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JB9
Stay Gold
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join:2009-05-14

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Re: [Raiding] DragonSoul Raid Progression Thread (4.3)

Well that's a corrupt GM who is not using the EP/GP system correct, giving the rest of us that run it fair a bad reputation.

I passed on all non LFR loot as I'm waiting on sidelines on if I'm swapping to my druid or not.

This is fine as I'm in all heroic FL gear already so I won't be missing out on much of gear upgrades when the items are only slightly better. (LFR loot may even be downgrades)
Madman26
join:2011-05-17
Edison, NJ

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Was just told last night by my raid group that they were going to try a replacement for me. Pretty bummed out, but I'll get over it. As a hunter I guess they felt I was falling behind in dps too much. I personally also felt like I was suddenly struggling to keep up, but was hoping that would change with the new tier bonuses among other things. I hate making excuses, I'm just not sure what I could do differently there, playing a class that just isn't scaling all that well by comparison.

survi
@bellaliant.net

survi

Anon

Did you try Survival? It's way better then marks now.

CpnObvious
join:2010-05-05
Alexandria, VA

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Mad, if you're willing to discuss what is pretty clearly a painful situation, can I ask what kind of dps numbers you and your raidmates were putting out?

Treebark
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join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC

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It is not way better. Well not from World of Logs.
Slydermv
join:2010-03-11
Thunder Bay, ON

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If it's anything like previous tiers, Survival put out more consistent damage, but when the moons aligned, MM could put out higher damage.

With the buffs to explosive, depending on the fight, if I was still playing I'd likely play survival exclusively.

But with everything being so close, pick what spec you're most comfortable with as always.
Madman26
join:2011-05-17
Edison, NJ

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I'm at work right now, so I'll try to see what kind of logs I can dig up when I get home to give an idea.

I raid 10 man.

Shadow Priest - Hunter - Rogue - Warrior - Mage

Ever since we started doing heroic Firelands and I was picking up more gear from there I felt as though my DPS was not increasing the way I thought it should. Our Shadow Priest finally got his legendary on about the week before Dragon Soul was released.

The first night I noticed that the warrior and the rogue's dps had jumped up. Like, by at least 3k each. The Shadow Priest, obviously with the staff, doing much better. The mage always doing well, went fire and it got even better, yet my dps was pretty much just stagnant.

I'm not really sure if it is a skill thing or what. Judging from what I've read, hunters are not in a good place right now and honestly, I can't complain about them surpassing me, because from what I know, they *should* be at this point.

I'm at work right now, so I'll try to see what kind of logs I can dig up when I get home to give an idea.

JB9
Stay Gold
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join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

Almost had Deathwing last night. Having to use 2 cooldowns to eat an impale to only have RNG decide if I live or not is fcking stupid.
On 2 separate attempts, impale incoming.. I hit barkskin+frenzy rejuve; splat. I had 90%~ ish life; not enough. Have to shuffle tanks so I can use barkskin and survival instincts I guess huh.

Not that hard of a fight, if I was healing it probably would be dead; less than ideal 10 man setup w/o my shaman >;|

Treebark
Premium Member
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC

Treebark

Premium Member

Hunter pet intervene? Barrier, Pain Sup? Sucks that one boss ability can gimp a tank that much.

JB9
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join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

It only happened when the bolt came out and I was likely out of range for any CD. One time I called out for a hand of sac or PS they were either ranged or on CD.

Seems a druid is not that great of a tank for this fight, 2 paladins would probably make it LoL ezmode w/ 2x DGs. (WTB 4 pc). It's doable, just like I said it will require more tank swappage, which should be doable as you can alternate tanks and have enough CDs with no problem.
djlar
join:2009-04-23
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Ended up in a 10% wipe at MoDW, fight is so long and damage so high.. feels like Rag pre-nerf.. any mistake in 10 man is a wipe..

CpnObvious
join:2010-05-05
Alexandria, VA

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said by Madman26:

Ever since we started doing heroic Firelands and I was picking up more gear from there I felt as though my DPS was not increasing the way I thought it should. Our Shadow Priest finally got his legendary on about the week before Dragon Soul was released.

The first night I noticed that the warrior and the rogue's dps had jumped up. Like, by at least 3k each. The Shadow Priest, obviously with the staff, doing much better. The mage always doing well, went fire and it got even better, yet my dps was pretty much just stagnant.

Ow. You're up against a legendary caster, the FoTM OP caster spec, and two melee that just got a 10 percent buff. That's rough. For that matter, the rogue will only get better if he got upgrades from the double-397's already from the legendary quest.

Really, with that mix, I'd expect you to be mid-pack on high-movement fights and at the bottom with the warrior on tunneling fights. Deep wounds was bugged high for the first couple days of the patch, so if you raided tues/wed, the warrior had an unfair advantage. They've hotfixed that, so if you survive another week you might place better.
said by Treebark:

It is not way better. Well not from World of Logs.

WoL seems unreliable to me right now. I pulled SV ranks on more than half our kills last week, including a fight that I died on and one I had my pet on "passive" for the first 1/3 of the fight by accident. This tells me there's few really *good* hunters that have switched to SV yet.

That said, I"d agree SV isn't "way better" than MM. They're close, with MM slightly ahead all things being equal. In a 10 man environment I'd recommend playing whichever you have better buffs for. In Mad's case, it sounds like he might not have a melee haste buff- that'd pretty much automatically mean he'd probably be better off playing SV. I'd have to know the full raid comp to be sure, though.

Edit: Heh, I realize I'm getting way into class-specific geekery... Mad, if you wanna geek this out, we probably ought to take it over to the hunter thread.
Arsinic
join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA

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JB, try 1 tanking it. We were making decent headway with 1 prot pally and 2 healers (double Holy pally) eventually though mana ran low and cd's werent always there when the tnak needed them. We had swapped to 3 heals(could have done with 1 holy pal 1 other heal i believe) but this method was how we landed our kill.

Granted we had 5 sub 2% wipes(1 at 200k) honestly the 2 tank think is not needed in certain comps. By going 1 tank 3 heal we changed our platform order though. Our kill went Green, Red, Yellow, Blue for aspect buffs. I'd also say that the aoe dmg deathwing does that ramps up the lower his health is seems a bit brutal. That was the cause of our low % wipes everytime. He'd be at 3-4%ish on second set of the shrapnel tentacles, and by time they died the big adds came otu we'd try to burn him, but the tank would get gibbed even in the time zine thing. I'm sure it was the healers fault as they'd all swap to tank heals then and raid would die, or theyd all raid heal and tank would die. But I'd think 2 healing that part may be tough. I'll have to hope the pug i was in last week can do 8/8 instead of 6/8 this week.

JB9
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join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

If we don't get it in 25s this week (we only raid 9hrs of 25s) I will suggest that.
djlar
join:2009-04-23
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One question on phase two on deathwing.. I'm guessing the big adds are CC immune, can't be slowed, knocked back, etc.. right?

It seems the second pair just comes and eat the tanks for breakfast with the high damage by this point, this is around 10% or so, would it be possible to have a druid or shaman hold them in place for a few seconds while we burn the boss?

JB9
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JB9

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Can be slowed by the yellow zones, you guys need to swap and burn probably 1 more set of adds.

hsindogg
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join:2002-06-21
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Heroic Morchok down, 25 man. Compared to Heroic Firelands, the first boss was much harder (than Shannox).

Heavy heavy healing/tank cooldown coordination.

The0_o
join:2011-06-15
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Madness of deathwing - Fight
Click for full size
Madness of Deathwing - what you want it to be
Kinda On Topic :

Just cleared Madness of Deathwing in LFR yesterday. took 2 wipes. People didnt understand the fight (platform and kill order), had a brutal 2% wipe on the last claw due to DW's AOE.

after the Kill i have to say, the fight was very lackluster, i didnt feel like i was fighting an Aspect, An aspect empowered by an Old God. Felt more like i was giving him a pedicure rather than fighting him.

When you fought the Lich king, you FOUGHT the Lich King, he was there swing at you, summoning ghouls and Valkyries, spreading death and disease.

DW was adds, adds and more ADDS all day long. never felt like your fighting DW

Suniojii
join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA

Suniojii

Member

You fought him on LFR. By design, LFR fights are not going to be that difficult. LFR was implemented to give casual gamers a chance to experience raiding for the simple sake of seeing the expansion content.
Arsinic
join:2011-02-17
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The lackluster feel of the DW encounter was the same impression I was left with after killing it in 10 man last week( and posted how lame it was here)

On a different note, I just want to say how stupid H Morchok was, our raid team was decimmated by now shows, people in the hospital and whatnot so we had to rag tag guild friends in, which forced us to 4 heal 10 man H Morchok.

3 healing was going pretty bad for the 2 holy paladins and disc that we had. So I got off my rogue(QQ no shadowy gems for the boss) hopped on my disc priest and 1 shot the stupid fight.

Basically healing is pretty brutal with 2 healers 3 made it almost doable as long as rng would play nice(it didn't) 4 healing wasn't all that difficult and the berserk timer is still pretty easy to meet with 50% of the raid in BiS FL gear +... stupid fight is stupid

JB9
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JB9

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For 10H Morchok I did read 4 healers as well. Grats. Hopefully this doesn't translate into 8 healers in 25man. WTB Decent hybrids.

We cleared 6 bosses last night, improvement from our 4 last week. So we get 2 full days for spine+madness; hope to be 8/8 at the end of the week.
djlar
join:2009-04-23
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We are still wiping on 25M Ultraxion.. the level of retardness of some our raders is very high..

HIT THE FLIPPIN' BUTTON!, they want to squeeze an extra second of DPS which leads to dead DPS = wipe..

I was able to improve my own DPS from last week from 35K to 36K, not much I could do with 3+ people dead (after bresses).

We are losing a minimun of 6 people per attempt, some people can't do more than 25K DPS on a patchwerk fight.

Sadly our first try was 5%, the next hour of attempts we didn't even came close to 10%.. that was how bad the raid was..

Very dissapointed right now after stomping thru the first 4 bosses with ease.

Some people did the "I have lag" excuse, srsly 5 sec lag?

JB9
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JB9

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Lol, I started calling people out after wipe #2. Lost a couple of people on #3. Pull #4 was perfect, maybe 1 person died. Killed it with ease. At the end I said, see how much easier it is when everyone is alive?

You may have the same problem we were having, people were wayyyyy too comfortable with their raid spots. Doing some extra recruiting and benching some of those people that thought it was OK to die a lot and not pay attention, they sure shaped up quick.

I know it's a game but when you're 1 of the few people that aren't paying attention or not doing the things you need to do (repeatedly, I might add); well you're just wasting everyone else's time and action needs to be taken.

Turn off recount, it is such a laggy piece of shit.
djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228

djlar

Member

I'm personally using Skada, I don't have any lag issues, and my PC is not that good (Core i3, 6GB of RAM, old grafx card)

Heck our main tank has a core 2 duo with much less ram and lower end grafx card and he doesn't have these issues..

The lag issue is being overused right now to cover lack of attention.

The night ended in a recruit rogue being kicked from the guild, he was dying every attempt either he missed hour or fading light.
he was called out, he raged out and called names on vent and gchat, I think he whispered even more nastier things to the GM and got kicked..

Goodmongo
join:2011-10-21
Schaumburg, IL

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said by Suniojii:

You fought him on LFR. By design, LFR fights are not going to be that difficult. LFR was implemented to give casual gamers a chance to experience raiding for the simple sake of seeing the expansion content.

LFR fights are easier but his comment was about the DW fight was against adds and didn't feel like you are fighting DW himself.

All previous end bosses were fights against the boss. Adds were there to complicate things. You still had to kill the boss. DW just doesn't give you that same feel.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

One thing it seems people are forgetting is scale, trying not to rehash mechanics, and previous dragon fights.

Scale: Biggest boss we've ever "killed."
Mechanics: Trying to make the fight unique and more of a set piece rather than a loot pinata. Hence the Spine / Madness aspects.
Previously on Dragons: When was the last time a dragon was really a unique fight? Breath. Check. Cleave? Check. Tail Swipe? Check. Ground Phase and Air Phase? Check and check. Some kind of "get out of this" or "break that" or "kill the whelp" mechanics? Check. Some type or add phase? Sure why not.

Deathwing, both versions, while not totally unique, is a different type of encounter and accomplishes something on the scale that we only got a glimpse of with Sunwell.
Arsinic
join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA

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If people are dying to HoT then they are just bad. Like JB said thoguh raid spots on the line can probably solve this.

The trade pug I did last week wiped about 6 times on this fight(The bad disc died every attempt to HoT and 2 dpsers swapped which attempt they would suck at it).

Once the raid leader basically said 'hey, I invited people because they weren't shitty players, If you want to continue being shitty players you're gone thats it... Next person to die to an hour of twilight is gone, any questions? Good..'

Needless to say the next attempt was flawless, guess people wanted to keep riding the gravy train to loots, as that was really the only hiccup iin the run. Make your raiders aware that you aren't afraid to sit them for someone that can react faster then 6 secs.

The0_o
join:2011-06-15
Silver Spring, MD

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said by Adalicia:

One thing it seems people are forgetting is scale, trying not to rehash mechanics, and previous dragon fights.

Scale: Biggest boss we've ever "killed."
Mechanics: Trying to make the fight unique and more of a set piece rather than a loot pinata. Hence the Spine / Madness aspects.
Previously on Dragons: When was the last time a dragon was really a unique fight? Breath. Check. Cleave? Check. Tail Swipe? Check. Ground Phase and Air Phase? Check and check. Some kind of "get out of this" or "break that" or "kill the whelp" mechanics? Check. Some type or add phase? Sure why not.

Deathwing, both versions, while not totally unique, is a different type of encounter and accomplishes something on the scale that we only got a glimpse of with Sunwell.

First off i love your posts, it is a pleasure to see your insight into the lore, gameplay, etc (and yea i know you're a dude).

Its just the fight didnt feel like you where fighting the "Big Bad". Remember stopping the LK from using you to take over the world or preventing the summoning of KT or Yogg or like all of Ulduar.
All those bosses had a "Do or die feel to them", the encounter pulled you into the lore, made you sweat, made you cry, made you FEEL.

DW gave me nothing, Hell you dont even deliver the final blow. Green superman did, But I guess it's a trade off between having

A unique Lore filled, action movie style encounter that leaves you with the same feeling you get when you over tip a hooker.
or
A silly Overpowered Boss not one-shooting you because that would not be a fun raid so lets give him a Breath, Cleave, Tail Swipe, Ground Phase and Air Phase

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

Well, I believe there is a "do or die" feel, it just has been lost in translation. So much of this expansion has, to be honest, and unlike Arthas popping in every five minutes like a bad comic book villain we've seen very little of Deathwing in all seriousness.

In the new five man instances you get a glimpse of what the future could potentially hold should Deathwing not fall to our hands, and even Nozdormu and Murozond says "this is but a glimpse of the horrors we face," and goes on to say we're lucky we're only getting a shadow of what is really in store for us if we fail. Seems pretty important to me.

I mean, if any expansion has had an epic "do or die" moment, it was the Burning Crusade, and even then it wasn't intended content but rather content that was meant to bridge the gap between TBC and Wrath of the Lich King. The Sunwell. The events that transpire there are pretty fucking big and if there ever was a moment in WoW that embodied that philosophy it was when Kil'Jaeden was climbing out of the Sindeori equivalent of the Well of Eternity.

Sure, when you're storming the halls of Icecrown Citadel it feels epic, I won't deny that, but it isn't a do or die moment. If we failed there, sure, there would be consequences, but the entire citadel was surrounded.

"RISE UP ARGENT CRUSADERS! THE HOUR OF JUSTICE HAS COME!"

I mean, it is easy to believe Arthas was a world destroyer, and in earlier times he was but now? Not really. He blew his chance during the Third War, getting to the Frozen Throne and then he became complacent. He has a bit of a party in Azeroth, and the Scourge are certainly a problem, but we go to HIM, not the other way around. Fall of the Lich King felt like a desperate last stand and us kicking down the door and taking care of buisness.

Did it feel epic?

"Can you feel it my son, closing in all around you? The Light's Justice has been awakened. The sins of the past have finally caught up to you. You will be called to account for all the atrocities you've committed, all the unspeakable horrors you've let loose upon this world and the dark ancient powers you've enslaved. Though my soul was one of the first to be devoured by your evil there are thousands more bound within this blade and they cry out for release.

Look now to your defenses my son for the champions of justice gather at your gates."

"Let them come. Frostmourne hungers."

Of course. But I think that this expansion, and more specifically the Dragon Soul and show down with Deathwing should as well.

Goodmongo
join:2011-10-21
Schaumburg, IL

Goodmongo

Member

said by Adalicia:

"this is but a glimpse of the horrors we face,"

I wonder if they can be sued by JRR Tolkien's estate for ripping off dialogue? I know there are a limited number of ways to say things but so much of this lately have been almost direct word for word quotes.