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Re: [NCAA-F] Unhappy Valley

If anyone wants to know who really made the final decisions regarding the Penn State football program (until last night), here you go: »www.post-gazette.com/pg/ ··· news.xml
quote:
Mr. Curley's tenure as athletic director has been marked by remarkable on-field success and strong financial gains, earning respect from colleagues nationwide. But at times, he struggled to take control of his expansive program and often lacked the power to assert real change.

He twice tried to remove football coach Joe Paterno in 2004, but ultimately lacked the political capital it took to oust the legendary leader. After Mr. Curley and university President Graham Spanier visited Mr. Paterno's home in November 2004 to ask him to retire, the coach said no. "They didn't quite understand where I was coming from or what it took to get a football program going ...", Mr. Paterno told a Post-Gazette reporter a year later.
fatness

fatness

Sandusky's charity organization, the one he used to have access to boys, is still being investigated. I wouldn't be surprised if some people there are charged. »www.post-gazette.com/pg/ ··· -298.stm
quote:
State Attorney General Linda Kelly on Monday said the investigation was continuing and that more charges were possible. An investigator in the case told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on Tuesday that "a lot of entities besides Penn State University had a hand in this."

In a statement Monday, The Second Mile said it immediately ended Mr. Sandusky's contact with children in the program after he told them in 2008 he was under investigation for alleged sexual contact with a child, an allegation he told the organization was false.

That, however, was at least the third time in 10 years that the organization had been made aware of allegations involving Mr. Sandusky's contacts with children.
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said by kingdome74:

- go way beyond hiding behind the "I told the boss" excuse. Now, of course, the question is whether Penn State will help or hinder prosecution.

I think it's very difficult to tell who will help the prosecution and who will try to remain quiet. It's hard to tell who "Penn State" is any more. With so many firings and perhaps more to come, so many potential lawsuits by victims, by fired employees, and with possible upcoming charges still to come, it's hard to tell who will talk openly and who will remain silent to protect themselves.

I don't see any way the police will leave stones unturned in their investigation, though, which is heartening.

sleuth3
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West Des Moines, IA

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said by fatness:

said by sleuth3:

I am absolutely disgusted by this outcome. His legacy is now forever tarnished for not calling the cops.

He's the one who tarnished his own legacy, by not calling the cops and allowing other kids to get molested for years at Penn State.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's so easy to say that from your high chair.

Paterno and Sandusky have been colleagues for 30 years. In that time I'm sure they have become very good friends. You're telling me you're judging Paterno for not calling the cops on a colleague/friend after an accusation was placed on said friend? I myself would never react in such a manner. Why would I judge someone I've known for so long based on an accusation coming from someone that hasn't been proved/disproved? Unbelieveable. Way to totally bail on your friend and disregard loyalty. You give him the benefit of the doubt until more information is received.

Turns out more information was received from the AD. In return, Joe Paterno did not act. He was loyal to a colleague/friend but in the end got burned. There's no way anyone out there would be so cold as to throw anyone they know under the bus after an accusation from a second hand source.

That being said. I think the University did what's right. All this happened under the current leadership, when it shouldn't have. But people need to stop saying Joe Paterno should be fired for not acting. That is just plain BS. People really need to check there own moral compass and ask themselves if they would call the police on a second hand accusation of someone they are close to. I find this incredibly hard to believe.

Nightfall
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Nightfall

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said by sleuth3:

said by fatness:

said by sleuth3:

I am absolutely disgusted by this outcome. His legacy is now forever tarnished for not calling the cops.

He's the one who tarnished his own legacy, by not calling the cops and allowing other kids to get molested for years at Penn State.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's so easy to say that from your high chair.

Paterno and Sandusky have been colleagues for 30 years. In that time I'm sure they have become very good friends. You're telling me you're judging Paterno for not calling the cops on a colleague/friend after an accusation was placed on said friend? I myself would never react in such a manner. Why would I judge someone I've known for so long based on an accusation coming from someone that hasn't been proved/disproved? Unbelieveable. Way to totally bail on your friend and disregard loyalty. You give him the benefit of the doubt until more information is received.

Turns out more information was received from the AD. In return, Joe Paterno did not act. He was loyal to a colleague/friend but in the end got burned. There's no way anyone out there would be so cold as to throw anyone they know under the bus after an accusation from a second hand source.

That being said. I think the University did what's right. All this happened under the current leadership, when it shouldn't have. But people need to stop saying Joe Paterno should be fired for not acting. That is just plain BS. People really need to check there own moral compass and ask themselves if they would call the police on a second hand accusation of someone they are close to. I find this incredibly hard to believe.

As you pointed out, people are only all over Paterno after seeing how badly things turned out in hindsight. Not a single person here would take a friendship and colleague they have had for 20+ years and disregard it. In fact, based on Paterno's grand jury testimony, it makes perfect sense.

Grad assistant comes into Joe's office and says he saw something innappropriate in the shower and Sandusky was involved. What was the problem? No details were given at all according to Paterno. Now, being as that Sandusky was his friend and colleague, he did all he really could do and reported it. He may have talked to him outside of that, as his friend, but he isn't going to give a grad assistant the benefit of the doubt and terminate the friendship he has had for 20+ years.

Not a single person calling Paterno out would have done that either. Imagine you have a friendship spanning 20+ years. You also work together. Then someone who you have been working with for the last few years comes to you and says he saw your friend having anal sex with a minor. Would you take that information and ask your friend about it? Would you call the cops right away? What does 20+ years of loyalty and friendship get you in your mind? Maybe the benefit of the doubt?

Not according to many people who are throwing Paterno under the bus and saying he should feel great guilt for what he has done. If anything, Paterno does feel sorrow and guilt over this whole situation. If anything, its because the friend and colleague he trusted for 20+ years ended up being a pedophile and hurt many children.

Moorecards
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Martinsburg, WV

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I would like to know if Joe Pa knew about this:

1998: According to the grand jury report, an 11-year-old boy’s mother called university police to complain after finding out her son had showered with Sandusky. A state Department of Public Welfare investigator told the grand jury that Sandusky had showered with the boy (Victim 6) and hugged him and “admitted that it was wrong” and promised to not shower with the boy again. The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.

I would think since Sandusky was still a coach, Joe Pa would of knew about it, and if he did know, then what happen in 2002 he should of done more IMO.

AB57
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said by sleuth3:

Jesus... what about Mike McQuery who actually witnessed it? Why isn't he being scrutinized for lack of action?

He is. I certainly question his lack of action. Many others posting here do, too. No doubt so do many people out in the community and the world.
How much the Penn Staters or grand jury want to scrutinize his lack of any further actions is up to them.
But McQueary's lack of further action, and having that inaction scrutinized (or not), is not an absolvement of Paterno's own lack of further actions.

So what did Paterno do wrong?

. . Yes he could have done more.

That's what he did wrong. Not doing more.

Moorecards
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If this is true, this guy is a sick bastard.

»www.huffingtonpost.com/2 ··· 7C111562

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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said by AB57:

said by sleuth3:

Jesus... what about Mike McQuery who actually witnessed it? Why isn't he being scrutinized for lack of action?

He is. I certainly question his lack of action. Many others posting here do, too. No doubt so do many people out in the community and the world.
How much the Penn Staters or grand jury want to scrutinize his lack of any further actions is up to them.
But McQueary's lack of further action, and having that inaction scrutinized (or not), is not an absolvement of Paterno's own lack of further actions.

So what did Paterno do wrong?

. . Yes he could have done more.

That's what he did wrong. Not doing more.

Once again, it is all about what Paterno was told in 2002.

Do you believe that MCQueary told Paterno what he saw in great detail like he did in the grand jury testimony?

Or...

Do you believe Paterno's grand jury testimony that McQueary said he saw something and gave no specifics as to what he saw?

I find McQueary's waiting over 9 years between incidents to be a significant sign. I would almost guarantee he didn't come to Paterno with the detailed information. He probably didn't have the balls to do it at the time. It only took him 7-8 years to get the balls to testify. I guess I find it very very suspect that he sat on this information and did nothing.

What surprises me is that no one is really questioning this behavior. People are spending too much time demonizing Paterno who is a figure at the university. The real people at fault were McQueary for witnessing the act and not calling the police. The janitor for witnessing the act and not calling the police. The AD for getting this information and not investigating thoroughly. The AD for not calling the police as well. I could name a few other people...but none of those people are named Joe Paterno.

AB57
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AB57

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said by Nightfall:

said by AB57:

said by sleuth3:

Jesus... what about Mike McQuery who actually witnessed it? Why isn't he being scrutinized for lack of action?

He is. I certainly question his lack of action. Many others posting here do, too. No doubt so do many people out in the community and the world.
How much the Penn Staters or grand jury want to scrutinize his lack of any further actions is up to them.
But McQueary's lack of further action, and having that inaction scrutinized (or not), is not an absolvement of Paterno's own lack of further actions.

So what did Paterno do wrong?

. . Yes he could have done more.

That's what he did wrong. Not doing more.

Once again, it is all about what Paterno was told in 2002.

Maybe to you; not to me. But we can let the other issues lay, for now.

Do you believe that MCQueary told Paterno what he saw in great detail like he did in the grand jury testimony?

Or...

Do you believe Paterno's grand jury testimony that McQueary said he saw something and gave no specifics as to what he saw?

I would have very great difficulty in believing McQueary could relate to Paterno the ass-raping of a ten year-old by a man in his fifties, which he had witnessed maybe less than twelve hours previously, in terms so that Paterno was unclear on what had been witnessed.

I find McQueary's waiting over 9 years between incidents to be a significant sign. I would almost guarantee he didn't come to Paterno with the detailed information.

. . What surprises me is that no one is really questioning this behavior.

I'm questioning it. Are we clear on that now?

You absolve Paterno of any wrongdoing-- 'in your mind', and come hell or high water. I think we're all very clear on that one by now.

Nightfall
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Nightfall

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said by AB57:

You absolve Paterno of any wrongdoing-- 'in your mind', and come hell or high water. I think we're all very clear on that one by now.

Just as we are all very clear of your mission to only look at the grand jury testimony and ignore all other evidence and possibilities.

It seems that both our minds are made up for now. Maybe they will change in another few years after the dust has settled and everything has come out. The proof will be in the pudding by then....hopefully.

AB57
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AB57

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said by Nightfall:

said by AB57:

You absolve Paterno of any wrongdoing-- 'in your mind', and come hell or high water. I think we're all very clear on that one by now.

Just as we are all very clear of your mission to only look at the grand jury testimony and ignore all other evidence and possibilities.

No, that's not what I'm doing.
I'm assessing facts and evidence as reported, interpreting them as best my real-world experiences allow me to, then coming up with what I consider to be a reasoned speculation or surmisation of a most likely/most possible way things went down.

You're the one who seems to have the blinders on, and willing to play apologist and excuse-maker for Paterno, come what may.
If that's what you consider to be your own reasoned assessment and interpretation of the situation, then I guess so be it.

sleuth3
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said by AB57:

said by sleuth3:

So what did Paterno do wrong?

. . Yes he could have done more.

That's what he did wrong. Not doing more.

Does nobody have life long friends anymore or understand the value of friendship?

I really feel sad for everyone out there then. There's no way I would question any of my friends if some random joker came to me with accusations. Based on the flimsy information from the accuser, there's no way Paterno should be expected to do more, like calling the police. He gave his friend the benefit of the doubt, like any normal human being would. NAY! Should!

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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said by AB57:

said by Nightfall:

said by AB57:

You absolve Paterno of any wrongdoing-- 'in your mind', and come hell or high water. I think we're all very clear on that one by now.

Just as we are all very clear of your mission to only look at the grand jury testimony and ignore all other evidence and possibilities.

No, that's not what I'm doing.
I'm assessing facts and evidence as reported, interpreting them as best my real-world experiences allow me to, then coming up with what I consider to be a reasoned speculation or surmisation of a most likely/most possible way things went down.

You're the one who seems to have the blinders on, and willing to play apologist and excuse-maker for Paterno, come what may.
If that's what you consider to be your own reasoned assessment and interpretation of the situation, then I guess so be it.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment. I feel I am doing the same thing as you are. Looking at the case in its entirety and making an informed opinion without a "pro" Penn State bias or "anti" Paterno bias which is what the media as a whole is doing right now. I just question why there is zero speculation on why there is a difference in grand jury testimonies and why everyone is taking what McQueary said at total truth. Some things just don't add up thats for sure.

Its ok to agree to disagree on this matter though. Lets just keep the personal jabs out from this point forward. Fair enough?
Nightfall

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said by sleuth3:

said by AB57:

said by sleuth3:

So what did Paterno do wrong?

. . Yes he could have done more.

That's what he did wrong. Not doing more.

Does nobody have life long friends anymore or understand the value of friendship?

I really feel sad for everyone out there then. There's no way I would question any of my friends if some random joker came to me with accusations. Based on the flimsy information from the accuser, there's no way Paterno should be expected to do more, like calling the police. He gave his friend the benefit of the doubt, like any normal human being would. NAY! Should!

The problem here is that people are looking in hindsight and saying they were right. That is easy for anyone to do at this stage. Its more difficult to really assess without emotion coming into play right now. I know I would stand by my friends if they were accused of this kind of behavior and it was the first I have heard of it. Apparently, there are too many people out there that would "just know" those allegations were true when they happened. I shudder to be one of their friends and be sold up the river if someone decided to lie and say that I molested children.

Moorecards
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It wasn't a random joker, it was a former starting QB & team captain for Penn State.

sleuth3
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sleuth3

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said by Moorecards:

It wasn't a random joker, it was a former starting QB & team captain for Penn State.

Ah, that makes it okay and valid to accuse someone.

I don't care if it's Michael Jordan (my childhood hero) being the accuser. I'm going to tell him to f off. Why would I believe anyone over someone I've known half my life?

Del_Gue
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An interesting POV from Barry Switzer

"Having been in this profession a long time and knowing how close coaching staffs are, I knew that this was a secret that was kept secret," Switzer said. "Everyone on that staff had to have known, the ones that had been around a long time."

"There are more people culpable than just Joe Paterno and the athletic director," Switzer said via telephone while traveling in Texas. "There are so many other people that have thought, 'I could've done something about this, too' that didn't come forward. That's the tragedy of it."

pflog
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More opinions being paraded as facts. Very well may be true it was known more widely. I for one will wait for FACTS and EVIDENCE instead of assumptions based on what sports figures/writers/coaches are saying in interviews.

Moorecards
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said by sleuth3:

said by Moorecards:

It wasn't a random joker, it was a former starting QB & team captain for Penn State.

Ah, that makes it okay and valid to accuse someone.

I don't care if it's Michael Jordan (my childhood hero) being the accuser. I'm going to tell him to f off. Why would I believe anyone over someone I've known half my life?

It would be only valid to accuse if it was true, and it seem it was true.

Because sometimes, even though you know someone that long, you didn't know them well enough.

And yes, when I was in my 40's and a fellow employee at work told me that another employee was stealing and the person that was stealing I knew for 18 years and were close friends. I confronted my friend and he denied it. But I didn't drop it, and caught him myself on the security camera stealing.

Not the same as sexual abuse, but no one really knows what someone else is capable of no matter how long you known them.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by Moorecards:

said by sleuth3:

said by Moorecards:

It wasn't a random joker, it was a former starting QB & team captain for Penn State.

Ah, that makes it okay and valid to accuse someone.

I don't care if it's Michael Jordan (my childhood hero) being the accuser. I'm going to tell him to f off. Why would I believe anyone over someone I've known half my life?

Because sometimes, even though you know someone that long, you didn't know them well enough.

And yes, when I was in my 40's and a fellow employee at work told me that another employee was stealing and the person that was stealing I knew for 18 years and were close friends. I confronted my friend and he denied it. But I didn't drop it, and caught him myself on the security camera stealing.

Not the same as sexual abuse, but no one really knows what someone else is capable off no matter how long you known them.

The point is though that you followed up and did the investigation yourself. If someone said your friend was in a shower with a little kid, would you do the same thing? Would you question him first? Would you call the police on him right off the bat? Would you investigate him?

Many people seem to agree that calling the police at the first accusation should have been what he did. That isn't what 99% of the people put in that situation would do. They would question their friend first at least.

Moorecards
join:2001-10-19
Martinsburg, WV

Moorecards

Member

said by Nightfall:

The point is though that you followed up and did the investigation yourself. If someone said your friend was in a shower with a little kid, would you do the same thing? Would you question him first? Would you call the police on him right off the bat? Would you investigate him?

Many people seem to agree that calling the police at the first accusation should have been what he did. That isn't what 99% of the people put in that situation would do. They would question their friend first at least.

The asst coached should of called the police right away. He saw it happening.

From everything I read, Joe Pa didn't follow up on it or didn't ask his friend. IF he did, it hasn't been reported anywhere.

If it was me, I would of questioned my friend with the asst coach there and try to figure out what happen. That is what I would of done.

I would still like to know if Joe Pa knew about what happened in 1998 with this guy when he was still a coach for Joe.

pflog
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Holy shit. Unbelievable.

»www.amazon.com/Touched-J ··· _product

Amazon and any other people selling this book should remove it immediately.

Nightfall
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Nightfall

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said by pflog:

Holy shit. Unbelievable.

»www.amazon.com/Touched-J ··· _product

Amazon and any other people selling this book should remove it immediately.

Innocent until proven guilty is probably the reason why.

AB57
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said by sleuth3:

Does nobody have life long friends anymore or understand the value of friendship?

I really feel sad for everyone out there then. There's no way I would question any of my friends if some random joker came to me with accusations. Based on the flimsy information from the accuser, there's no way Paterno should be expected to do more, like calling the police. He gave his friend the benefit of the doubt, like any normal human being would. NAY! Should!

McQueary was on the staff, and evidently knew Paterno well enough to go over to or be invited to Paterno's home on a Saturday morning. That's not a "random joker".

"Flimsy information from the accuser"? Words used and actual content of the conversation we are not privvy to. There can be no one-way 'benefit of the doubt' given to the 'flimsiness' of any information related or vaguaries of that conversation, if any existed.

This would seem to be at least the second time Paterno knew of allegations against Sandusky. This time, it was an eyewitness account coming from a staff member.
How much does 'the value of friendship' override?

Sandusky had been barred from bringing children onto the grounds of Penn State. What about the report that he brought one or some of those Foundation kids to a Penn State game in 2007?
What did Joe do, say, or know about that? The answer to the first two is 'nothing'; I'd bet the answer to the third is 'plenty'. I'd bet Sandusky introduced some of them to the coach.

Sandusky gets a nice retirement package shortly after the '98 incident comes to light.
He's told not to bring kids on campus.
He's accused by an eyewitness of "inappropriate" behavior in the Penn State shower room.
He's around kids a lot, re: 'the Foundation', and everyone knows that.
He brings a child/children he's not allowed bring with him onto campus onto campus-- and long after two separate molestation accusations are known of.

Nobody does nothin' though, nobody says nothin'. Even Joe Pa.
Better to just leave everything unsaid and unwondered and unacted-upon, and simply allow 'the value of friendship' to kick in.

pflog
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said by Nightfall:

Innocent until proven guilty is probably the reason why.

Yeah, I know, I know. Just creepy.

AB57
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said by Moorecards:

. . when I was in my 40's and a fellow employee at work told me that another employee was stealing and the person that was stealing I knew for 18 years and were close friends. I confronted my friend and he denied it.

He denied the accusation straight up? Amazing. That almost never happens.

fatness
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said by Nightfall:

Grad assistant comes into Joe's office and says he saw something innappropriate in the shower and Sandusky was involved. What was the problem? No details were given at all according to Paterno.

That is not correct.
quote:
On March 1, 2002, a Penn State graduate assistant ("graduate assistant") who was then 28 years old, entered the locker room at the Lasch Football Building on the University Park Campus on a Friday night before the beginning of Spring Break. The graduate assistant, who was familiar with Sandusky, was going to put some newly purchased sneakers in his locker and get some recruiting tapes to watch. It was about 9:30 p.m. As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal
intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught.
The graduate assistant went to his office and called his father, reporting to him what he had seen. His father told the graduate assistant to leave the building and come to his home. The
graduate assistant and his father decided that the graduate assistant had to report what he had seen to Coach Joe Paterno ,head football coach of Pemi State. The next morning, a Saturday, the graduate assistant telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno's home, where he reported what he had seen.

Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate superior, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
That is directly from the grand jury report. »www.washingtonpost.com/w ··· 011.html

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And riots in State College after the announcement:


said by Christian Science Monitor :

Penn State riot: Students react to Joe Paterno firing

Penn State riot: Students held a protest rally Wednesday night after head coach Joe Paterno was fired in the wake of a sex-abuse scandal. Then, Penn State students flipped over a media van and riot police moved in.

...

»www.csmonitor.com/USA/La ··· o-firing

fatness
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fatness

quote:
According to the report, McQueary heard “rhythmic, slapping sounds,” which he believed to be those of sexual activity. He walked to his locker, opened it and put his sneakers inside. He then turned his head and looked into the shower.

He has said under oath that he saw Sandusky raping what appeared to be a 10-year-old boy. He immediately left, met with his father and determined he would report the incident to Paterno, according to prosecutors. A person familiar with his account said McQueary did not spare the details when he met with Paterno. Nor did he when he met with the university’s athletic director and another senior administrator, the man in charge of Penn State’s campus police.
»www.nytimes.com/2011/11/ ··· nted=all

There's nothing from Paterno disputing any of that.