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AB57
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Re: [NCAA-F] Unhappy Valley

*Edit- Disregard. Poster error.

pflog
Bueller? Bueller?
MVM
join:2001-09-01
El Dorado Hills, CA

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pflog

MVM

You're quoting me in the first quote and him in the second.

*edit* Or if you were asking the thread in general, nevermind.

AB57
Premium Member
join:2006-04-04
equatorial

AB57

Premium Member

said by pflog:

You're quoting me in the first quote and him in the second.

*edit* Or if you were asking the thread in general, nevermind.

No, you're right. I screwed up. (Maybe I really am nuts.)

Thanks for alerting me to that. I'm going to edit out that post.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

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said by SandShark5:

But, you're forgetting the 1998 incident. Sandusky admitted to university police he was taking showers with children. Paterno had to know about that because the next year, Sandusky, in the prime of his coaching career, the architect of Linebacker U and the heir apparent to Paterno suddenly retires never to coach again. Don't you find that the least bit strange? Then, in 2002, when the graduate assistant comes to Paterno, all Paterno felt obligated to do was call the AD without ever following up on what action was taken or, more importantly, never bothered to inquire as to who the young boy was or what help was offered to him? Paterno knew Sandusky was a pedophile since 1998 and never once bothered to do more than he was required to do under the law. All he cared about was football and his legacy.

I just don't see how Paterno can go to the police with some unsubstantiated claim of something he didn't witness. Its like me going to the police and saying, "I had a friend of mine come to me to tell me he saw another friend of mine doing something inappropriate with a little boy.". The police are going to not be interested in what I heard, they are going to be interested in what my friend saw. Which is why I think going to the campus authorities or the AD was the best option for Paterno. He reported what he heard to them and the AD was SUPPOSED to look into the claim and go to the authorities.

There is a BIG difference between witnessing an act and hearing about someone who witnessed an act. Then, on top of that, it wasn't like the guy said he was raping the boy. He was just doing something "inappropriate". Well, if he won't give details, its kind of hard to determine what the level of importance is.

C_9084
Kill The Socialists
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join:2001-03-19

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said by Nightfall:

Lets say you are the boss of a department. Someone comes to you and says they may have seen "inappropriate actions" between a man and a boy in the bathroom. You question the person and then you have a decision to make. With no evidence at all, do you go to the police? I would report it to HR and let HR take the witness aside and talk to them. I would encourage the witness to go to the police and talk it over with them. I haven't seen anything.

This is where the problem comes into play. The witness decided not to go to the police. The campus authorities did nothing. The leadership of Penn State just told Sandusky he couldn't bring boys into the locker room anymore.

If I asked HR what the result of the action was, they would tell me that the DA investigated and decided not to prosecute. Which is true back in 1998 when the DA said no.

at almost all large corporations HR would tell you exactly zero and that it is no longer your concern, irregardless of what actually ends up happening with the investigation

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by C_9084:

said by Nightfall:

Lets say you are the boss of a department. Someone comes to you and says they may have seen "inappropriate actions" between a man and a boy in the bathroom. You question the person and then you have a decision to make. With no evidence at all, do you go to the police? I would report it to HR and let HR take the witness aside and talk to them. I would encourage the witness to go to the police and talk it over with them. I haven't seen anything.

This is where the problem comes into play. The witness decided not to go to the police. The campus authorities did nothing. The leadership of Penn State just told Sandusky he couldn't bring boys into the locker room anymore.

If I asked HR what the result of the action was, they would tell me that the DA investigated and decided not to prosecute. Which is true back in 1998 when the DA said no.

at almost all large corporations HR would tell you exactly zero and that it is no longer your concern, irregardless of what actually ends up happening with the investigation

Still, HR would handle it. Or in this case the AD would handle it and he didn't.

I think that people are stuck on the fact that Paterno knew Sandusky was a scumbag. People are also assuming that the grad assistant told Paterno the same level of detail he told the grand jury. Paterno just said that the grad assistant told him that he saw "inappropriate actions" and that he didn't go into detail. Who is right here?

I believe the grad assistant is covering his ass because he is the guy who didnt' follow protocol. Either that or he stopped being a chicken about it. Either that or the university screwed him and this is his way of getting back.

C_9084
Kill The Socialists
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join:2001-03-19

C_9084

Premium Member

more like people are acting like paterno would announce at staff meetings that sandusky was a pepohile but don't go tell anyone we need to keep this a secret

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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FFH5

Premium Member

said by FFH5:

said by sailor:

said by Nightfall:

If Penn State hangs him out to dry, I am going to be really pissed off.

I bet he'll be fired within the next 48 hours.

Paterno won't be fired. He will announce his "retirement" which will be effective at the end of the season. And the President of the University will resign after the Board of Trustees meeting on Friday, where the Gov of Pa will take part, which is very unusual.

Next steps:
Interim President of Univ announced
Temporary athletic director named
Search starts for new Univ President
Search starts for permanent athletic director
Search starts for new Football Head Coach

Step 1 prediction comes true. Paterno to retire at end of season:
»www.cbsnews.com/8301-400 ··· tragedy/

Penn State football coach Joe Paterno will retire at the end of the season, his long and illustrious career brought down because he failed to do all he could about an allegation of child sex abuse against a former assistant.

Paterno decided to retire at age 84, in the middle of his 46th season with the Nittany Lions. He won 409 games, a record for major college football, but now, the grandfatherly coach known as "Joe Pa," who had painstakingly burnished a reputation for winning "the right way," leaves the only school he's ever coached in disgrace.

"That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can," Paterno said.

Next announcement when the President of Penn State steps down.

SandShark5
Long may you run
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I never sad Paterno should have gone to the police. I think he should have, but I didn't say that. What I asked was didn't you find it the least bit strange that Sandusky retired when he did, especially considering the incident in 1998? I have to believe Paterno knew about that incident or why else would he tell Sandusky he wasn't in line to become head coach? I think Paterno, either directly or indirectly, had something to do with convincing Sandusky to retire when he did.

Regarding the 2002 incident, Paterno should have taken more responsibility and asked more questions even though he wasn't "legally obligated" to do so. If someone came to me and told me a grown man was in the shower doing something "inappropriate" with a child, I'd damn sure want to know what he meant by that. Then, I would have gone to Sandusky personally and questioned him about the incident, especially since I knew he had a history of inappropriate behavior with children.

Nevertheless, Paterno announced his retirement - "...I wish I had done more."

fatness
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said by pflog:

It doesn't matter, that's my point. Even just "horsing around" in the shower naked with a young boy is plenty of details for him to have raised the red flag.

It sure is, I agree.
fatness

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said by drslash:

This is not your garden variety scandal like trinkets for tattoos at Ohio State or alleged recruiting violations with Cam Newton. This is bad stuff. My assumption is that cover ups are going on. If I had kids at Penn State I would want them out. If I was a donor I would never give another penny until the house is cleaned out and the school does some serious work with the community and abuse victims. Only a total blood letting and major PR moves by Penn State would begin to restore any level of trust.

I agree.

Sandusky's a monster. Paterno and everyone else let him continue to have access to their football facilities after he quit in 1999 or so until just recently, despite the allegations they knew of, despite the fact that he was bringing kids on campus. All those people in a position to report things and stop things did nothing. Nothing.

Penn State is going to lose students, athletes, donors, and support over this for a long time. The problem will have to be cleaned up by someone outside Penn State, because there's no one at PSU able to fix it now. They could have done so years ago, but they chose to keep a lid on things. I guess winning football games and having a good image was more important than kids getting molested and raped.

I wonder what kind of reception Paterno will get when he's introduced at Ohio State and at Wisconsin? There were drunken fights on the Penn State campus last night between students supporting Paterno and students wanting him gone. That's friendly turf for him compared to the rest of the world. Expect to see more PedState logos at the Ohio State and Wisconsin games.


fatness

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said by SandShark5:

I never sad Paterno should have gone to the police. I think he should have, but I didn't say that. What I asked was didn't you find it the least bit strange that Sandusky retired when he did, especially considering the incident in 1998? I have to believe Paterno knew about that incident or why else would he tell Sandusky he wasn't in line to become head coach? I think Paterno, either directly or indirectly, had something to do with convincing Sandusky to retire when he did.

Regarding the 2002 incident, Paterno should have taken more responsibility and asked more questions even though he wasn't "legally obligated" to do so. If someone came to me and told me a grown man was in the shower doing something "inappropriate" with a child, I'd damn sure want to know what he meant by that. Then, I would have gone to Sandusky personally and questioned him about the incident, especially since I knew he had a history of inappropriate behavior with children.

Nevertheless, Paterno announced his retirement - "...I wish I had done more."

There's a decent article saying much the same thing that you just said. Unfortunately the article was written in April of this year, before the grand jury finished up their charges and report, and people were just in denial then.
»www.timesonline.com/colu ··· ent-area
quote:
Then it seems reasonable to wonder: Did Penn State not make an issue of Sandusky's alleged behavior in 1998 in exchange for him walking away from the program at an age premature for most coaches? Did Penn State's considerable influence help get Sandusky off the hook?

Don't kid yourself. That could happen. Don't underestimate the power of Paterno and Penn State in central Pennsylvania when it comes to politicians, the police and the media.

In 1999, Penn State was rid of Sandusky. His rep was unblemished, which allowed him to continue running a charitable foundation that gave him access to underage males. To be a volunteer assistant with a high school football team, thus gaining access to underage males.

If Paterno and Penn State knew, but didn't act, instead facilitating Sandusky's untroubled retirement - are Paterno and Penn State responsible for untoward acts since committed by Sandusky? This is far from an outrageous hypothesis, especially given the convenient timeline.

Initially accused in 1998. Retires in 1999. Never coaches college football again. Sandusky was very successful at what he did. The architect of Linebacker U. Helped win national championships in 1982 and 1986. Recognized as college football's top assistant in 1986 and 1999.

Never any stories about Sandusky being pursued for a high-profile job. Never any rumors about him coming out of retirement.

But there's no shortage of stories and rumors about Penn State football sweeping problems under the rug, is there?

Why did college football let an accomplished coach like Sandusky walk away at 55? Why did he disappear into relative anonymity?

A grand jury, spurred by a complaint made by a 15-year-old boy in 2009, has been investigating Sandusky for 18 months. Witnesses include Paterno and Penn State athletic director Tim Curley. Interviewing Paterno about a subject like this had to have been one of the single most uncomfortable acts in the history of jurisprudence.

Plenty of questions remain yet unanswered. Potentially among them: What's more important, Penn State football or the welfare of a few kids?

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

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said by SandShark5:

I never sad Paterno should have gone to the police. I think he should have, but I didn't say that. What I asked was didn't you find it the least bit strange that Sandusky retired when he did, especially considering the incident in 1998? I have to believe Paterno knew about that incident or why else would he tell Sandusky he wasn't in line to become head coach? I think Paterno, either directly or indirectly, had something to do with convincing Sandusky to retire when he did.

Regarding the 2002 incident, Paterno should have taken more responsibility and asked more questions even though he wasn't "legally obligated" to do so. If someone came to me and told me a grown man was in the shower doing something "inappropriate" with a child, I'd damn sure want to know what he meant by that. Then, I would have gone to Sandusky personally and questioned him about the incident, especially since I knew he had a history of inappropriate behavior with children.

Nevertheless, Paterno announced his retirement - "...I wish I had done more."

In 1998, the DA involved cleared Sandusky of all charges. If I was Paterno and I heard about that, I would probably absolve him in my mind as well. After all, there was a report and the DA cleared Sandusky. As for Sandusky retiring early, Paterno may have not known what the deal was. How many times has someone around the office retired and you have to wonder if it was forced or not?

I agree on the 2002 incident, but that was the point. Paterno was told something "inappropriate" happened. I am sure he pressured, but the grad assistant wasn't forthcoming with the details at the time. He sure was forthcoming in the grand jury report, and that chaps my ass, but thats another story. You can bet he did probably go to Sandusky and ask about it, to which Sandusky probably told him it was false.

What do you do next? Do you call the police? Go to the AD like he did? That is the conundrum that everyone is debating right now. I believe Paterno did all he could considering the information he had.

If the grad assistant had the balls to come to Paterno and say that he was having anal sex with the boy or actually confronted Sandusky or called the police himself, then this whole situation would have been solved back in 2002. What about the janitor that saw this? How can he live with himself knowing that Sandusky was molesting a child?

Point is this, Paterno should be the last person anyone should be blaming in this situation.

fatness
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fatness

quote:
Penn State University President Graham Spanier will either resign or be voted out by the end of today, a source close to the board of trustees told The Express-Times.
»www.lehighvalleylive.com ··· =twitter
fatness

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said by Nightfall:

Point is this, Paterno should be the last person anyone should be blaming in this situation.

People above Paterno in the chain of command have been indicted or are being forced out. The grad assistant (who kept getting promoted by the way) didn't go to the police and is a scumbag for not doing it. You can't say those above Paterno and below him are criminals or scum, and exempt Paterno. He's as much a part of the problem as the rest of them. It's just jarring because of his genial, squeaky clean image over so many years. But he didn't report something he obviously should have reported to the police, and no words about 'chain of command' or 'did all he could do' excuse that.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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said by fatness:

said by pflog:

It doesn't matter, that's my point. Even just "horsing around" in the shower naked with a young boy is plenty of details for him to have raised the red flag.

It sure is, I agree.

I think what people are not putting together is the fact that Sandusky was a trusted member of the coaching staff. He had no history of this kind of thing. The only incident in 1998 resulted in the DA dropping all charges. So most of the Penn State officials had probably absolved Sandusky in their minds.

If Paterno heard from the grad assistant that he saw something "inappropriate" but doesn't go into detail, what is Paterno supposed to do? He isn't given the information in the grand jury report, but just "inappropriate". That really doesn't elaborate on anything. Sure, Paterno can urge him to go to the police, but Paterno calling the police giving that information isn't going to result in anything happening. Which is why he went to the AD and asked them to look into it.

I just don't understand the hate toward Paterno. I do understand the hate against the others at Penn State who dropped the ball on this. I especially have a lot of rage towards the grad assistant who didn't grow the balls to call the police or say these things until the grand jury testimony. I also have a great deal of rage towards the janitor who also saw this and did nothing.

fatness
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fatness

After the 1998 incident, Penn State told Sandusky he couldn't be the next head coach there. They also made a special retirement plan available for him, effectively paying him to resign.
quote:
Sandusky said he elected to make the announcement before the season to take advantage of a retirement option available to long-time Penn State employees only for a limited time.
»www.psu.edu/ur/archives/ ··· ngs.html

After that Penn State continued letting Sandusky have full access to their football facilities, including bringing kids on their campus, until very recently.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

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said by fatness:

said by Nightfall:

Point is this, Paterno should be the last person anyone should be blaming in this situation.

People above Paterno in the chain of command have been indicted or are being forced out. The grad assistant (who kept getting promoted by the way) didn't go to the police and is a scumbag for not doing it. You can't say those above Paterno and below him are criminals or scum, and exempt Paterno. He's as much a part of the problem as the rest of them. It's just jarring because of his genial, squeaky clean image over so many years. But he didn't report something he obviously should have reported to the police, and no words about 'chain of command' or 'did all he could do' excuse that.

I didn't mention chain of command. I believe, given the information he was given at the time, he did all he could do without sounding like a senile old man. Besides, if he made a stink over this in 2002 and was wrong, he would have lost his job. Its very easy to look in hindsight and say he made the wrong choice. Its very difficult to make a decision that may result in your job being terminated if you are wrong.
drslash (banned)
Goya Asma
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Marion, IA

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said by Nightfall:

Point is this, Paterno should be the last person anyone should be blaming in this situation.

It is unfortunate but the level of distrust at the institution can probably only be restored if the house is cleaned. When trust is violated at this level, then the school will suffer financially through lost students and donations. Cynical but true, the money drives the school. Penn State recruits students and solicits donations based on the school's history, tradition, and integrity. All of that is tarnished now. The innocent and guilty should be let go so rebuilding can begin.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by drslash:

said by Nightfall:

Point is this, Paterno should be the last person anyone should be blaming in this situation.

It is unfortunate but the level of distrust at the institution can probably only be restored if the house is cleaned. When trust is violated at this level, then the school will suffer financially through lost students and donations. Cynical but true, the money drives the school. Penn State recruits students and solicits donations based on the school's history, tradition, and integrity. All of that is tarnished now. The innocent and guilty should be let go so rebuilding can begin.

Now that, I can agree with.

fatness
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fatness

You can't make this stuff up.
quote:
The Penn State Creamery has removed the "Sandusky Blitz" ice cream flavor, named after former PSU assistant coach Jerry Sandusky, from its shelves and online menu, the Daily Collegian first reported yesterday.

Prior to the flavor's removal from the creamery website, The Big Lead got a screen grab of the ingredients. Sandusky Blitz was described as a "banana-flavored ice cream with chocolate-covered peanuts and caramel swirl."
»www.pennlive.com/midstat ··· err.html

AB57
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said by Nightfall:

In 1998, the DA involved cleared Sandusky of all charges. If I was Paterno and I heard about that, I would probably absolve him in my mind as well.

The DA's office didn't "clear Sandusky of all charges", they just decided not to prosecute.

My belief is that the general feeling among most people is that once someone has been accused of child molestation, that person is never quite trusted or looked upon in the same way ever again. The accusation all by itself is one big stigma-- the ultimate truth or no of the accusation often being irrelevant. The stink of the accusation lingers on.

So, I don't see how you so easily find Paterno to have 'absolved Sandusky in his mind' because Sandusky told him "honest injun, I didn't do it". Well, O.J. told people he didn't do it either.

I agree on the 2002 incident, but that was the point. Paterno was told something "inappropriate" happened. I am sure he pressured, but the grad assistant wasn't forthcoming with the details at the time.

You sure seem to know how that conversation went down and exactly how detailed the descriptions were.

And so that's now the second incident Paterno's been alerted to.
Still time to have Sandusky deny it, 'absolve him in his mind', then go ahead and report it to his boss just as a matter of following protocol, and leave it at that?

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
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Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

How many times have we seen people be falsely accused of child molestation? Gee, a simple google search reveals more than a few hits. I suppose if someone accuses you of child molestation, would you want your friends to have the same mindset? Just a thought.

I go by what I have read. Apparently, from numerous news sources, the word "inappropriate" was used in 2002. Rape was not used. Sodomizing a child wasn't used. Screwing a kid in the ass wasn't used. Its like I witness a rape in the workplace, go to my boss, and say I just saw something "inappropriate" between two coworkers. My boss presses me and I say nothing about rape. Does my boss report that to the police or does he go to HR and tell them what I have said?

I firmly believe that if Paterno was told, "Hey, I just saw Sandusky sodimizing a child", then this whole situation would have been taken care of in 2002. Paterno has a history of doing the right thing and philanthropy for the college and the community. Yet people believe the scumbag grad assistant over Paterno?

Instead, the grad assistant decided till the grand jury to grow some balls.

AB57
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AB57

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said by Nightfall:

I suppose if someone accuses you of child molestation, would you want your friends to have the same mindset? Just a thought.

It's not a matter of what I would want. It's a matter of how do those people now perceive me?
I'm accused of that particular crime-- not robbing banks or burglary. The stigma attached to child molestation is much greater and different from any stigma attached to 'ordinary' crimes, and the legal "innocent until proven guilty" pulls no sway in the court of public opinion.
My friends may not be as quick to condemn, yet they're still part of the public.

I firmly believe that if Paterno was told, "Hey, I just saw Sandusky sodimizing a child", then this whole situation would have been taken care of in 2002. Paterno has a history of doing the right thing and philanthropy for the college and the community. Yet people believe the scumbag grad assistant over Paterno?

Instead, the grad assistant decided till the grand jury to grow some balls.

Paterno had then twice learned that Sandusky had "done something inappropriate", or at least was being accused of it.
But "inappropriate" by itself for the second time around still wouldn't be enough wood to start a fire, but changing it to "actively engaged in anal sex" would've put Joe aflame with action?
Does Joe always misconstrue any usage of the word "inappropriate"?

We're also not talking about the grad assistant here, who has his own share guilt in this. Percentage irrelevant.
AB57

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said by fatness:

»www.timesonline.com/colu ··· ent-area

quote:
Never any stories about Sandusky being pursued for a high-profile job. Never any rumors about him coming out of retirement.

He was, however, offered a board position at NAMBLA.

I hear Sandusky's already announced his search for the real molester.
He'll be concentrating it on orphanages, playgrounds, middle schools, etc.

FFH5
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Urban Meyer floats to the top of the list of Paterno replacements.
»sportsillustrated.cnn.co ··· dex.html

Above link also lists a few more possibles.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
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Your friends wouldn't be quick to condemn, and neither were Sandusky's friends as a result. Is that the best thing? I believe you are innocent until proven guilty. Its easy to look in hindsight and say you were right. Just as I am sure your friends would say they knew all along you were a child molester if you were convicted.

Communication is a wonderful thing. I honestly believe that being told "inappropriate" is much different than "anal sex with a child". "Inappropriate" gets a trip to the AD. Anal sex with a child means a mandatory call to the police. Guess what? The chicken shit grad assistant is going to cooperate at that point.

I have said my piece, but just to reiterate....

Paterno should really take no blame in this, but he will. Its like driving down a road and a person walks out in the road and you hit him. You didn't see it coming, but you can bet Paterno feels a lot of sadness about this and a lot of responsibility. The only people calling for his head, IMHO, are those that are not looking at the whole picture. Either that or they are biased against Penn State or against Paterno. I am not a Penn State fan or a die hard fan of Paterno's. Yet, from just what I have read, I see no fault at all when it comes to him. Paterno is doing the right thing by retiring at the end of the season though. Penn State needs to start fresh, and a fresh rebuild is the way to go.

Also, there is a lot of blame being passed around, all for a trial that hasn't started yet and other truths that haven't been discovered. In about 3-6 months, there will be a much clearer picture. Just like in 3-6 years it will be even more clear.

So I guess I will have to agree to disagree with most people here.

Alakar
Facts do not cease to exist when ignored
join:2001-03-23
Milwaukee, WI

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Joe Pa's been fired. News conference going on now. Seen a story on CNN/SI saying he could face criminal charges.

»sportsillustrated.cnn.co ··· =BrkNews

rolfp
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said by Nightfall:

it wasn't like the guy said he was raping the boy. He was just doing something "inappropriate". Well, if he won't give details, its kind of hard to determine what the level of importance is.

»cbschicago.files.wordpre ··· ment.pdf

Grand Jury report says graduate assistant saw Sandusky having anal intercourse in the locker room shower with a boy whose age he estimated to be 10 years. Grand Jury report says graduate assistant told his dad, who told him to promptly report to Paterno. "The next morning, a Saturday, the graduate assistant telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno's home, where he reported what he had seen." [..] "Approximately one and a half weeks later, the graduate assistant was called to a meeting with Penn State Athletic Director Curley and Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz ("Schultz"). The graduate assistant reported to Curley and Schultz that he had witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the Lasch Building showers." [..] "The Grand Jury finds the graduate assistant's testimony to be extremely credible."

.....I've been trying to figure out where you get your assertions about who said what to whom when and WTF you mean by graduate assistant needing to grow some balls or similar.



FFH5
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I am surprised that they didn't let Paterno finish season, but FoxNews say both Paterno & the Univ President have been fired effective immediately.

Rodney Erickson will serve as interim school president, and defensive coordinator Tom Bradley as interim coach