dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
uniqs
9
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful to John97

Premium Member

to John97

Re: Why don't GFCI outlets fail completely

said by John97:

The GFI on the exterior of the house died (wouldn't reset). I removed the redundant GFI's in the shed and replaced them with regular outlets.

Some photos of catastrophic failure of outdoor GFI (?) outlets: »forums.mikeholt.com/show ··· t=133031

I wondered why electricians do not use circuit breakers incorporating GFCI function for all bathroom/garage/shed/outdoor outlets. I will ask for that as I plan to upgrade my panel.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

said by lutful:

I wondered why electricians do not use circuit breakers incorporating GFCI function for all bathroom/garage/shed/outdoor outlets. I will ask for that as I plan to upgrade my panel.

Cost. $30-40 for a GFCI breaker vs. $8-10 for a GFCI outlet. That's big box store pricing. I don't know what a supply house pricing would be, but I can't imagine that the pricing wouldn't be at least proportionally similar.

Portmonkey
My watch stopped
Premium Member
join:2004-04-09
Southern IL

Portmonkey

Premium Member

Depending on how many outlets, it's sometimes cheaper to buy the breakers like in a basement that tends to flood on occasion or a large kitchen with several outlets near the counter-tops, especially when you get a discount for being a regular customer that usually makes a large purchase. I don't know much about this stuff (slowly learning) and just volunteer to help sometimes on the big jobs, but often see the GFCI breakers getting installed.
Speedy Petey
join:2008-01-19

Speedy Petey

Member

said by Portmonkey:

Depending on how many outlets, it's sometimes cheaper to buy the breakers like in a basement that tends to flood on occasion or a large kitchen with several outlets near the counter-tops, especially when you get a discount for being a regular customer that usually makes a large purchase.

Nope. Still MUCH more expensive.

You only need ONE $15 GFI receptacle to do the SAME job as a $50 GFI breaker. 99.9% of the time the CUSTOMER is not willing to pay the extra cost. I do NOT get why this would be blamed on the electrician.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to lutful

Premium Member

to lutful
said by lutful:

said by John97:

The GFI on the exterior of the house died (wouldn't reset). I removed the redundant GFI's in the shed and replaced them with regular outlets.

Some photos of catastrophic failure of outdoor GFI (?) outlets: »forums.mikeholt.com/show ··· t=133031

I wondered why electricians do not use circuit breakers incorporating GFCI function for all bathroom/garage/shed/outdoor outlets. I will ask for that as I plan to upgrade my panel.

After looking at some of the pictures I wonder "Do you feel safer" being forced to install these devices? Another fallacy of the NEC.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to Portmonkey

Member

to Portmonkey
said by Portmonkey:

Depending on how many outlets, it's sometimes cheaper to buy the breakers like in a basement that tends to flood on occasion or a large kitchen with several outlets near the counter-tops, especially when you get a discount for being a regular customer that usually makes a large purchase. I don't know much about this stuff (slowly learning) and just volunteer to help sometimes on the big jobs, but often see the GFCI breakers getting installed.

I don't know why a GFCI breaker would be cheaper when you can chain regular outlets to the "load" terminals and have protection on them.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to Jack_in_VA

MVM

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

After looking at some of the pictures I wonder "Do you feel safer" being forced to install these devices? Another fallacy of the NEC.

Reading the explanation of what caused the failure, I don't see how the GFCI is particularly at fault. There is obvious signs of severe corrosion on the terminals and it was used in either an unprotected box and/or a marine environment. It wasn't designed to function in such an environment so how exactly is it suppose to protect in one?

But to answer your question, yes, I do feel safer. Yes they may fail in a manner that they don't provide protection. But they can also do their job and trip protecting you. If they weren't there at all, it would be guaranteed that they would not provide protection.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

To bet you life on a device that may or may not work is foolish. I know how to make myself safe working on electrical but the general population does not. False assumptions are dangerous.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

1 recommendation

fifty nine

Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

To bet you life on a device that may or may not work is foolish. I know how to make myself safe working on electrical but the general population does not. False assumptions are dangerous.

I don't bet my life on GFCI outlets. However they are an extra layer of protection. Hypothetical example - you're in the bathtub taking a hot bath. There's a light fixture above it. Earthquake rumbles through and your house is damaged to the point where the fixture falls into the tub with a live wire. You've taken precautions but sh*t happened. The GFCI is there as a fallback so you don't get killed.

It's like having airbags, seatbelts and other safety features in cars. You may be the safest driver in the world but some drunk or idiot on the cellphone could come plowing down the wrong way and hit you head on.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by fifty nine:

I don't bet my life on GFCI outlets. However they are an extra layer of protection. Hypothetical example - you're in the bathtub taking a hot bath. There's a light fixture above it. Earthquake rumbles through and your house is damaged to the point where the fixture falls into the tub with a live wire. You've taken precautions but sh*t happened. The GFCI is there as a fallback so you don't get killed.

Fixture falls into tub....Light fixtures generally are not on GFCI protected circuits but let's assume it was. GFCI defective and doesn't trip....results = disaster. Anyone who puts their life in a device that is known to have problems is foolish.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to Jack_in_VA

MVM

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

To bet you life on a device that may or may not work is foolish. I know how to make myself safe working on electrical but the general population does not. False assumptions are dangerous.

No one is betting their life. A GFCI isn't designed to give anyone a false assumption that they can recklessly use electrical devices in wet or unsafe conditions anymore then seatbelts and airbags give a driver a license to be reckless. They are there as a precaution but not as a end all be all failsafe.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to Jack_in_VA

Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Fixture falls into tub....Light fixtures generally are not on GFCI protected circuits but let's assume it was.

Doesn't have to be a light, it could be a plugged in hairdryer or electric shaver on the countertop that fell into the tub.

GFCI defective and doesn't trip....results = disaster. Anyone who puts their life in a device that is known to have problems is foolish.

That's assuming the GFCI is defective. If it's not there in the first place there is no chance of it saving your life. If it's there and working (which is why you test it frequently) then it has a chance of being another layer of protection.

It's like wearing steel toed boots. You don't drop hammers on your foot but just in case one does drop on your foot it won't crush your toes.

It's also like using a transfer switch. You can be careful and backfeed your panel via the dryer outlet in the event of a power outage because we all know you're always careful and remember to turn off the main breaker first... at least until you forget when you're tired and it's dark. A transfer switch eliminates that possibility. Yes the switch can be defective and backfeed anyway but so what, it's a remote possibility.
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned) to Jack_in_VA

Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

After looking at some of the pictures I wonder "Do you feel safer" being forced to install these devices? Another fallacy of the NEC.

If you liked GFCI’s being pushed by the code, your going to love the “smart outlet” aka electrical fault circuit interrupter (EFCI) that is being proposed as a new code requirement.

It is described as;

"The EFCI installed in an electrical outlet will automatically configure its trip level to match whatever electrical device is plugged into its receptacle. When an electrical device plug is installed, the EFCI reads the safe limit from a RightPlug® tag embedded in the plug. RightPlug uses wireless transponder communication defined by ISO 14443B to transfer electrical device power ratings from the device plug to the EFCI. The tag read range is designed to be less than 1 cm (about 3/8”). The following picture shows a tag molded into an electrical plug (translucent computer-generated view - below)."

“An EFCI outlet continuously looks for a tag within its read range on each receptacle. When a tag is placed within its read range, an EFCI will read the hold current level from the tag and set a trip level above the hold level. For example, if it reads a Level 8 hold current, it will pass 4 Amps and trip on over-current conditions. If the tag is removed from the read range, the EFCI returns to a maximum 15 Amp trip level for a 15 Amp outlet or 20 Amps for a 20 Amp outlet (default). When another device tag comes within its read range, the EFCI will adopt a new trip level associated with that hold current.”

»www.2d2c.com/efci.php
»www.rightplug.org/

Wayne

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

OMG

I note from their website that safety is not even mentioned but "Smart Energy" sure is. The amount of "control" these smart energy advocates want is simply alarming. They not only will have the ability to monitor and control our overall usage "smart meters" but will have the ability to monitor each individual usage connected to a receptacle etc.

KEY OBJECTIVES

Maintain, expand and distribute the RightPlug standard.
Develop and maintain standard compliance procedures.
Manage licensing of the RightPlug trademark(s).
Promote adoption of the RightPlug standard worldwide.
Provide internet-based product authentication services.

SMART ENERGY

Smart Grid, Smart Meters and Smart Appliances are all playing a part in helping us to conserve energy and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Unfortunately, the cost of "smart" prevents it's application in lower cost products that make up the majority of electrical devices.

RightPlug digital encoding, in conjunction with RightPlug compatible Smart Outlets, enables "not-so-smart" electrical devices to interact with the smart grid with minimal extra cost in the appliance. Increasing the number of devices that can interact with Smart Grid technologies drastically increases the efficacy of demand response and cost reduction efforts.
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned)

Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

OMG

I note from their website that safety is not even mentioned but "Smart Energy" sure is. The amount of "control" these smart energy advocates want is simply alarming.

Not to mention the cost, a $4.99 plug at Home Depot once wised up will run say $24.99 and a 50 foot "smart" extension cord maybe what $75.

Wayne