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aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

1 recommendation

aurgathor to tschmidt

Member

to tschmidt

Re: Electrical problems in double-wide trailer

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said by tschmidt:

One more slightly off topic post. We built our house in 1982 and lived in a mobile home for a couple of years prior to that. We purchased a circa 1969 mobile home used in 1980 and moved it to our property. As an aside I would recommend doing that for anyone planning to build their own home using sweat equity.

While I'm not looking for one, I regularly see *free* mobile homes on craigslist, or in some other publications, the only gotcha is that they need to be moved. But it's hard to beat the price.


On multiple occasions the subs we hired wanted to know why we were spending all that money to build a house when we had a perfectly good trailer to live in.



Back to the topic, the unique construction method and connectors used in many (most? all?) mobile homes can present some serious challenge. I had lost power to my bedroom once, and took me about 3 weeks to find the root cause (pictured) and fix it. I wasn't rushing things, and I had to order some test equipment -- that's why it took so long. I'm not sure what an average MH owner would've done, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be a cheap fix if an electrician were to be called.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

1 recommendation

nunya

MVM

It would have have been a cheap fix if you called a competent electrician. I would have put a tracker on it and found it pretty quick. Probably in less than 1/2 hour. A lot of it is having the right tools and knowing how to use them.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to aurgathor

Premium Member

to aurgathor
»/r0/do ··· humb.jpg

And the NEC allows that? If so any pretense of the safety and well being of people just evaporated. Wonder if it's UL listed? If so how did it ever pass. (maybe a pile of money under the table?)

aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

aurgathor to nunya

Member

to nunya

Remove this! :)
  

switch-1
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switch-2
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outlet-1
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outlet-2
said by nunya:

It would have have been a cheap fix if you called a competent electrician. I would have put a tracker on it and found it pretty quick. Probably in less than 1/2 hour. A lot of it is having the right tools and knowing how to use them.

Finding the problem under 1/2 hour -- most certainly. I think it took me like 15 - 20 minutes once I got the toner, and I was a first time user. But fixing, as you should know, can be a bit laborious in MHs, and may present some unexpected challenges, like on the 1st picture.

What I ended up doing is gluing some wood to the wood panels from the inside, and attach the boxes to them. No idea if that's code compliant or not, but definitely much stronger than what I had before. (just a plain cutout in a 3/16" wood panel) That took -- mostly because I had to wait for the glue to dry -- a couple of days, and I kinda doubt that any electrician would do this.

BTW, only the outlet was bad, but since I also had access to a switch behind the same panel, it was a no brainer to replace that one, too.
aurgathor

aurgathor to Jack_in_VA

Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

And the NEC allows that? If so any pretense of the safety and well being of people just evaporated. Wonder if it's UL listed? If so how did it ever pass. (maybe a pile of money under the table?)

I'm not familiar with NEC, UL, or any other code related issue, but I have every reason to believe that they were legal at the time of the construction.
If I pull out another one, or find one I didn't throw out yet, I'll check to see if there's an UL number on it somewhere.
Zach
Premium Member
join:2006-11-26
Llano, CA

1 edit

Zach to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

»/r0/do ··· humb.jpg

And the NEC allows that? If so any pretense of the safety and well being of people just evaporated. Wonder if it's UL listed? If so how did it ever pass. (maybe a pile of money under the table?)

I'd say the MH industry makes 'contributions' to the powers that be in order to get by with the shit they pull. As for devices with integral enclosures, they are acceptable for use with NM-B as per 300.15(E)

Not sure what's worse, aurgathor's cluster of a 'box-less' outlet with three wires (the original one...the repaired version looks much better) or the fact those crappy connectors in nunya's link can be concealed in a re-work job. All of it together will keep fire departments, insurance adjusters and electricians in work for years to come.
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned) to Jack_in_VA

Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

And the NEC allows that? If so any pretense of the safety and well being of people just evaporated. Wonder if it's UL listed? If so how did it ever pass. (maybe a pile of money under the table?)

Those buggers like backstab outlets are not only U.L. listed they where offered by a number of "reputable" manufacurers and where installed in thousands of homes down here from the early 80's until the late 90’s.







P&S has acquired Slater and thankfully that product is no longer in the catalog.

I will say though they are job security for electricians and the complaint is always the same, a room or part of a room goes dead usually where a high amperage device is used on a regular basis or the outlet is so used it begins to pull out of the wall twisting the Romex (another U.L. listed and NEC compliant product that should be banned from the face of the earth). You find the open pull the outlet or switch open it up and show the homeowner the burnt up connections inside, the home owner freaks out and quickly wants all of the devices replaced ASAP.

The job is “usually” simple if the installer left enough slack in the existing Romex or you can pop a couple of Romex staples out of the studs.

Just pull some slack out of the Romex jam in an old work box and rewire with a standard outlet or switch, the only real buggers are where the Romex is banjo string tight or comes in from above and below then things can get a little tricky.

Wayne

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

Cho Baka

MVM

said by 49528867:

I will say though they are job security for electricians and the complaint is always the same, a room or part of a room goes dead usually where a high amperage device is used on a regular basis or the outlet is so used it begins to pull out of the wall twisting the Romex (another U.L. listed and NEC compliant product that should be banned from the face of the earth).

Romex should be banned, or those funny joiner thingos?
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned)

Member

said by Cho Baka:

Romex should be banned, or those funny joiner thingos?

Both.

Wayne

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

Premium Member

The connectors, sure, but Romex? What's wrong with that? I don't think many properly installed NM cables burst into flame.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to 49528867

MVM

to 49528867
I would love to see romex banned too, but as long as it's legal and "all the other kids" are doing it, I have to keep doing it too. It would be difficult to win any bids with armored VS. romex.

There are some locations here and there where romex is not allowed by local revisions. Some don't even allow MC or AC. Everything has to be hard piped or in FMC.

I'd also like to see PVC / composite boxes go away.

If you took plastic boxes and romex out of the picture, I'd be willing to bet it would generate a noticeable decrease in the number of house fires in the US.

brian
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mission Viejo, CA

brian

Premium Member

what's the problem with romex?
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned) to garys_2k

Member

to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:

I don't think many properly installed NM cables burst into flame.

No I doubt NM nor it tarry predecessor would just burst into flame, but that 2” brad that gets put through it while Mr. DIY is securing his new paneling could make for some really neat arcs.

To put it bluntly NM is crap, a shortcut, the easy way out, a duffers mark and he who uses it without putting up a good fight is well,,, um, sorry I can’t say those words around here.

Wayne
49528867

49528867 (banned) to nunya

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to nunya
said by nunya:

I would love to see romex banned too, but as long as it's legal and "all the other kids" are doing it, I have to keep doing it too. It would be difficult to win any bids with armored VS. romex.

It sucks doesn’t it bottom line it’s risk based purchasing and you either play the game or starve.

There are some locations here and there where romex is not allowed by local revisions. Some don't even allow MC or AC. Everything has to be hard piped or in FMC.

Under the SFBC Romex can be used in SFR and MFR up to two floors, it is banned from any commercial use with the exception of detached, listed, storage sheds.

In commercial and residential, above slab, in dry locations, MC is allowed, EMT is allowed and west of the FEC tracks EMT is allowed on exterior walls exposed to rain, east of the tracks exterior exposed or buried conduit must be PVC or a form of rigid.

FWIW AC is not allowed at all anywhere.

Wayne

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

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tschmidt to 49528867

MVM

to 49528867
said by 49528867:

No I doubt NM nor it tarry predecessor would just burst into flame, but that 2” brad that gets put through it while Mr. DIY is securing his new paneling could make for some really neat arcs.

I don't disagree NMC is more vulnerable to mechanical damage then other forms of wiring but I wonder whether or not it is statictically significant in either fire or shock hazard. I say that as someone that managed to drive a finishing nail through 1/2" copper water pipe when installing trim in our house.

I assume (you what what they say about assume) the majority of fires are due to splices not the cable itself.

We live in a timber framed house with stressed skin exterior walls/roof. It would have been extremely difficult to use any other wiring method.

Be interesting to see shock and fire statics for multiple wiring types.

/tom
fixed typos

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

2 recommendations

nunya to brian

MVM

to brian
It's the soft "underbelly" of wiring. All too often, it gets damaged during installation and *not* replaced. I've seen it oodles of times. Rather than re-run 25' of wire, some jack-off will leave it.
NM can be damaged easily during installation by inexperienced hands with "heavy hammers". I can't tell you how many times I've had to track a staple that some donkey has pounded through the sheath. Normally about 2 days after the home warranty expires.

After installation, it's still more subject to damage than any other wiring method (accepting K&T, which isn't allowed in new work).

Unfortunately, NM also has a fuck-with-me "vibe" about it. Everybody thinks they are Mr. Handy these days. People love to hack into NM cable willy-nilly as the need a splice. A little tape, some wire nuts, a piece of clothes hanger, and a little aluminum foil and Mr. Handy has his new ceiling fan "installed".

brian
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mission Viejo, CA

brian

Premium Member

said by nunya:

A little tape, some wire nuts, a piece of clothes hanger, and a little aluminum foil and Mr. Handy has his new ceiling fan "installed".

I think that's how my electrician said he was going to do the fans we're having installed next week.

Thanks for the explanation, nunya See Profile (and others).
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to 49528867

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to 49528867
said by 49528867:

said by garys_2k:

I don't think many properly installed NM cables burst into flame.

No I doubt NM nor it tarry predecessor would just burst into flame, but that 2” brad that gets put through it while Mr. DIY is securing his new paneling could make for some really neat arcs.

To put it bluntly NM is crap, a shortcut, the easy way out, a duffers mark and he who uses it without putting up a good fight is well,,, um, sorry I can’t say those words around here.

Wayne

A house getting its siding replaced. The romex in the walls is going to look afterwards like the house was hit with the minigun. Romex will just smoke and smell when its damaged. Romex, very rarely, will instantly explode with arcing and flames. It will very slowly smolder without ever tripping the breaker. Carbon and oxides are conductive you know. Romex can be pierced (future nails) or crunched by wood (poor install), chewed by rodents (uncle's detached garage burned down, mice made a home in uncapped PVC buried conduit with feeder from house, detached garage has crawl space and wood floor for a portion of it) or roasted at 16 amps for 20 years by a heavily used circuit with an air conditioner (12 amps) and 2 refrigerators (IDK, 2 amps each?). Breakers dont trip at exactly 15 or 20 instantly. It can take 20 minutes for a breaker to trip at 2 amps above face. Google "trip curve" to learn more. It can take years, until an earthquake, or an aggressive door slam, or foundation settling, until romex damage starts to short.

A metal covering makes sure that the breaker will trip and also will deprive the short of air and wick away heat. When the breaker trips, the site of the short will cool down and the potential fire is dead. Rats can't chew it. And nails will push the armored cable, not cut into it.
patcat88

patcat88 to 49528867

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to 49528867
said by 49528867:

In commercial and residential, above slab, in dry locations, MC is allowed, EMT is allowed and west of the FEC tracks EMT is allowed on exterior walls exposed to rain, east of the tracks exterior exposed or buried conduit must be PVC or a form of rigid.

FWIW AC is not allowed at all anywhere.

Wayne

No AC cable? Flordia govt doesn't trust the bonding wire and metal jacket from turning to rust from all the humidity? The outdoor EMT rule is a little bit harder for me to understand to justification of.
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

1 recommendation

49528867 (banned)

Member

said by patcat88:

No AC cable? Flordia govt doesn't trust the bonding wire and metal jacket from turning to rust from all the humidity? The outdoor EMT rule is a little bit harder for me to understand to justification of.

AC cable is allowed under the Florida Uniform Building Code but is forbidden under the more stringent South Florida Building Code which has been adopted by the counties Palm, Broward, Dade and Monroe.

EMT is forbidden outdoors east of the FEC tracks by the SFBC due to the prevailing easterly breezes pushing salt air in off the ocean which makes quick work of turning EMT into ERT (Electrical Rusted-out Tubing).

Wayne