Ranch
To: {%mysource%}@pacbell.net
 
Now look at the top two lines. I disabled forwarding in the "source" account. So the MX server is not getting the email from a forwarder, but directly from my mailhost, configured as "permitted" in my DNS SPF record. So this email gets an SPF "Pass", instead of an SPF "Fail".

Now that I think about it, you could quite easily set up an SPF record for your GoDaddy hosted domain, and set up an SPF record in DNS which permits the Yahoo! output server for your domain. Probably even set up a DKIM signature. I can help with the SPF record, but know nothing of the DKIM signature. Since you do control the domain for one of the email addresses, you can control the DNS record, and configure it to allow the forwarding Yahoo! DNS server to be a "permitted" server.
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

said by NormanS:

Now that I think about it, you could quite easily set up an SPF record for your GoDaddy hosted domain, and set up an SPF record in DNS which permits the Yahoo! output server for your domain.

Ok, if you don't mind I would like your guidance on how/where to set up the SPF records. It seems a good place to start, and then if the DKIM signature is needed I will at least have a better understanding of the required DNS records. Let me know how you wish to proceed please.

Thanks
Gary

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

The official site for SPF is here:

»www.openspf.org/Introduction

They have a tutorial, and a Wizard for creation. Your SPF policy will be for your domain. Whomever provides your domain DNS services ("A Record", "MX Record", etc.) should have a way to create a, "TXT Record". You place the SPF string in your "TXT Record" field with your DNS provider. Testing can be done on sites specifically designed for the purpose; but a real world test is best. You can send direct from your domain SMTP server to any of your 'sbcglobal.net' accounts, and check your headers. You will be looking for these lines as proof of success:
X-Apparently-To: {%User%}@sbcglobal.net via {%Yahoo!_IP_Address%}; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:13:38 -0700
Received-SPF: pass (domain of {%Your_Domain%} designates {%Your_Domain_Output_Server_IP_Address%} as permitted sender)
 
An actual example for mine:
X-Apparently-To: {%User%}@pacbell.net via 67.195.15.74; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:13:38 -0700
Received-SPF: pass (domain of aosake.net designates 64.142.16.245 as permitted sender)
 
This will probably require at least three tests of submission through your domain SMTP message submission server, and checking your email headers in the target account to identify the actual IP address(es) of that server.

For your forwards, you can check which Yahoo! SMTP servers are handling the forwards, and add them, as well.

And, again, you might get some traction by following the Yahoo! Policy link, and filling out their forms. Assuming you can get an understanding of your mail path through the forwarding servers, Yahoo! might create rules which will allow the forwards through (but, I suspect, only if their rules would be unique to your mail paths. If the rules are too wide, and would allow other user mail paths, instead of blocking, they would probably decline to create an exception.}
DSLBevo
Premium Member
join:2006-01-20
North Richland Hills, TX

DSLBevo

Premium Member

Thanks Norman, greatly appreciated.

Gary