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N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by FFH:

It is worth repeating that it is the customers of these companies who pay the taxes thru higher prices. Anyone cheering for corporations paying higher taxes are really just cheering to pay more taxes themselves - unless you are one of those very few people who never buy any product or service.

See, now that's specious reasoning IMHO. Especially if the corporation is turning a decent profit.

Consumers pay what the MARKET will bear, regardless of the structure of the corporate tax code. If a corporation can't provide a service at a competitive price, the consumer goes elsewhere.

The real benefit of the current tax structure is to the SHAREHOLDER, and not to the CONSUMER. Corporations aren't going to charge me less just because their taxes are lower. They're going to charge the maximum amount they think they can for their product. The ultimate driving force here is not to charge less, or even pay less taxes, but to maximize profit. The obvious (and some would say proper) primary goal of the corporation.

I seriously doubt Verizon, GE, and Boeing are spending billions on lobbyists in the interests of end consumers like you and me.

These corporations enjoy the protections of the rule of law (both patent law & contract law via the courts). They have a duty to contribute SOMETHING to society.

I'm not saying tax the rich to feed the poor until their "int no rich no more", but pay SOMETHING.

Of course, I could pay nothing in taxes if I had a herd of corporate lawyers & lobbyists too. But since I'm just one person with one vote I have no real voice in this country anymore.

Money talks, bullshit (and the individual) walks.
--
Petty people are disproportionally corrupted by petty power

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by N3OGH:

I'm not saying tax the rich to feed the poor until their "int no rich no more", but pay SOMETHING.

Exactly. I'd love to say that the 47% of people who paid no federal income tax. It isn't fair that all of these people get a free ride at the expense of everyone who paid something.
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

I LOVE how people throw that one out there all the time without doing their own research first.

It's not 47% of people, it's 47% of all those who filed as being single who don't pay any federal income tax.

Along with that, 38% of joint filers will pay no federal income tax, and 72% of those who file as "head of household" end up owing no federal income taxes.

Of course these statistics are taken from a year that was smack dab in the middle of a recession, where all kinds of tax breaks were thrown out there to try and "stimulate" the economy. An effort that was obviously an epic fail, but that's a topic for another time.

On it's surface, the number sounds grotesque, but in fact it's the facts taken and twisted into a talking point to serve an agenda. Something I used to think only the left did.

Now I know they all do it......
--
Petty people are disproportionally corrupted by petty power

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by N3OGH:

I LOVE how people throw that one out there all the time without doing their own research first.

It's not 47% of people, it's 47% of all those who filed as being single who don't pay any federal income tax.

Along with that, 38% of joint filers will pay no federal income tax, and 72% of those who file as "head of household" end up owing no federal income taxes.

Wow. The problem is much worse than I knew it to be. All of these people should be paying something. Every last one of them.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

I'm assuming this is sarcasm.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by Thaler:

I'm assuming this is sarcasm.

Nope. I am very serious. Why should anyone get a free ride? Even if it is $1 or $10 or so... pay something and have some skin in the game.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

Thaler
Premium
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Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by pnh102:

Nope. I am very serious. Why should anyone get a free ride? Even if it is $1 or $10 or so... pay something and have some skin in the game.

So for the people below the poverty line and struggling to feed themselves, they should cough up something at the same rate proportionally as a billionaire? Also, I wouldn't call struggling to pay rent & food exactly a "free ride".

I guess they could pay their taxes at the end of the year with lint, but that's just a silly concept to begin with.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by Thaler:

So for the people below the poverty line and struggling to feed themselves, they should cough up something at the same rate proportionally as a billionaire? Also, I wouldn't call struggling to pay rent & food exactly a "free ride".

It doesn't have to be that high. Just something to make them remember that government is not free.

Personally I support a form of national retail non-VAT sales tax (the FairTax or something like it) to accomplish this. Under such a system, assuming all forms of federal income and payroll taxes are abolished, it will be assured that everyone pays something. Those who buy more pay more, those who buy less pay less. What could be more fair?
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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join:2011-08-11
NYC
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said by pnh102:

All of these people should be paying something. Every last one of them.

Ridiculous. People who are so poor that they collect from the system should then pay some of it back? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The top 1% should be taxed heavily... the 99% shouldn't pay anything.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by CXM_Splicer:

The top 1% should be taxed heavily... the 99% shouldn't pay anything.

Please stop with this arbitrary 1% whining. Perhaps you should focus your efforts on fixing the tax code, reducing government waste and spending, and growing our economy. The result of being financially successful shouldn't be a punishment.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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NYC
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

You are right, 1% is arbitrary... we could make it 1.5% if you prefer. I would LOVE to revise the tax code and I have already explained how to grow the economy. The result of being a hard worker shouldn't be poverty.
openbox9
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Germany
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by CXM_Splicer:

You are right, 1% is arbitrary... we could make it 1.5% if you prefer.

Now your ignorance is shining through.
said by CXM_Splicer:

The result of being a hard worker shouldn't be poverty.

Never suggested that it should be.

Your suggestion to grow the economy is? How about the tax code revision?
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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join:2011-08-11
NYC
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

>Now your ignorance is shining through.

Gee thanks If your position is considered 'educated' then I would much rather be ignorant. I haven't seen anything but criticism from you, perhaps a suggestion of how we can do things differently to better the current situation?

>Never suggested that it should be.

And yet that is exactly the direction we are heading. Forgiving corporate tax (more than we already do) will make the situation worse. That is glaringly obvious.

Your suggestion to grow the economy is? How about the tax code revision?

Both are already in this thread... please read back.
openbox9
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Germany
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by CXM_Splicer:

I haven't seen anything but criticism from you, perhaps a suggestion of how we can do things differently to better the current situation?

Sure, cut spending by making hard choices on discretionary and entitlements. Incentivize businesses to bring jobs back to the states and deter future exportation of such jobs. Embrace the plentiful energy resources in the US. Significantly reduce our nation building exercises. Lower statutory tax rates for everyone (including those evil businesses) while closing loopholes like the one that allowed me to realize a tax benefit last year. Fix the short term capital gains tax and hedge fund tax rates. Fix the ability to leverage to the hilt. Stop throwing money at winless efforts like the "war on drugs" and instead regulate and tax drugs similar to tobacco products. Stop trying to pretend that everyone can afford a house, including the one they may be living in. Tighten lending practices and speculation. I can go on, but you should be able to get the idea.
said by CXM_Splicer:

Forgiving corporate tax (more than we already do) will make the situation worse. That is glaringly obvious.

Hardly obvious at all. Businesses already have a hefty tax burden, often being taxed twice. Corporations should be taxed at the same level as everyone else...once the loopholes have been shored up.
said by CXM_Splicer:

Both are already in this thread... please read back.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were serious with this as being your solution, especially if you're only cutting one discretionary expenditure by the Fed. Raising taxes isn't the answer.

The financial solution is very simple: very high taxes on the top 1%, even higher corporate taxes, and a cut in military spending to 20% of its current value.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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NYC
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

>Sure, cut spending by making hard choices on discretionary and entitlements.

Agreed. The hardest choice (and most excessive) is defense. In fact, almost none of the politicians ever mention it. By 'entitlements' I would mean subsidies to big business (primarily energy companies). Since the primary 'energy' users are industry & commercial, these subsidies are in fact going disproportionally to them... the entities that need them the least.

>Incentivize businesses to bring jobs back to the states and deter future exportation of such jobs.

Yes, as long as those incentives don't reduce tax income or are otherwise detrimental to the system as a whole. The mass movement of work to other countries was (is) a major cause of our predicament.

>Embrace the plentiful energy resources in the US. Significantly reduce our nation building exercises.

Yes, especially renewable energy. Although many claim it is still too expensive, when compared to energy today without the subsidies it becomes feasible. In order to expedite the reduction of nation building, I would say that renewable energy should be subsidized to speed up the shift to it, then the subsidy terminated when a certain threshold is reached (which is admittedly still in the future).

>Lower statutory tax rates for everyone (including those evil businesses) while closing loopholes like the one that allowed me to realize a tax benefit last year. Fix the short term capital gains tax and hedge fund tax rates. Fix the ability to leverage to the hilt. Stop throwing money at winless efforts like the "war on drugs" and instead regulate and tax drugs similar to tobacco products.

All agreed except for lowering of statutory tax rates, at least not yet. Unfortunately, deficit spending for so long has us in a very bad position... not far off from Greece if it continues. If I knew it would (along with the other changes) bring us in the right direction, I would even be willing to pay MORE taxes. The DEA is probably the first agency I would eliminate too.

>Stop trying to pretend that everyone can afford a house, including the one they may be living in. Tighten lending practices and speculation.

Yes. Unfortunately, it is mostly the lending markets that push this idea. Strange that the banks charge us interest on our own money system and then come to us for a 0% interest loan when they need to be bailed out.

>I can go on, but you should be able to get the idea.

Oh I definitely get it. I often find that the left and the right agree on MANY things in principal, although the approach might be different. Without changing the political system I don't thing either approach will be realized.
openbox9
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join:2004-01-26
Germany
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by CXM_Splicer:

By 'entitlements' I would mean subsidies to big business (primarily energy companies).

No, entitlement expenditures are those that don't require an appropriation bill to be passed every year. Think Medicare, Social Security, pensions, etc. Entitlement spending consumes a larger portion of revenue than discretionary spending, hence why it must be part of the equation.
said by CXM_Splicer:

Yes, especially renewable energy.

No, renewable isn't cost effective yet. We have plenty of oil and natural gas within are borders to bridge us until renewable is ready.
said by CXM_Splicer:

All agreed except for lowering of statutory tax rates, at least not yet.

I don't understand the resistance to lowering taxes along with spending to spur economic growth. I guess that's where the left and right diverge.
said by CXM_Splicer:

Yes. Unfortunately, it is mostly the lending markets that push this idea.

Don't forget the fed gov encouraging the idea that everyone deserves a home as part of the American dream and the regulators pushing it. The lenders were simply making money, the "protectors" encouraged it.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

>No, entitlement expenditures are those that don't require an appropriation bill to be passed every year. Think Medicare, Social Security, pensions, etc. Entitlement spending consumes a larger portion of revenue than discretionary spending, hence why it must be part of the equation.

Yes, I am aware of entitlements vs mandatory spending. The point I was making is that entitlement expenditure is more important than the subsidies that business feels 'entitled' to... hence my quotes. Certainly a revamping of the healthcare system will lower that part of the pie but I wouldn't look for major cuts to mandatory spending.

>No, renewable isn't cost effective yet.

It is when you factor in moving oil subsidies to the renewable industry AND the current political and environmental benefits. There is really no excuse for NOT pushing hard in the renewable direction. It is in our best interests.

>I don't understand the resistance to lowering taxes along with spending to spur economic growth.

Because the numbers simply don't work. At our current level of debt if spending dropped to $0 (very unlikely) the debt & its compounding interest would take over 6 years to pay off. Also, since people are living longer mandatory spending is higher. This simply requires higher taxes then when they were dropping dead. Since the corporations want to pay less (and shouldn't pay anything according to some people) you and I must pay more.
openbox9
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Germany
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by CXM_Splicer:

but I wouldn't look for major cuts to mandatory spending.

And therein lies the problem. It's a matter of time before we wind up in a similar situation as to what several countries in the EU are facing.
said by CXM_Splicer:

There is really no excuse for NOT pushing hard in the renewable direction. It is in our best interests.

And using our existing oil and natural gas to get us to a point where renewable energy works. That was my point.
said by CXM_Splicer:

Also, since people are living longer mandatory spending is higher. This simply requires higher taxes then when they were dropping dead.

Or spending less

Thaler
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Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
Problem is, wherever you draw the border between tax & taxless, there would be a huge problem. Using your 1% example, that means if I'm in the top 1.1%, I pay no tax. The moment I cross over to the 1% - boom, huge tax hit.

In that model, your citizens had better either be pretty-rich-but-not-quite-enough, or Monopoly-man-super-rich. If your income puts you between these two camps, prepare for taxes to punish you harder than if you were a 1.1%-er.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

>Problem is, wherever you draw the border between tax & taxless, there would be a huge problem.

Yes, you are right. The 1% cutoff is not a hard cutoff but a generalization. And more to the thread topic, it is the platry corporation taxes I think should be higher... I am including them in the 1%.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD
said by CXM_Splicer:

Ridiculous. People who are so poor that they collect from the system should then pay some of it back? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The top 1% should be taxed heavily... the 99% shouldn't pay anything.

Sorry, but your second sentence shows you really have no clue about who pays the bills in this country. The top 1% pay a huge chunk of the taxes.

And yes, I sincerely believe that everyone should pay something in tax. We have rights and responsibilities in this country. Paying taxes sucks, but it is a responsibility. If the job of government is to do things that benefit people collectively, then why shouldn't that burden be spread to everyone?
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unsub

join:2000-06-21
Newton Upper Falls, MA

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

How can you not see that the reason that the top 1% pay so large of a share is because they have a obscenely disproportionate amount of the wealth.

We have a wealth disparity in this country that we haven't seen in a hundred years.

The gap is so wide that taxing the bottom 50% of the country would be absolutely meaningless and would generate no income.

We have lowered the taxes on the mega rich so drastically over the last 20 years that we have created an absolute nightmare.

I don't think you fully appreciate just how bad it is out there.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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said by pnh102:

Sorry, but your second sentence shows you really have no clue about who pays the bills in this country. The top 1% pay a huge chunk of the taxes.

Actually, I am quite well aware. Here is the chart from Wikipedia
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._···2007.png

That blue stuff... that is from income taxes. That is the portion that you hear about when all the right wing anti-tax people start screaming that the top 1% pays 40% of the taxes. There are TONS of websites dedicated to making this point. Guess who pays the other 60%!! That's right... the bottom 99% pay MOST of the federal income tax revenue.

The green is social security. Since this is a capped tax, the top 1% pay an extremely disproportionately LOW percentage of this. It falls almost entirely on the backs of the middle class.

The red part, corporate income taxes which, if you believe Darth, the corporations don't even pay.... the customers do. A lowly 9%?! Are you F'ing kidding me?!?!?

said by pnh102:

And yes, I sincerely believe that everyone should pay something in tax. We have rights and responsibilities in this country. Paying taxes sucks, but it is a responsibility. If the job of government is to do things that benefit people collectively, then why shouldn't that burden be spread to everyone?

Well, we are very close on this one. I would modify it slightly in that the burden should be spread proportionally depending on how much you benefit. The people and corporations that accumulated great wealth from this system should be the primary supporters of it. Instead of paying into it, they pay to change it so they can pay less into it. Out of greed, they destroy the very system that created them. The people who get screwed by the system should not be paying into it but should be paid by it... in my opinion, they are already 'feeling the sting' and should not be further burdened by being forced to pay for a system that benefits the super rich and corporations. People like to take this idea and work it into 'Why should these lazy people be rewarded for doing NOTHING!!!' Unfortunately it is not reality. MOST of the people are in their situation due to hardship... not personal choice. I can assure you, no one strives to live in subsidized housing on food stamps. It is a meager existence... not 'high on the hog'.

amarryat
Verizon FiOS

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Marshfield, MA
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Talk about unfair.

Surely as educated on this topic as you seem to be, you have seen the numbers. If all income over $250k were taxed at 100%, therefore no one takes home any more than $250k (minus the taxes, say 35%), our deficit would still be almost a trillion dollars.

This indicates that the taxes aren't the problem. It's the spending. It needs to be changed in a big way. Taxing the middle and upper classes, even at 100% doesn't come close to solving the problems.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

>This indicates that the taxes aren't the problem. It's the spending.

I would say it is both. There is no doubt that spending needs to be cut but the current areas being focused on are not only detrimental to the system itself but also have minuscule effect on the problem as a whole. Defense spending accounts for more than half of the budget (»www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
) and needs to be curtailed dramatically. There is absolutely no reason for the US to spend almost six times that of the next biggest spender, China. (»www.rickety.us/2011/06/2010-defe···country/)

Combine that with realistic tax situation and yes, we will be well on our way to solving the problems.

Rogue Wolf
Mourns the Loss of lilhurricane

join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY
said by pnh102:

said by N3OGH:

I LOVE how people throw that one out there all the time without doing their own research first.

It's not 47% of people, it's 47% of all those who filed as being single who don't pay any federal income tax.

Along with that, 38% of joint filers will pay no federal income tax, and 72% of those who file as "head of household" end up owing no federal income taxes.

Wow. The problem is much worse than I knew it to be. All of these people should be paying something. Every last one of them.

So you can do it one of two ways.

1. Tax them some trivial amount- a lot of people say one dollar. You end up spending more for enforcement, collection and tracking than you gain.

2. You tax them a significant amount of their income to make it worth the effort, which for quite a few people who are already barely holding on would prove ruinous.

Waste money for pointless symbolism, or put no small amount of already-poor people on the streets. Which do you choose?
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by Rogue Wolf:

1. Tax them some trivial amount- a lot of people say one dollar. You end up spending more for enforcement, collection and tracking than you gain.

Well government never was intended to run as a profit.
said by Rogue Wolf:

2. You tax them a significant amount of their income to make it worth the effort, which for quite a few people who are already barely holding on would prove ruinous.

Indeed. The whole point is for everyone to feel a sting.
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

Thaler
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Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

said by pnh102:

said by Rogue Wolf:

2. You tax them a significant amount of their income to make it worth the effort, which for quite a few people who are already barely holding on would prove ruinous.

Indeed. The whole point is for everyone to feel a sting.

Sales tax alone at that income level is a hard sting.
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tyng98

@embarqhsd.net

Re: Worth repeating - corporations don't pay taxes-customers do

I'd love to say that the 47% of people who paid no federal income tax. It isn't fair that all of these people get a free ride at the expense of everyone who paid something.

I find it interesting in the discussion that we are constantly told 47% pay no federal income tax, leaving the impression that the 47% are freeloaders.

Why should only federal income tax be considered, leaving out other federal and all state and local taxes. Perhaps Republicans do this deliberately because these other taxes tend to be highly regressive. That is, these taxes fall disproportionately on lower income families.

In fact, when you consider federal, state, and local taxes the bottom 20% of families pay 16% of their less then $15,000 annual income in taxes leaving them with less then with $12,000 per year. The top 1% pay 31% of their more then $1,500,000 in taxes leaving them with $1,000,00 per year.

The point is, even though low income groups pay low federal income taxes they pay a lot of taxes and clearly are not "deadbeats" or "freeloaders".