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Sanek

join:2006-08-10
Kanata, ON

Rogers Upstream Bonding

Some people have been saying that Rogers cannot provide upsteam bonding because certain frequencies are taken by some channels on the analog cable, but I was skeptical, so I decided to check the standards for both DOCSIS and North American Analog Cable Television Frequencies.

DOCSIS spec uses 5MHz-42MHz for its upstream frequency range. Rogers is using QAM64 for the upstream channels, which means that each channel is 3.2 MHz wide, which means there is enough room for say 11 upstream channels.

Unless Rogers has any Subband channels, I don't see how anything would be interfering with the analog cable. Lowband channels start at 55.25MHz, which is after the DOCSIS upstream frequency range.

I know I have not seen any Subband channels, so unless I'm missing something, I don't see whats stopping Rogers here.

Granted that I'm not an expert on this, so sorry if I screwed something up



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

Rogers currently uses QAM16 for upstream. I did hear somewhere that they will be upgrading to QAM64.

Whether it translates to upstream channel bonding and faster upload speeds being offered, who knows.
--
BUCK FELL. From UBB to AVP. Same wolf in sheep's clothing.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·WIND Mobile
reply to Sanek

Although the spec does permit 5-42 MHz, this range is splattered with RF noise from shortwave transmitters of many sorts and RF generated by things like dimmers, fluorescent lamps ... all manner of electical interference. This is why when cable modems fail, they usually fail because of signal levels on the upstream path rather than the downstream The selected range is normally just above 30 MHz being one of the "quieter" parts of the spectrum.

Rogers currently uses 16 QAM on its upstream path to keep noise problems to a minimum. To use higher modulation standards would mean it would be even more sensitive to noise.

Some MSOs with relatively new installations of neighbourhood cable plant can increase to higher QAM depth, but Rogers is a very mixed bag when it comes to cable plant. Some areas are comparatively new, and some are very old. Most MSOs are looking to move to the frequencies above 50MHz because they are quieter once released from TV use.


Sanek

join:2006-08-10
Kanata, ON
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

Rogers currently uses QAM16 for upstream. I did hear somewhere that they will be upgrading to QAM64.

Whether it translates to upstream channel bonding and faster upload speeds being offered, who knows.

Are you sure? I'm using an SB6121 modem on TSI at the moment and it's reporting QAM64 2.560 Msym/sec as far as I can tell...


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Sanek:

Are you sure? I'm using an SB6121 modem on TSI at the moment and it's reporting QAM64 2.560 Msym/sec as far as I can tell...

Ah, perhaps you're on a test segment for 64QAM... I'm on TSI as well on a SB6120 and it's showing this:

Upstream Modulation
[3] QPSK
[5] 16QAM
--
BUCK FELL. From UBB to AVP. Same wolf in sheep's clothing.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

I would be surprised if most of Rogers network would support 64 QAM on the upstream ... just too much ingress.



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

First report of upstream bonding, TSI customer on SB6120 in Thornhill.

»[Cable] Upstream Bonding
--
BUCK FELL. From UBB to AVP. Same wolf in sheep's clothing.


Sanek

join:2006-08-10
Kanata, ON
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

said by Sanek:

Are you sure? I'm using an SB6121 modem on TSI at the moment and it's reporting QAM64 2.560 Msym/sec as far as I can tell...

Ah, perhaps you're on a test segment for 64QAM... I'm on TSI as well on a SB6120 and it's showing this:

Upstream Modulation
[3] QPSK
[5] 16QAM

»img171.imageshack.us/img171/4690···6121.png

FLFLD POI (Kanata)


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Cool. Who knows what Rogers is working on.

BTW, excellent stats.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to Sanek

Interesting ... not on my cable segment! :-(


the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

Click for full size
I have upload bonding enabled here too.


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON

No bonding here in High Park yet.

You guys with bonding on - you seeing any improvement in upload speeds?


Sanek

join:2006-08-10
Kanata, ON

said by SimplePanda:

No bonding here in High Park yet.

You guys with bonding on - you seeing any improvement in upload speeds?

I believe there would not be any upload speed improvements until Rogers pushes down new profiles. This is profile-limited. This should help with congestion though, in case someone had a slower upload speed (although thats usually not the case with 1Mbit upload).


anon8888

@rogers.com

upload speeds are going to be increasing VERY soon, watch your bill notices:)


nhs ice

join:2006-08-16
Toronto, ON

Do I need the new cisco modem for channel bonding?? I have not exchange the smc modem. Yesterday I look at the cable status through smc, it still shows only one channel which it is channel 1.


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

said by nhs ice:

Do I need the new cisco modem for channel bonding?? I have not exchange the smc modem. Yesterday I look at the cable status through smc, it still shows only one channel which it is channel 1.

Rogers pushed firmware to SB6120s last week. This is probably the reason why they did it. We're test subjects. When they're ready for everyone, I'm sure they'll enable it on the crappy SMCs.

static416

join:2007-01-26
Toronto, ON
reply to Sanek

So, wait, if Rogers increases upload speeds significantly, say to 25/10 or even 25/5, won't that kind of destroy their rationale for throttling the upload on P2P?

I think it's pretty obvious that Rogers isn't going to suddenly volunteer to remove throttling. So how are they going to continue to justify it when the upload speeds are no longer so constrained?
--
www.LaconicReply.com - Tech/photography/rant blog



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

They'll increase it to probably double but that leaves it in the same situation it was in with 1 channel.


wysiwyg1972

join:2006-11-05
Toronto, ON
reply to static416

There's more to the internet than just P2P. Faster upload speeds benefit people who upload files to sites like Flikr or all the cloud computing where files need to be in synch. There's also improvements for those who like to RDP to their desktop. I personally benefit from my 7 meg upload (on Fibe 25) for my Slingbox, as anything over 3 mbps provides a clear HD stream. I dumped Rogers because they couldn't offer the 7 meg upload, but would jump back once they did (even at 5 meg). I liked them and usually offer better retention deals compared to Bell where I pay full price!


static416

join:2007-01-26
Toronto, ON

said by wysiwyg1972:

There's more to the internet than just P2P.

Oh I completely agree. I incrementally backup my 350GB photo library to an offsite location using VPN and a filesync program. I also back it up to a cloud service, and both would benefit from faster upload. Watch movies while I travel on my 3G iPad that are streamed on the fly from my home computer. All these would benefit from a better upload.

Thing is bittorrent and P2P are useful for a lot of purposes other than just the obvious (piracy). Wuala lets you get credits for cloud storage in exchange for contributing storage via P2P. Lots of indie music and movies are legitimately distributed via P2P. »sites.google.com/site/sxswtorrent/
»vodo.net/

But right now, because P2P is effectively killed on Rogers, they basically preventing a huge portion of the population from taking advantage of the benefits of distributed file sharing. And until P2P is protected on all ISPs, legitimate companies are going to be hesitant to rely on it for their business.
--
www.LaconicReply.com - Tech/photography/rant blog


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

said by static416:

said by wysiwyg1972:

There's more to the internet than just P2P.

Oh I completely agree. I incrementally backup my 350GB photo library to an offsite location using VPN and a filesync program. I also back it up to a cloud service, and both would benefit from faster upload. Watch movies while I travel on my 3G iPad that are streamed on the fly from my home computer. All these would benefit from a better upload.

Thing is bittorrent and P2P are useful for a lot of purposes other than just the obvious (piracy). Wuala lets you get credits for cloud storage in exchange for contributing storage via P2P. Lots of indie music and movies are legitimately distributed via P2P. »sites.google.com/site/sxswtorrent/
»vodo.net/

But right now, because P2P is effectively killed on Rogers, they basically preventing a huge portion of the population from taking advantage of the benefits of distributed file sharing. And until P2P is protected on all ISPs, legitimate companies are going to be hesitant to rely on it for their business.

I disagree with this just a touch.

Rogers doesn't block P2P. They block specific protocols that happen to implement P2P. Indeed, P2P itself isn't a protocol or technology, just the name we give to protocols and technology that works a certain way.

There are many ways to implement distributed storage / exchange systems that Rogers doesn't block harm with their throttling and there are a lot of commercial entities who rely on P2P tech.

Skype being a major one that I can think of...

That said, Rogers upload speeds are pretty much a joke now. 2Mbps on a 50 (100Mbps bursting connection)? Just laughable. With TekSavvy offering 7Mbps uploads now Rogers has a very, very short amount of time to get my Ultimate connection working faster than 2Mbps upload before i jump ship.


Napalm

@rogers.com
reply to static416

said by static416:

So, wait, if Rogers increases upload speeds significantly, say to 25/10 or even 25/5, won't that kind of destroy their rationale for throttling the upload on P2P?

Well when you're "downloading" something it's not only the download going on but also your computer will continuously send acknowledgements and other traffic management packets upstream to the server it downloads from.

Now if you increase a lot the "downstream" bandwidth without touching the upstream one, you can get the situation where you can't practically attain the max download speed because your computer cannot keep up with sending acknowledgements fast enough.

So you have to increase the "upstream" too to a certain down/up ratio that will allow you to reach the enhanced downstream bandwidth potential.

This has nothing to do with p2p, it's valid for most kinds of traffic.

Nap.


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

Also, Rogers hates P2P I think less for the bandwidth involved but more for the absurdly high number of connections that a Torrent client creates. As I recall DOCSIS CMTS gear pre-3.0 had a lot of trouble with rapid/high volume connection opening/closing.

Also, purely from a peering perspective having more upload traffic is better for Rogers as peering generally involves ratio trading.


Zachary1

join:2011-02-23
Oshawa, ON
reply to Sanek

Currently have 2 channels for my upstream (Both lights on my modem are blue) I live in oshawa btw :P


nhs ice

join:2006-08-16
Toronto, ON
reply to Sanek

I am here at Toronto with intersection of Sumach & Gerrard st. I am still seeing only one channel on the upstream. Hey Zachary, may I ask is there any improvement on your upload speed, like faster speed?


Sanek

join:2006-08-10
Kanata, ON

said by nhs ice:

I am here at Toronto with intersection of Sumach & Gerrard st. I am still seeing only one channel on the upstream. Hey Zachary, may I ask is there any improvement on your upload speed, like faster speed?

Should not be any improvement - this is limited by the profile. If he could not achieve the promised max before, he might be able to now though.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by Sanek:

said by nhs ice:

I am here at Toronto with intersection of Sumach & Gerrard st. I am still seeing only one channel on the upstream. Hey Zachary, may I ask is there any improvement on your upload speed, like faster speed?

Should not be any improvement - this is limited by the profile. If he could not achieve the promised max before, he might be able to now though.

Can you still run a program like docsdiag?...used to be able to back in the day to see what the profiles are actually set at and all the other goodies...I haven't had cable in about 6 years now though so I'm out of the loop when it comes to that.

But you won't see a faster upload, more like a balance to the current upload if there is congestion in the area.

Bonding is good but...you will hit a theoretical max on cable...


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Rogers blocks SNMP access from customer side... So you cant run any diag tools that rely on SNMP.
--
BUCK FELL. From UBB to AVP. Same wolf in sheep's clothing.



Frankgg

@cgitmsmdc.ca

I just got this e-mail from Rogers

Dear XXXXX,

RE: Your Rogers account XXX-XXXXXXXXXXX

We're pleased to inform you that we're upgrading your Rogers Hi-Speed Internet upload speed at absolutely no additional charge so you can send emails and share photos 700% faster than before!

Best of all, you don't have to do a thing - your Rogers Hi-Speed Extreme Plus Package will be automatically upgraded on August 26, 2011 to a faster upload speed of up to 7Mbps1 (currently up to 1Mbps).

All other aspects of your Rogers service(s) remain the same.

Enjoy your service upgrade and thank you for choosing Rogers for your high speed internet needs.

HOW MUCH ARE YOU USING?
Check & track your internet usage at rogers.com/keepingpace




Contact Us | Privacy Policy | rogers.com

1 Speeds may vary with internet traffic, server gateway/router, computer (quality, location in the home, software and applications installed), home wiring, home network or other factors. Also see the Acceptable Use Policy at rogers.com/keepingpace. Modem set-up: the system is configured to maximum modem capabilities within Rogers own network.

Rogers One Mount Pleasant Road - 10 P Toronto ON M4Y 2Y5



SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 edit

CONFIRMED!

- You may need the Cisco device to take advantage of faster upload speeds. I assume the 4 channel capable SMC is also possible but the tech I spoke to was under the impression that "only the new device would work which is why we're rolling it out now". Grain of salt here.

- Extreme plus is going to 7Mbps. Ultimate is going to 10Mbps.

- This will all happen on the 26th of August.

All of the numbers and info above was provided by the tech directly with no prompting so this looks pretty official.

Happy day!