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Voxxjin
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reply to fatness

Re: [NCAA-F] Unhappy Valley

My wife and I were talking about this last night. We ended up on differing opinions on what the grad student should have done. I think he should have tried to stop it then and there either by physically stopping it or yelling at him or calling the police right then. The wife kept saying that the grad student did right by talking to Joe the next day.

Seriously if you saw what was happening in the showers, what would you have done?
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pflog
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reply to Nightfall
I see your point. It's really sad that the policies of an organization are built around proper procedure and people were hurt because Paterno and McQueary felt their jobs were in jeopardy if they went outside the chain of command to report it to the police. At the same time, why the hell didn't McQueary report it to the police? He was a witness of a serious crime. It's apparent he put his career and stature in the program before these boys' lives. The lack of action by the administration and their attempts to cover it up screwed Paterno, but so did McQuery reporting it to him and not the police.
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"Women. Can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts." -Norm


AB
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reply to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

. . I am believing that the police were notified. The DA had the case in his hands in 1998 and did not prosecute. Does that not sound fishy to you? The DA just doesn't get cases like that without a police investigation.

You seem to be confusing a 1998 incident which was reported to police by the mother of the victim child after the child had told her what happened with the separate and different incidents witnessed by the Penn State janitor and Penn State graduate assistant in 2000 and 2002, and which were never reported to police.

Whether the D.A. did or did not prosecute Sandusky in 1998 has no bearing on whether witnessed incidents two and four years later should have been reported to police and otherwise acted upon.


pflog
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reply to AB
said by AB:

There's no 'disaster' in reporting to police what an underling has reported to you that he witnessed.
That's merely relating info, not making any hard accusation.
If it's false info, then it's the graduate assistant who's on the hotseat for that one-- and who should be on the hotseat now anyway for not himself doing more than simply reporting the incident to Paterno.

Yeah right, like the media wouldn't be on a witch hunt for Paterno's head for false allegations. Granted, I think it would be the moral and ethical thing to do, and in this case dealing with children's lives, it's better to err on the side of caution, but if you think all the blame would have been on McQueary and Paterno's name wouldn't have been blemished, you're nuts. The media's coverage of this so far makes that pretty apparent.
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"Women. Can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts." -Norm


AB
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said by pflog:

said by AB:

There's no 'disaster' in reporting to police what an underling has reported to you that he witnessed.
That's merely relating info, not making any hard accusation.
If it's false info, then it's the graduate assistant who's on the hotseat for that one-- and who should be on the hotseat now anyway for not himself doing more than simply reporting the incident to Paterno.

Yeah right, like the media wouldn't be on a witch hunt for Paterno's head for false allegations. Granted, I think it would be the moral and ethical thing to do, and in this case dealing with children's lives, it's better to err on the side of caution, but if you think all the blame would have been on McQueary and Paterno's name wouldn't have been blemished, you're nuts. The media's coverage of this so far makes that pretty apparent.

Guess I'm nuts then.
Any chance you could provide some link that shows evidence of a 'media witch hunt'?
All I've seen so far are stories that call his actions and ethical decisions on the matter into question. It's my belief that his actions and decisions here have every right to be called into question.

Some columnists are calling for him to step down over his handling of the situation. You'll have to show me where that opinion is not put forth with reason and amounts only to witch hunting.


fatness
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reply to fatness
The investigation is still ongoing. There may be more victims, and that may lead to more charges after police investigate.
quote:
Sources tell Fox 29 since a press conference on Monday, the number of potential victims has more than doubled in the case.

Sandusky was arrested in the case and made bail, while two Penn State administrators face charges related to how an alleged crime was reported in the case to police and investigators.

On Monday, state officials publicized two phone numbers for past victims to call, and within a day, it seems investigators have new leads.

Also on Monday, Pennsylvania state attorney general Linda Kelly said the Sandusky case was consideried an on-going investigation and more charges could be coming.
»www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/sports/l···e-110811
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fatness
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quote:
Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate supervisor, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Builing showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
From the grand jury report

downloadsandusky-gra···ment.pdf 996284 bytes


Anyone who doesn't report to the police a grown man fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy, at his workplace, deserves firing. Paterno isn't the worst actor here, but he had a duty to report this.
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The Dv8or
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reply to fatness
Sandusky is maintaining that he's innocent. Id like to see how he pulls that one off.
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fatness
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My guess is that he's going to try for some payout from the university in order to keep quiet, plead guilty to a statement of facts, and keep all the details from being exposed over a period of weeks in the courtroom and in the press. That might be worth a lot of money to Penn State.

Cynical guess, I know.
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fatness
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quote:
What follows is a summary of the grand jury's report.

• Sandusky's victims all reported a wide array of sexual abuse allegations. Sandusky, who is married, met many of them through The Second Mile. Many spent the night at his home. He brought them to Philadelphia Eagles games, plus Penn State practices, tailgate parties, and home games. One of the victims traveled to the 1998 Outback Bowl and the 1999 Alamo Bowl as a member of Sandusky's family's party. That same victim often stayed with Sandusky at a State College-area hotel on the night before home games. He also frequently dined with the coaching staff and accompanied Sandusky to numerous charity outings. Sandusky had lavished this victim with a variety of gifts. According to the report, "Sandusky even guaranteed [this victim] he could be a walk-on player at Penn State. [The victim] was in a video about linebackers that featured Sandusky, and he appeared with him in a photo accompanying an article about Sandusky in Sports Illustrated." Sandusky later tried to bribe this victim with cigarettes and marijuana after this victim began refusing his advances.

• Also: "[This victim] remembers Sandusky being emotionally upset after having a meeting with Joe Paterno in which Paterno told Sandusky he would not be the next head coach at Penn State and which preceded Sandusky's retirement. Sandusky told the victim not to tell anyone about the meeting. That meeting occurred in May 1999."

• Sandusky was investigated by university police in 1998 after a mother reported to them that her 11-year-old son had showered with Sandusky. A university police detective and a municipal police detective later eavesdropped on a conversation between the mother and Sandusky in which Sandusky answered "I don't know ... maybe" when the mother asked him if he had touched her son inappropriately. He also admitted he had showered with the boy to an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare. The university police detective advised Sandusky not to shower with a child again, and Sandusky promised he would not. No charges were filed.

• In March 2002, a graduate assistant stumbled upon Sandusky and a boy showering together at Penn State's football facility. The grand jury report included the horrifying details of what that graduate assistant saw and heard:

As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and the showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put his sneakers in his locker, he looked in the shower. He saw a naked boy ... whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both [the victim] and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught.

• The graduate assistant informed Joe Paterno the next day, and Paterno told Curley the day after that. About a week and a half after that, the graduate assistant met with Curley and Gary Schultz, Penn State's Vice President for Finance and Business and the other school administrator to be charged with perjury and failure to report an allegation. The graduate assistant described what he saw as being of a "sexual nature." Paterno said the graduate assistant had told him Sandusky's actions were "disturbing" and "inappropriate." Curley acknowledged to the grand jury that he was told Sandusky's actions were "inappropriate" and that they had made the graduate assistant "uncomfortable"; however, Curley denied under oath that he was told Sandusky had done anything sexual. Schultz conceded under oath that the graduate assistant had told him of inappropriate sexual conduct. But he also testified that the allegations were "not that serious" and that he and Curley were unaware any crime had taken place.

• It is worth noting here what Paterno did upon hearing a first-hand story from a "very upset" graduate assistant, in the words of the report, about "Jerry Sandusky ... fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy": Paterno took no action except to tell his athletic director.

• Curley and Schultz did tell Penn State president Graham Spanier what they had heard, but Spanier told the grand jury that Curley and Schultz had described Sandusky's actions to him as mere "horsing around in the shower." Spanier also denied any knowledge of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky by university police. Spanier issued a statement Saturday saying Curley and Schultz had his "unconditional support."

• Schultz's duties included oversight of the university police. He testified that he was aware of the 1998 incident and acknowledged similarities between it and the 2002 allegations. But according to the grand jury report, Schultz "never sought or reviewed a police report on the 1998 incident and never attempted to learn the identity of the child in the shower in 2002. No one from the university did so. Schultz did not ask the graduate assistant for specifics. No one ever did. Schultz expressed surprise upon learning that the 1998 investigation by University Police produced a lengthy police report. Schultz said there was never any discussion between himself and Curley about turning the 2002 incident over to any police agency." The graduate assistant was also never questioned by police.

• Sandusky was told he could no longer bring children into Penn State's football facility in light of the 2002 incident, and the executive director of The Second Mile was made aware of that fact, in addition to the incident. Schultz testified that Spanier had approved this decision. Schultz also said he believed he and Curley had informed a "child protection agency" about the 2002 incident. Curley also admitted "the ban on bringing children to the campus was unenforceable," in the words of the report.

• Records show that the 2002 incident was never reported to the Department of Public Welfare, Children and Youth Services, or the university police, in violation of state law.

• The Patriot-News of Harrisburg reported Saturday that a source close to the investigation said Paterno would not be charged and that he would testify against Sandusky at trial.

• One of Sandusky's victims told the grand jury Sandusky had brought him to Penn State's preseason practices in 2007—a full five years after Paterno was made aware of sexual activity involving Sandusky and another boy.
»deadspin.com/5856777/a-guide-to-···gnorance
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pflog
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reply to fatness
Which conflicts with his statement earlier today:

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

Emphasis mine. I think "fonding or doing something of a sexual nature to a young box" is specific enough. So which is it?
--
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AB
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said by pflog:

Which conflicts with his statement earlier today:

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

Emphasis mine. I think "fonding or doing something of a sexual nature to a young bo(y)" is specific enough. So which is it?

If you think that's specific enough, then why does it matter which it is? According to what you just said, the graduate assistant telling him "I saw the kid bent over with his hands against the shower room wall while Sandusky was behind him with his cock up his ass" wouldn't have made any difference in Paterno's understanding of the situation.


pflog
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It doesn't matter, that's my point. Even just "horsing around" in the shower naked with a young boy is plenty of details for him to have raised the red flag. If those statements are both true, then yeah I would have expected him to report it as I thought him a moral/ethical person.
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"Women. Can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts." -Norm

sailor
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reply to fatness
OUR VIEW: Penn State's Graham Spanier, Joe Paterno need to leave as result of Jerry Sandusky case. Doing what the law required wasn't enough

»www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.···iew.html


AB
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reply to pflog
said by pflog:

It doesn't matter, that's my point. Even just "horsing around" in the shower naked with a young boy is plenty of details for him to have raised the red flag. If those statements are both true, then yeah I would have expected him to report it as I thought him a moral/ethical person.

Yep, exactly.
He's far from the most culpable person in this, and did nothing worth being criminally charged for.

On the other hand, no one at Penn State who knew about this but took no overt action to stop it is without blood on their hands. Paterno is one of those, and his legacy with the school up to this point is irrelevant.


Nightfall
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reply to fatness
said by fatness:

quote:
Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate supervisor, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Builing showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
From the grand jury report

[att=1]

Anyone who doesn't report to the police a grown man fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy, at his workplace, deserves firing. Paterno isn't the worst actor here, but he had a duty to report this.

Another thing to think about is that Sandusky is a trusted person on his staff. If another staff member says that saw him fondling a little boy, would you report it immediately? If the guy was a stranger, maybe. This guy is a trusted person on the coaching staff. Wouldn't you encourage the person who saw it to go to the police? Either that or wouldn't you report it to campus police?

I just don't see that Paterno did anything wrong in this case. If Penn State hangs him out to dry, I am going to be really pissed off.
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drslash
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reply to fatness
This is not your garden variety scandal like trinkets for tattoos at Ohio State or alleged recruiting violations with Cam Newton. This is bad stuff. My assumption is that cover ups are going on. If I had kids at Penn State I would want them out. If I was a donor I would never give another penny until the house is cleaned out and the school does some serious work with the community and abuse victims. Only a total blood letting and major PR moves by Penn State would begin to restore any level of trust.
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SandShark
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reply to Nightfall
But, you're forgetting the 1998 incident. Sandusky admitted to university police he was taking showers with children. Paterno had to know about that because the next year, Sandusky, in the prime of his coaching career, the architect of Linebacker U and the heir apparent to Paterno suddenly retires never to coach again. Don't you find that the least bit strange? Then, in 2002, when the graduate assistant comes to Paterno, all Paterno felt obligated to do was call the AD without ever following up on what action was taken or, more importantly, never bothered to inquire as to who the young boy was or what help was offered to him? Paterno knew Sandusky was a pedophile since 1998 and never once bothered to do more than he was required to do under the law. All he cared about was football and his legacy.

sailor
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reply to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

If Penn State hangs him out to dry, I am going to be really pissed off.

I bet he'll be fired within the next 48 hours.


FFH5
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said by sailor:

said by Nightfall:

If Penn State hangs him out to dry, I am going to be really pissed off.

I bet he'll be fired within the next 48 hours.

Paterno won't be fired. He will announce his "retirement" which will be effective at the end of the season. And the President of the University will resign after the Board of Trustees meeting on Friday, where the Gov of Pa will take part, which is very unusual.

Next steps:
Interim President of Univ announced
Temporary athletic director named
Search starts for new Univ President
Search starts for permanent athletic director
Search starts for new Football Head Coach
--
»www.politico.com/rss/2012-election.xml
»www.politico.com/rss/2012-election-blog.xml



AB
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1 edit
reply to Nightfall
*Edit- Disregard. Poster error.


pflog
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You're quoting me in the first quote and him in the second.

*edit* Or if you were asking the thread in general, nevermind.


AB
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said by pflog:

You're quoting me in the first quote and him in the second.

*edit* Or if you were asking the thread in general, nevermind.

No, you're right. I screwed up. (Maybe I really am nuts.)

Thanks for alerting me to that. I'm going to edit out that post.


Nightfall
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reply to SandShark
said by SandShark:

But, you're forgetting the 1998 incident. Sandusky admitted to university police he was taking showers with children. Paterno had to know about that because the next year, Sandusky, in the prime of his coaching career, the architect of Linebacker U and the heir apparent to Paterno suddenly retires never to coach again. Don't you find that the least bit strange? Then, in 2002, when the graduate assistant comes to Paterno, all Paterno felt obligated to do was call the AD without ever following up on what action was taken or, more importantly, never bothered to inquire as to who the young boy was or what help was offered to him? Paterno knew Sandusky was a pedophile since 1998 and never once bothered to do more than he was required to do under the law. All he cared about was football and his legacy.

I just don't see how Paterno can go to the police with some unsubstantiated claim of something he didn't witness. Its like me going to the police and saying, "I had a friend of mine come to me to tell me he saw another friend of mine doing something inappropriate with a little boy.". The police are going to not be interested in what I heard, they are going to be interested in what my friend saw. Which is why I think going to the campus authorities or the AD was the best option for Paterno. He reported what he heard to them and the AD was SUPPOSED to look into the claim and go to the authorities.

There is a BIG difference between witnessing an act and hearing about someone who witnessed an act. Then, on top of that, it wasn't like the guy said he was raping the boy. He was just doing something "inappropriate". Well, if he won't give details, its kind of hard to determine what the level of importance is.
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C_
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reply to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

Lets say you are the boss of a department. Someone comes to you and says they may have seen "inappropriate actions" between a man and a boy in the bathroom. You question the person and then you have a decision to make. With no evidence at all, do you go to the police? I would report it to HR and let HR take the witness aside and talk to them. I would encourage the witness to go to the police and talk it over with them. I haven't seen anything.

This is where the problem comes into play. The witness decided not to go to the police. The campus authorities did nothing. The leadership of Penn State just told Sandusky he couldn't bring boys into the locker room anymore.

If I asked HR what the result of the action was, they would tell me that the DA investigated and decided not to prosecute. Which is true back in 1998 when the DA said no.

at almost all large corporations HR would tell you exactly zero and that it is no longer your concern, irregardless of what actually ends up happening with the investigation
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Nightfall
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said by C_:

said by Nightfall:

Lets say you are the boss of a department. Someone comes to you and says they may have seen "inappropriate actions" between a man and a boy in the bathroom. You question the person and then you have a decision to make. With no evidence at all, do you go to the police? I would report it to HR and let HR take the witness aside and talk to them. I would encourage the witness to go to the police and talk it over with them. I haven't seen anything.

This is where the problem comes into play. The witness decided not to go to the police. The campus authorities did nothing. The leadership of Penn State just told Sandusky he couldn't bring boys into the locker room anymore.

If I asked HR what the result of the action was, they would tell me that the DA investigated and decided not to prosecute. Which is true back in 1998 when the DA said no.

at almost all large corporations HR would tell you exactly zero and that it is no longer your concern, irregardless of what actually ends up happening with the investigation

Still, HR would handle it. Or in this case the AD would handle it and he didn't.

I think that people are stuck on the fact that Paterno knew Sandusky was a scumbag. People are also assuming that the grad assistant told Paterno the same level of detail he told the grand jury. Paterno just said that the grad assistant told him that he saw "inappropriate actions" and that he didn't go into detail. Who is right here?

I believe the grad assistant is covering his ass because he is the guy who didnt' follow protocol. Either that or he stopped being a chicken about it. Either that or the university screwed him and this is his way of getting back.
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C_
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more like people are acting like paterno would announce at staff meetings that sandusky was a pepohile but don't go tell anyone we need to keep this a secret
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FFH5
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2 edits

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reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by sailor:

said by Nightfall:

If Penn State hangs him out to dry, I am going to be really pissed off.

I bet he'll be fired within the next 48 hours.

Paterno won't be fired. He will announce his "retirement" which will be effective at the end of the season. And the President of the University will resign after the Board of Trustees meeting on Friday, where the Gov of Pa will take part, which is very unusual.

Next steps:
Interim President of Univ announced
Temporary athletic director named
Search starts for new Univ President
Search starts for permanent athletic director
Search starts for new Football Head Coach

Step 1 prediction comes true. Paterno to retire at end of season:
»www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573···tragedy/

Penn State football coach Joe Paterno will retire at the end of the season, his long and illustrious career brought down because he failed to do all he could about an allegation of child sex abuse against a former assistant.

Paterno decided to retire at age 84, in the middle of his 46th season with the Nittany Lions. He won 409 games, a record for major college football, but now, the grandfatherly coach known as "Joe Pa," who had painstakingly burnished a reputation for winning "the right way," leaves the only school he's ever coached in disgrace.

"That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can," Paterno said.

Next announcement when the President of Penn State steps down.
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SandShark
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reply to Nightfall
I never sad Paterno should have gone to the police. I think he should have, but I didn't say that. What I asked was didn't you find it the least bit strange that Sandusky retired when he did, especially considering the incident in 1998? I have to believe Paterno knew about that incident or why else would he tell Sandusky he wasn't in line to become head coach? I think Paterno, either directly or indirectly, had something to do with convincing Sandusky to retire when he did.

Regarding the 2002 incident, Paterno should have taken more responsibility and asked more questions even though he wasn't "legally obligated" to do so. If someone came to me and told me a grown man was in the shower doing something "inappropriate" with a child, I'd damn sure want to know what he meant by that. Then, I would have gone to Sandusky personally and questioned him about the incident, especially since I knew he had a history of inappropriate behavior with children.

Nevertheless, Paterno announced his retirement - "...I wish I had done more."


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reply to pflog
said by pflog:

It doesn't matter, that's my point. Even just "horsing around" in the shower naked with a young boy is plenty of details for him to have raised the red flag.

It sure is, I agree.
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their dreams a tattered sail in the wind