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Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to Grumpy4

Member

to Grumpy4

Re: Cost for a new 150 gallon propane tank.

If I was installing a propane powered generator I would probably install a General Electric/Briggs and Stratton unit. They have a higher surge rating than most other manufactures and offer a more sophisticated load management system. They also provide a 5 Year Warranty on a 20Kw generator which is rated 28Kw surge. The latest GE Symphony II load management system can prioritize up to ten individual loads. It uses RF data transmission through the home electrical system to control modules for load management, therefore not requiring individual wires to the managed devices. This would be a great benefit because it would reduce installation costs.

Regarding Geothermal Heat Pumps here in Florida. In areas where the water table is near the surface, some homeowners install water to air heat pumps thereby avoiding the cost of installing an underground heat exchanger loop. The homeowner has two wells drilled. A low head pump is required to pump water from the supply well to the heat pump the other well is used to inject the water back into the aquifer. The injection well is normally connected to an irrigation pump so the water can be used for irrigation.

The 20 Kw propane fueled generator I considered, uses about 1.9 Gallons per hour at 50% load. The 30 Kw diesel generator I considered uses about 0.8 Gallons per hour at 50% load. If off road diesel fuel cost $3.25 per gallon, a diesel fueled generator would cost about $2.60 per hour to operate at half load. If propane fuel cost $5.00 per gallon, a propane fueled generator would cost about $9.50 per hour to operate at half load or 3.65 times as much as a diesel fueled generator to operate. In an extended emergency situation, at half load, it would cost $6,840.00 to operate the propane fueled generator for 30 days versus $1,872.00 to operate the diesel fueled generator for 30 days.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to cdru

Member

to cdru
said by cdru:

said by fifty nine:

I think it's a bit more than 20k factoring in the drilling for the loop (if needed) and any ductwork needed.

Depends on the location, type of loop, depth, ground type, etc. Anywhere between $20k-$40+ for a standard house can be expected.

The last geothermal I heard about around here had the loop buried in a pond. I wish we could do that.

We have to do a vertical loop because we would have to cut trees to do a horizontal loop.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to Mr Matt

MVM

to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

Water Heater 4Kw. (Power company prohibits quick recovery water heaters which can use around 6.5Kw.)
Cook Top all burners on high 7.6Kw.
Convection Oven 3.4Kw.
Dryer 5.6Kw.
42,000 BTU Heat Pump (1) 6Kw. (Power company requires AC installer to install hardware to limit starting current.)
30,000 BTU Heat Pump (2) 4.8Kw. (Power company requires AC installer to install hardware to limit starting current.)
Maximum demand 37.4Kw plus refrigerator and lighting load.

Switching the cook top, dryer and water heater to propane or natural gas would reduce the maximum demand on the generator by 17.2Kw. After converting the three appliances to gas the maximum demand decreases to 20.2Kw.

Your heat pump watts are most likely the maximum continuous current (MCC), not rated load amps (RLA). Divide those by roughly 1.5 to figure out the RLA. A soft start kit would also bring the locked rotor amps (LRA) to less then twice the RLA.

If you are running on backup, just plan your living around energy consumption. Unless the hurricane comes through the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, are you REALLY going to have all 4 burners on high and using the convection oven? Plan meals that use 2 burners, or a burner and an oven if not just a single heat source.

Don't use the dryer at the same time you're cooking. Use the dryer at night when the heat pumps aren't working as much (at least in the summer).

37.4 kW is 155 amps, more then what the typical home draws on a usual basis, let alone if they are cautious with their energy usage during an outage.
scooper
join:2000-07-11
Kansas City, KS
·Google Fiber

scooper to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
If you're living after a hurricane comes through - you really need to think about what is really "essential" and what is "nice to have".

Essential - refridgeration and food prep. Well (for water if that's how you get it). Some lights / power for misc. some means of heating house in winter, fans otherwise.

Nice to have - electric hotwater heater. Laundry (after a week - if you see the storm coming - you should have everything clean before the storm hits)

In a survival situation - I'd worry about essentials only, with maybe the Nice's on a "one or 2 -at a time basis.
scooper

scooper to pende_tim

Member

to pende_tim
said by pende_tim:

We have a community propane system here installed through a 30 year sweet hart deal between the developer and Sharp Energy and come winter... ouch.

So - do they meter each individual house ?

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

said by scooper:

said by pende_tim:

We have a community propane system here installed through a 30 year sweet hart deal between the developer and Sharp Energy and come winter... ouch.

So - do they meter each individual house ?

That's pretty much how it works.

iknow
@optonline.net

iknow to Mr Matt

Anon

to Mr Matt
if Diesel is impossible, it might be possible to get a generator that runs on LNG. some cars run on that now, so there MAY be suppliers in your area for refilling. i think that would be cheaper than Propane.
rjgogo
join:2003-10-22

rjgogo to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
last price for propane for me in the spring was around$2.35 a gallon The highest I recall was about $3.35 so I don't know where you are getting that $5 number.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to cdru

Member

to cdru
cdru: I agree on your observations. Here is the actual power requirements for each AC.

First Floor 42,000 BTU @ 240 Volts: Air Handler: Fan Motor 4.3A Heat Strip 4.8Kw, Condenser: Fan motor 1.4A, Compressor 17.9 RA, 104 LRA. Total Amps Cooling 23.6A or 5,664 Watts.

Second Floor 30,000 BTU @ 240 Volts: Air Handler: Fan Motor 4.3A Heat Strip 4.8Kw, Condenser: Fan motor 0.9A Compressor 13.5 RA, 73 LRA. Total Amps Cooling 18.7A or 4,488 Watts.

The most important question is how to calculate the maximum starting power required by the 42,000 BTU AC. I was looking at one portable generator that is rated at 8Kw running and 10Kw starting watts, another was rated at 8Kw running and 12 Kw starting watts.

Both AC Units include two protective features: The thermostat and condenser both have 5 Minute timers that run concurrently to allow head pressure to bleed off before restarting.

I agree with scooper regarding the nice to have items unfortunately due to medical issues it is recommended that I maintain a temperature below 74 degrees on the first floor. I have an emergency 12,000 BTU Portable AC that will maintain the master bedroom at an acceptable temperature in the event that the central AC fails. I have considered using the portable in the event of an emergency and purchasing a smaller portable generator.

The purpose of a load management system is to provide whole house emergency power with a smaller generator. Loads are prioritized when the system is installed. For example the first floor AC might be top priority with the water heater second and the second floor AC third. I agree that certain appliances can be prioritized by the user, in order to prevent overloading the generator even with load management. While cooking the water heater and second floor AC can be switched off. While doing the laundry the stove, oven and second floor AC can be switched off.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to rjgogo

Member

to rjgogo
said by rjgogo:

last price for propane for me in the spring was around$2.35 a gallon The highest I recall was about $3.35 so I don't know where you are getting that $5 number.

Propane companies charge more for smaller deliveries and some will try to rob you blind even on large deliveries and hope you don't notice.

If you use propane for cooking mostly you'll pay more.

iknow
@optonline.net

iknow to iknow

Anon

to iknow
said by iknow :

if Diesel is impossible, it might be possible to get a generator that runs on LNG. some cars run on that now, so there MAY be suppliers in your area for refilling. i think that would be cheaper than Propane.

a 2010 list of LNG stations in florida. »www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc ··· p/FL/CNG
iknow

iknow to Mr Matt

Anon

to Mr Matt
i found many places in florida allow diesel generators, an example. »www.cityftmyers.com/Depa ··· yId=3096

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to rjgogo

Premium Member

to rjgogo
said by rjgogo:

last price for propane for me in the spring was around$2.35 a gallon The highest I recall was about $3.35 so I don't know where you are getting that $5 number.

Here if you own your own 500 gal tank it's between $2.50 and $3.50 depending on time of year. We have 3 local suppliers. Right now for a 100 gal tank it's $4.35.
rjgogo
join:2003-10-22

rjgogo

Member

It is their tank. They also ran the plumbing for my generator for cost of supplies. about $60 or so.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to rjgogo

Member

to rjgogo
I spoke to two bulk propane dealers and they both quoted a price range of from $3.75 to $6.00 a gallon depending my annual usage. They apparently are factoring in the cost of the propane, the cost of their facilities and the labor cost to deliver fuel. I am sure if I was purchasing 100 Gallons a month I would pay around $3.75 per gallon.

The petroleum dealer I spoke to charge a small premium for off road diesel delivery based on the amount purchased if less than 100 gallons. They quoted a premium of $0.20 per gallon premium for from 50 to 100 gallons. They prefer to deliver over 100+ gallons which runs about $325.00 for 100 gallons of off road diesel at current prices.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to iknow

MVM

to iknow
said by iknow :

a 2010 list of LNG stations in florida. »www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc ··· p/FL/CNG

Those are Compressed NG, not Liquid NG. There's only 15 stations for LNG around the country (if that info is current).

Both require very strong tanks, and strong translate into heavy and expensive. The equivalent of 240 gallons of LP is ~ 100 gallons CNG. Not something easily transported if there even was a filling station nearby, something your link doesn't appear to have since all but two were private and/or government only.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to rjgogo

Member

to rjgogo
rjgogo, do you know what the cost was for the original installation of the propane tank and associated equipment? My friend installed a generator and the propane dealer not only connected the generator but replaced their 120 gallon tank with a 250 gallon tank to meet the draw down requirement for the generator. My friend no longer had the bill that indicated the cost to replace the tank or connect the generator.

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

1 edit

pende_tim to scooper

Premium Member

to scooper
Yes, each home has a regulator/gas meter just like natural gas in a city. Meter is read once a month and Sharp Energy ( the propane supplier ) sends the bill.

There is a 10,0000 gal tank (underground) in the woods that is connected to the 500 homes through a piped distribution system.
every few days a semi-trailer pulls in and fills the tank... and we are charged as if it were a 100 gal delivery to an individual tank....but I rant...

Message here is: propane is expensive and if you are locked into 1 supplier because he owns the tank, there is little room to bargain.
rjgogo
join:2003-10-22

rjgogo to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
The original installation was only the cost of the regulator and copper to the regulator and I think less than $100, and that included connection from the tank to the newly installed plumbing in the house. They delivered the tank for free, it is theirs but I can only buy propane from them so it is factored in but compared to what I see here the pricing is reasonable. Primary use is to heat the house. We were on electric and this is way cheaper.

They also use a program to know when to fill up the tank and I never have to call them or monitor it myself. They did say that if whenever the generator runs for a fair amount of time I need to call them as that is not factored in their program. We installed the generator in the spring and I had them come top the tank off. What was in there would have easily lasted the summer but I wanted it full just in case. Power here has never been off for more than two or three days but on well and septic so no power no water no toilets. Had a portable unit but if I am gone the wife can't connect it so it does no good. Great peace of mind having the generator, I don't have to do a thing. Power goes out and 30 seconds later we are all good. Power comes back on and the generator shuts off.
scooper
join:2000-07-11
Kansas City, KS
·Google Fiber

scooper to pende_tim

Member

to pende_tim
said by pende_tim:

Yes, each home has a regulator/gas meter just like natural gas in a city. Meter is read once a month and Sharp Energy ( the propane supplier ) sends the bill.

There is a 10,0000 gal tank (underground) in the woods that is connected to the 500 homes through a piped distribution system.
every few days a semi-trailer pulls in and fills the tank... and we are charged as if it were a 100 gal delivery to an individual tank....but I rant...

Message here is: propane is expensive and if you are locked into 1 supplier because he owns the tank, there is little room to bargain.

Doing some math here - 500 homes using an average of 100 gallons per year is 50,000 gallons of propane. The average semiload tanker is about 6000-7000 gallons - let's use 6500. This means you would need about 8 loads of propane .

Now - on this type of system - the supplier is probably keeping the tank pretty topped up, especially in winter when people are heating their homes (don't want to run out and be blamed for letting people get cold). Also need to keep gas in the tank for winter storms in case they can't make a delivery for a week or two.

I'm fortunate that my propane dealer isn't gouging me that bad - we have a 360 gallon buried tank and it gets filled once /year in September - our last load was about 100 gallons at $3 / gallon. We are on a fair level payment plan so that helps us as well. My use is mostly cooking (gas cooktop and my grill) and we have a propane furnace as backup heat with the heat pump (instead of the electric heat strips).
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to rjgogo

Member

to rjgogo
rigogo: Was there any financial incentive offered to install propane appliances in your home. The natural gas distributor offers up to $1,300.00 to replace electric appliances with natural gas appliances, if natural gas service is available. The minimum is the stove and water heater. Customers will also receive an incentive to replace an electric dryer and electric heat. The reason for the incentive is to offset the cost of replacing the appliances.

In 2010 there were two substantial incentive programs for installing or replacing a tank type water heaters with a tank less water heaters for natural gas or propane customers and was offered by either the local or federal government.

I was told at one time there was a financial incentive to install propane fueled appliances in this area. I wonder if the local distributors and simply not revealing that an incentive is available?

Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

Msradell to iknow

Premium Member

to iknow
said by iknow :

i found many places in florida allow diesel generators, an example. »www.cityftmyers.com/Depa ··· yId=3096

That's a viable option if you only want to run a generator however diesel fuel doesn't have any other uses in residential applications. The OP mentioned possibly using LP for other appliances in the home.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05

Member

said by Msradell:

That's a viable option if you only want to run a generator however diesel fuel doesn't have any other uses in residential applications. The OP mentioned possibly using LP for other appliances in the home.

IIRC #2 Diesel is also known as Home Heating Oil. Or it's close enough that you can burn #2 Diesel for heating if needed. If you buy on road Diesel you could dump it in your car.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to scooper

Member

to scooper
said by scooper:

Now - on this type of system - the supplier is probably keeping the tank pretty topped up, especially in winter when people are heating their homes (don't want to run out and be blamed for letting people get cold). Also need to keep gas in the tank for winter storms in case they can't make a delivery for a week or two.

If the tank runs out of gas they'll likely have to do a leak check on the entire system since pilot lights go out. I believe this is the law in many places.

jack b
Gone Fishing
MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod

jack b to itguy05

MVM

to itguy05
As long as we're going WAY OT: #2 "road" diesel and home heating oil are essentially the same.
I believe a reddish dye is added to home heating fuel to facilitate identifying it in vehicles attempting to evade highway fuel taxes.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

At one time some people used home heating oil in their Mercedes Benz automobiles, that worked quite well. On the other hand Oldsmobile Diesels did not do so well on home heating oil. The low Cetane rating of home heating oil does not affect the performance of oil burners but would affect the performance of some diesel engines. The other question is if the Sulfur content of home heating oil is low enough to be used as fuel for diesel engines. High sulfur content can damage the emission control components of a modern diesel engine. Gasoline would be a good fuel for generators except for the fact that the only unleaded gasoline that has a reasonable shelf line is that without alcohol added. Many petroleum dealers sell unleaded pure gasoline at a slightly higher price. Unfortunately there are no generator systems that can store a reasonable quantity gasoline for several days use. One advantage of propane is that a propane leak will not result in a multimillion dollar clean up of the property, contaminated by the leak.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to jack b

Member

to jack b
said by jack b:

As long as we're going WAY OT: #2 "road" diesel and home heating oil are essentially the same.
I believe a reddish dye is added to home heating fuel to facilitate identifying it in vehicles attempting to evade highway fuel taxes.

You can also get off road diesel which is used for tractors, farm equipment and other stuff including welders and generators. The difference is nil between on road diesel except that (I believe) they flick a switch at the pump to put the red dye in it. There are a few local gas stations here that sell it since we still have quite a bit of agriculture in this area.

Usually passenger vehicles and noncommercial light trucks are not checked but commercial vehicles are checked at the weigh station and random stops. If they dip your tank and it comes out red you're in a heap-o-trouble with the fines being as much as $10,000 for the first offense.

Personally for a generator I would use off road diesel. Home heating oil varies a lot and while in some areas it's the same as diesel, others it is not.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

In regards to buried propane tanks. Will anyone reading this post that has a buried propane tank please advise me the cost to install the tank and what part of the installation cost that the property owner paid for.

Here is what I am looking for:

This budgetary quotation was made on September 15, 2010.

Deliver and install 1-500 gallon customer owned underground LP gas tank with approximately 25 feet of underground gas line to service a generator.
City permit………………….…..………………………………………………75.00
500-gallon underground LP gas tank…..………………………1,600.00
Materials: 2-regulators, shut off valve, various fittings – approximately...225.00
25 feet of gas line @ $5.00 per foot...…...………..………………………….….. ....125.00

Backhoe rental for burial of tank – dirt left on site……………………………………......425.00

Labor to install tank, gas line, connection to generator, gas check and turn on – approximately 5 hours 2 men. ....487.50
400 gallons of LP gas @ $2.19 per gallon (80% full).....876.00
Trip charge.………………………………………………………………………….…25.00
Regulatory compliance charge.…………………………………………………….……3.97
Transportation fuel charge.……………………………………………………..……...…3.00

Subtotal…….………………………………………………………………………... $3,845.47
7 % Sales tax……………..…......………………………………………..……… $202.61
Estimated total…...………….…………………………………………………… $4,048.08

This quotation did not require that I use any propane for the company to justify keeping my account open. Since I would own the tank I could purchase propane from any supplier.

Your assistance will be appreciated.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
Since we are speaking about propane tanks. This is slightly relevant to the topic. The accident makes you want to make "rural people" jokes.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· nUZReoLM
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

patcat88: I appreciated this informative video. Now I understand why one of the local distributors advised me that any tank over 120 gallons would have to be located ten feet from my: Property Line, outside of my house or any ignition source like my air conditioner condensers. I thought he was just trying to be difficult. If I were to chose propane to fuel my generator I would have a tank buried in the front of the house.