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bfksc
Unlimited on Distributel

join:2011-11-22
Toronto, ON
reply to InvalidError

Re: [Extreme] Using Moto SB5100 with Rogers Extreme

said by InvalidError:

And at the other end of the "luck scale", you have people who can't do more than 1-5Mbps during peak hours on their 15+Mbps service.

That should change starting tomorrow...


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

Yup, tomorrow there will be people who can only do 1-5 Mbps on the 50 or even 100 Mbps service. Hahaha!


Fuzzy Dunlop

join:2011-02-07
Toronto, ON

An update to my earlier post about Robbers High Speed Extreme Internet and DOCSIS 2 modems:

I phoned Robbers CS yesterday to request a credit to my account and to downgrade my Extreme service to Express. I was transferred to Billing, who told me it was a Tech Support issue, who transferred me to Tech Support, who then told me it was a Billing issue, then told me to visit Robbers Plus to have the matter resolved.

Drove to Robbers Plus today, who told me they couldn't do anything. I demanded they call Robbers CS from the store. Robbers CS refused to talk to me or even transfer me to a supervisor because I had forgotten my Rogers PIN at home – even though I was standing in their store with government photo ID matching the primary account holder! The Robbers Plus rep eventually talked the CSR person into dealing with me, only to tell me that Tech Support could not handle my request, and again(!) transferring me to Billing, who then transferred me to Customer Relations! Confused yet?

Customer Relations guy's demeanour varied between curtness and sarcasm. He admitted I was put on a grandfathered Extreme plan, at the same rate as new Extreme Plus customers (whose download speeds are 10mbps faster than mine), arguing that mine was a better deal because I didn't have to pay the modem rental fee (because I had already purchased my DOCSIS 2!). I said I thought their policy of treating newer customers better than old ones sucked and that I was thinking about switching ISPs.

He refused to offer a credit to my account or give me a new modem, and instead offered me a "promotion": $40/month off my Robbers bill for the next 2 years, provided I enter into an unwritten contract with Robbers CSR. I repeated my demand for a $199 credit (the value of the DOCSIS 3 modem), and emphasized that I thought it more than fair given the circumstances. His response, verbatim:

"I've been working in Customer Relations for 3 years and I don't know of anyone in our department who would consider what you're asking for 'fair.'"
My response:

I think you've been working in the wrong department. I want my Internet service downgraded from Extreme to Express effective immediately. I will be cancelling my Rogers Internet and switching to TekSavvy as of the end of the month. Goodbye.
I've been a Rogers customer for 20 years, yet I feel oddly relieved by this experience. Robbers treated me badly, but it's driven me to dump them for service provider with a moral compass (TekSavvy). And that's a good thing.


bfksc
Unlimited on Distributel

join:2011-11-22
Toronto, ON

said by Fuzzy Dunlop:

I've been a Rogers customer for 20 years, yet I feel oddly relieved by this experience. Robbers treated me badly, but it's driven me to dump them for service provider with a moral compass (TekSavvy). And that's a good thing.

Welcome to the "I dumped Rogers" camp.

The weird thing about your request for a credit is that it's less than ONE FOURTH of his offer of $40/mth off ($960). I guess his math isn't very good and he didn't realize that your basic request is a much better deal for Rogers. DUH.

Oh well...looks good on them...

Fuzzy Dunlop

join:2011-02-07
Toronto, ON

1 edit

said by bfksc :

The weird thing about your request for a credit is that it's less than ONE FOURTH of his offer of $40/mth off ($960). I guess his math isn't very good and he didn't realize that your basic request is a much better deal for Rogers. DUH.

You would think that. However I've read enough horror stories from Robbers customers who've entered into similar unwritten contracts only to have them reneged upon that I know better than agree to any "promotional offers". I believe this guy said it best:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4


sine

@rogers.com
reply to tdot_rc

just want to make it clear, all these dudes that appear to know what they're talking about saying that a "CSR" has to provision your modem is false. modem provisioning on cable internet is an automatic thing, and powercycling your modem (aka turning off and on again :P) is how you get it re-provisioned.

I was looking at this topic because it was suggested to me from a rogers rep when I was cancelling for teksavvy that on the 12/.5 connection I have if I got the doc 3.0 modem my speeds would be faster, but I'm getting up to 30Mb/s anyway on my SB5100.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

Actually sine, provisioning is a multi-stage process.

The first is step is getting the modem in Rogers registered modems list (if your modem came from other than Rogers)

The second step is Rogers putting your modem in the authorized DHCP lists for the servers and associating it with an account profile

The third step that is NORMALLY automated, is to push the account profile which will essentially do a reset.

The CSRs can do a reset and reassociate your modem with an account profile ... sometimes the required profile entry in the database gets messed up so the wrong profile gets pushed. They can reassociate a profile then push that it in case the modem isn't working as expected. This is what people generally mean when the CSR reprovisions your modem.

If you are on a cable segment with few modems, and your speed has been set faster, you can indeed get up to 38 Mbps with a DOCSIS 2 modem like the SB5100. But the segments with more modems (which is most of them) will suffer speed sag, and under those conditions, you would be way better off with DOCSIS 3. Moreover, the other people on your segment would be happier if you had DOCSIS 3 too particularly if you download at full speed at peak hours!


Fuzzy Dunlop

join:2011-02-07
Toronto, ON

sbrook is right (he always is lol).

However the exact process of provisioning a modem is neither here nor there, since Rogers are the ultimate gate-keepers. Regardless of whether or not modems like the SB6120 will work on Rogers' network, we'll never know, since no CSR I've ever spoken to will authorize one. You don't have to look hard online to find sob stories from customers who've shelled out $150 for a third-party DOCSIS 3 modem, only to be told they can't use it.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

And the really sad part about Rogers not enabling other DOCSIS modems is that they can and do provision them for 3rd party providers like TSI, Distributel etc!


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by sbrook:

And the really sad part about Rogers not enabling other DOCSIS modems is that they can and do provision them for 3rd party providers like TSI, Distributel etc!

If you put yourself in Rogers' shoes, you might not want the cost overhead, complexity and potential confusion of supporting a dozen extra combinations of manufacturers and models either. Although TPIAs will usually accept any modem on the cableco's approved list unless the cable rejects it for some reason (lost, stolen, non-returned, known-bad, etc.), most TPIA ISPs themselves only recommend, sell and lease 1-2 models themselves as well.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to tdot_rc

Well, there's good reason for the shortened lists of available modems now! *New* DOCSIS 2 modems are becoming like Hen's teeth to find, and there are very few D3 modems in the open market. Many of the D3 modems are sold only to MSOs (cable operators), and the MSOs are in exclusivity deals with the modem manufacturers. That's why Rogers was selling only the SMC gateways for over a year until they brought in the Cisco modems.



hurleyp

join:2000-06-20
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to tdot_rc

It looks like I'm in the same boat. I bought a SB5100 in 2004. Somewhere along the way, Rogers grandfathered me to a 10 Mbps profile and started charging me for the 24 Mbps Extreme package. It looks like I'll have to start exploring my options.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."


Fuzzy Dunlop

join:2011-02-07
Toronto, ON
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

If you put yourself in Rogers' shoes, you might not want the cost overhead, complexity and potential confusion of supporting a dozen extra combinations of manufacturers and models either. Although TPIAs will usually accept any modem on the cableco's approved list unless the cable rejects it for some reason (lost, stolen, non-returned, known-bad, etc.), most TPIA ISPs themselves only recommend, sell and lease 1-2 models themselves as well.

I remember the "it's too complicated" excuse from the early days of Rogers cable Internet service, back when CSR's would refuse to provide any support if you were using a router (I'm not kidding). I don't have an IT degree but even I find it hard to believe that two major brand DOCSIS 3 modems could be so different technically to justify barring one from your network. As sbrook said, Rogers CSRs won't provision third party modems for Rogers customers yet they will do just that if one of their wholesale customers asks for it. To me that says more about Rogers attitude toward customer relations than it does about anything technical. Rogers would rather have you pay them $200 and buy their approved hardware than run the risk of having to actually exert itself in fielding the occasional above average service request. This is the limit beyond which the company ceases to listen to its customers. Only when those customers are multi-million-dollar wholesale accounts will Rogers flex its customer relations muscle.
said by hurleyp:

It looks like I'm in the same boat. I bought a SB5100 in 2004. Somewhere along the way, Rogers grandfathered me to a 10 Mbps profile and started charging me for the 24 Mbps Extreme package. It looks like I'll have to start exploring my options.

Don't wait until the next billing cycle to take action. I downgraded to Express and honestly I can't tell the difference. If you can live with the lower bandwidth cap until you get a new ISP, go for it.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by Fuzzy Dunlop:

As sbrook said, Rogers CSRs won't provision third party modems for Rogers customers yet they will do just that if one of their wholesale customers asks for it.

Same goes for Videotron, Shaw and most other cablecos, they only support devices they sell/rent, anyone using anything else is on their own. Cablecos have fewer reserves about supporting other modems for TPIA because they do not need to deal with level-1 tech support for them and the TPIA ISP is the one eating the cost of modem replacements and truck rolls when the cableco determines that the modem was the cause of problems.


hurleyp

join:2000-06-20
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to tdot_rc

I spoke with "Nick" at Rogers tech support. First of all, he recommended running a speed test without the router. IOW, connect your PC directly to the SB5100. Second, the speed test site he recommended www.speedtest.net gives different results from the speed tests here at DSLR.

The big thing about speedtest.net is that it will run a test from a server that it determines is physically close to you. This will, naturally enough, give an optimal result -- not necessarily a real world result. But the result it gives for me of (roughly) 30 Mbps/1Mbps is certainly in line with the "Extreme" package. And it's reporting much higher download speeds than the flash DSLR speed test reported for me. (Running the DSLR test without the router gave slightly faster results than the same test with the router. I'm not sure why, but I'll investigate when I have some spare time.)

So for me at least, I seem to be on the correct Rogers profile and I am getting very acceptable speeds with the SB5100. This is not to say Rogers has not misconfigured other people, but it does highlight the inconsistent nature of various speed tests across the Intertubes.

Do your research before calling Rogers -- it might save you some aggravation.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

This is useful ...

»Rogers HiSpeed FAQ »How can I check my Performance with Speedtests

It's important to remember that generally speaking, if you get a good On Network, or Near Network speedtest, but you get a crappy far network (and DSLR's speedtests are decidedly "far network") test, then the chances are very high that the lack of good performance has nothing to do with Rogers.

It would be like driving Toronto to Buffalo and blaming Toronto for the traffic jam going across the bridge between Fort Erie and Buffalo!

Near or on-network speedtests are for checking your actual connection speed. Far or Remote tests give you an indication of the quality of the path to remote destinations. Just remember that there are multiple paths to the same geographic area ... so your test may not give the same result as going to some other site located in same place.



bfksc
Unlimited on Distributel

join:2011-11-22
Toronto, ON

said by sbrook:

It's important to remember that generally speaking, if you get a good On Network, or Near Network speedtest, but you get a crappy far network (and DSLR's speedtests are decidedly "far network") test, then the chances are very high that the lack of good performance has nothing to do with Rogers.

Also note that Rogers has a feature called SpeedBoost technology that can give your connection about double the download speed for the first 10MB of data you transfer during each test. SpeedTest.net gives an average speed based on peak and continuous speeds during every test, so it's not always an accurate way to measure your rated tier speeds.

To check your rated continuous speeds, use a large file like a Linux distro as mentioned and look at the download speeds after a few minutes. I have a utility called DUMeter which gives me both a grahical and numeric display showing actual speeds. I can see that my 24/1mbps connection peaks at ~51mbps for a few seconds as SpeedBoost kicks in and hums along at ~25mbps on longer downloads. This is with a DCM475 DOCSIS 3 modem. With the older SB5101 the best peak I could get was ~32mbps as the modem couldn't handle the higher speeds.

Info on SpeedBoost can be found here:

»www.rogers.com/web/content/speedboostonsb

"SpeedBoost™ detects when there is available bandwidth on the network and automatically provides a temporary burst of speed for the first 10 MB of a download or stream - so content loads faster."

Fuzzy Dunlop

join:2011-02-07
Toronto, ON
reply to hurleyp

said by hurleyp:

So for me at least, I seem to be on the correct Rogers profile and I am getting very acceptable speeds with the SB5100. This is not to say Rogers has not misconfigured other people, but it does highlight the inconsistent nature of various speed tests across the Intertubes.

Are you on High Speed Extreme? If so you are not getting the speeds you're paying for, so long as you have a DOCSIS 2 modem. The issue for me was never about speed as much as it was/is about principle; namely, that Rogers is treating new customers on the same tier (i.e. people who rented/bought a DOCSIS 3 gateway) differently than old customers. DOCSIS 2 Extreme+ customers on grandfathered plans should have been notified of the need to get a new modem to receive the increased speeds, been offered incentives to upgrade, and/or had their rates reduced to reflect to reflect the reduced level of service offered by the grandfathered plans. Rogers never notified me of the change in service. On the contrary, the CSR told me that it was "my responsibility" to remain up-to-date on changes to Rogers' service plans.


hurleyp

join:2000-06-20
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by Fuzzy Dunlop:

Are you on High Speed Extreme? If so you are not getting the speeds you're paying for, so long as you have a DOCSIS 2 modem. The issue for me was never about speed as much as it was/is about principle; namely, that Rogers is treating new customers on the same tier (i.e. people who rented/bought a DOCSIS 3 gateway) differently than old customers. DOCSIS 2 Extreme+ customers on grandfathered plans should have been notified of the need to get a new modem to receive the increased speeds, been offered incentives to upgrade, and/or had their rates reduced to reflect to reflect the reduced level of service offered by the grandfathered plans. Rogers never notified me of the change in service. On the contrary, the CSR told me that it was "my responsibility" to remain up-to-date on changes to Rogers' service plans.

Yes, I am on High Speed Extreme (not extreme "plus"). For the moment I am reasonably satisfied with my service even though I still have questions about the "real world" speeds. Note too that I purchased the modem in 2004, making the modem the oldest piece of hardware I have in active use. Since *I* own the modem, it is not unreasonable for Rogers to expect me to keep up to date (or not), even if they are not always entirely clear on the technical details. Modem rental customers might be treated differently.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."